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Fair enough, and if you are correct about the other riders behind Webb also jumping a little, and I'm going to assume you are correct for the sake of argument, then I think they should be penalized as well. At some point though you are right, it does become ridiculous to measure inches in such a fast passed sport, but I do think it's pretty clear at least Webb was around 1 or 2 feet off the ground well inside the ride flag area. If I'm on the board who makes these decisions for the AMA, then I would have to say Webb is getting a point penalty as well, if only for the sake of you cant brake or steer without contact with the ground. It only made it worse that Webb brought it up about Chase on his own during the podium interview. That's just me. Live by the sword, die by the sword I suppose. For all we know, Webb might not even know it HAS to be wheels on the ground, and maybe just slowing down and rolling is enough? Either way, one can see why in this case many will think it's Roger having an influence over the AMA. And perhaps he deserves that in some way, he is a legend and is well respected. In point of fact, I too would probably have petitioned for a penalty to Chase. It's just human nature to do that for his own team. That still doesn't erase something his rider may have done. We often fail to see our own mistakes or at least we try to justify them. I think it's pretty clear Webb is the only rider square in the "grey area," if you will, with wheels off the ground at 1 to 2 ft, and Tomac and Barcia being mere inches. Barcia and Tomac and their respective teams didn't bring it up as far as I know. I wouldn't put it past Star, and really Barcia is still under the KTM umbrella. At this point, we don't even know if Roger petitioned, we only know Webb mentioned it. Perhaps some hard questions from a media that isn't under obligation to appease sponsors and/or parent companies who pay their salaries... oops, that was a foolish thing to say, now I've opened up a whole new set of problems!
Good discussion thus far between us. Appreciated.
Where does it say "WHEELS ON THE GROUND"? I keep seeing "take each obstacle individually". Nothing about wheels on the ground..
Is a "wheels on the ground" thing stemming from amateur racing?
I agree good/clean discussion. This board needs more of that. (i'm guilty of going off sometimes myself)
If AMA comes out tomorrow and docks Webb after further review, so be it. But then Barcia and Tomac deserve to be docked too.
Chase's move was just so egregious. He kinda did the same thing Webb did going over the first jump...he caught about the same amount of air, rolled the next jump, then lauched the last.
I have to believe if he hadn't launched that last jump, this thread would not exist today even though all 4 guys wheels were off the ground at various heights.
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Really good point after watching the video MAV posted. Nowhere does it say "wheels on the ground".
Interesting.
Chase also saying "he felt he was in the right" sure didn't help his case.
here is my question.
Why is the penalty for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd more then lets say 5th? 6th?
Isn't the safety of riders from 5th to 20th the same as the front runners?
Seems a little skewed as aren't all the riders on the track equally starting on the line together, their safety should be enforced equally. Money and points are much more hitting hard on the front. guess the system is needed a look over?
also. why is there a red light on an obstacle that has no danger on the back side of it? Pretty damn sure when a rider has another rider coming directly at them on the track, that a red light on a jump top isn't what a rider is looking at? want to make these lights NOT MATTER like a YELLOW FLAG now doesn't matter? turn it on with no reason behind it.
When this crap happens like specially the yellow flag devaluation, it affects all our racing pro and amateur.
He jumped on a red, no argument. I didn't realize that the the rule book was skewed towards this process like that. a Majority of these riders grew up racing and watching for flags. When they cleared the incident they could race. Lights are going to be even more important as this sport goes further on, but they need to be run correctly.
I do this stuff all year long and 7 days a week in the winter time. I ran "lights" last night. but they only come on when a rider is down and in harms way. NOt to even out competition.
Am i second guessing who and how they did it, damn straight yellow flags are often waived all over the place. for what? better yet maybe blue flags need more attention.........................................
flame on.
I beleive the video is more a summarized review of the rules for the layperson...I will admit I do not know the specific rules other than the screenshot that was posted a few pages back that listed AMA rules for red cross flags, which did specifically say "wheels cannot leave the ground". If it is only the rules listed in the video posted by Mav, then I agree Webb did not violate the rule. The video may not be complete though, as it is clearly not written in "lawyer speak", no offense to any lawyers out there.
I will retract my statement about a point penalty being applied against Webb until further investigation. Can someone who is more versed in the official AMA rules give us a link to the regulations?
Page 28:
https://amasupercross.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/2023-AMA-Supercross-Rulebook.pdf
No wheels on ground language in the rule, I learned something new today. And no offense taken.
Great post, thanks. Yes, it is something how so many say what is in a rule and turns out to be wrong.
Nice comment and helpful. Thanks. Ahhh, but so many here "want" Webb to be in the wrong so, you know...
Chase was just wrong...easy to see. You don't decide for yourself what to do if the two flashing red lights are on. You just don't jump. Pretty simple! How Chase says he was 'confused' is a stupid comment. I like Chase a lot but come on!
Mind blown - I came to accept it was wheels on the ground and that we are arguing about inches of clearance on Webb's jump and it turns out:
The riders must do all the obstacles individually, I.E. NO
double, triple, step on/off, etc. until clear of the incident
And the kicker get out of jail free card (maybe) : If Race Direction determines that there was a blatant (i.e. you should have seen it but you sent it anyways) violation of this rule, then.....
Well, that kinda blows the narrative. I wonder how many on here blaming DeCoster for this mess have the salt to apologize... I've seen a couple have changed their stance of wanting Webb penalized and that's good but, some of the Wiley Coyote geniuses that believe DeCoster is the Klaus Schwab of moto and controls the AMA, Feld, track crews, pit parking assignments etc, need to examine their hate.
While I didn't blame Roger, I did accept the wheels on the ground rule from a post that had a screenshot listing AMA rules that looked pretty official. I will not make that mistake again! I accept that wheels on the ground is NOT in the current rules and I was wrong. Was it a rule before and has it been changed I wonder, or is that amateur racing...? Regardless of that fact, Webb did not do anything wrong and should not receive a points penalty. Case closed for me, now I can go back to rooting for Eli to win the Championship anyway and for Barcia to get banned from racing professionally. Sarcasm of course!
I don't want to beat a dead horse, and the rules are clear now for white with red cross flags during a Supercross event, but I knew there must be an explanation for why so many of us thought it was wheels on the ground. That is the current rule for MOTOCROSS according to the official AMA rules. https://americanmotorcyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/23_AMA_Raci…
WHITE WITH RED CROSS: Indicates that ambulances, safety vehicles or emergency personnel may be on the Course. Competitors must show extreme caution, slow down, maintain position, not gain an advantage and wheels of the motorcycle must not leave the ground between the flag and the incident. Failure to do so may result in loss of position or a disqualification, subject to the referee's discretion.
Interesting that they are different...maybe that should be changed to provide more consistency 🤔
Also note, I am not arguing Webb should be penalized, he didn't violate the current rules.
What changed from when RD was docked 5 points?
(2 spots / win taken away)
https://racerxonline.com/2016/03/19/ryan-dungey-penalized-jason-anderso…
The rule
so the fine for this jump on a red light that shouldn't have been on in the first place is right at $9500.00. And deduction of 7 points.
If you did this in 12th place it would be 4 points and 100.00.
anyone see the problem with this?
Is the safety of a rider in 12th less valuable then a ride in the top 3?
No one argues the fact he jumped it but lets have penalties that are equal to all the riders
Seems to me the people writing rules need to figure out that rules need to be applied equally to all riders across the board.
Pit Row
The penalty is the result of Chase deciding to break the rule. If Chase would have decided to obey the rule everyone did, what the penalty amounts to would never be debated. It all starts with Chase and his decision making, which he admits to. How would we all feel if there was another rider laying down that Chase couldn't see, and he get's struck by Chase and they both get injured? It can not be up to the riders to determine rules or penalties as they go.
no one is arguing that point. and haven't since it happend.
the fact is the penalty is wrong. all the riders on the line should face the same penalty. not have it based on finish position.
I will argue that the red light was left on after the rider who wasn't even on the back side got up and was riding the wrong direction on the track (which by the way he caused the red cross flag then he rode through the red cross flag) why the hell is the light on in the first place and why wasn't it shut off when he was up and moving out of the way? I wonder what the penalty was for riding backwards on the track and riding through your own red flag?
So . If he was up and going, why was the red light on? I bet i know the answer but it's done. Just tired of seeing the process be how it is.
kept my mouth shut on so much of this kind of stuff this one stands out to much. and yep i am a chase guy. but no matter who it is the next time, penalty needs to fit the process and fair equally across the board. if a rider jumps red in 15th place then it should be 7 points and 9500.00. bet that dont' cut it does it.?
I totally understand what you are saying, the points aren't fair if you break the rules. My point was don't break the rules then, simply abide as everyone else does. The moment Chase decided it was his decision that mattered and not the event organizers on what was safe or not he took the control of his points away from himself. The penalty needs to be more severe for front runners and first place finishers to make certain they abide by the rules. And even then it wasn't enough for Chase to abide by the rules, he has as much said he doesn't care he still got the win and that is all that matters. One has to wonder if he will still continue to do this or at least again, he is totally unapologetic. It is typical of many of the current entitled generation, the rules are wrong - I am right kind of thing. So many throw total fits at block passes and demand penalties for rough riding, but Chase's infraction is black and white. He could of hit a course worker or medical staff tucked in on the back side of the landing ramp.
5 pages with the pitch fork out for Coop before any of you decide to actually read the rule book.
Classic Vital
Nobody from what I have seen has had any pitchforks out, in point of fact we have all agreed Webb shouldn't be penalized. The issue of "reading the rulebook" for me was confusing the current standing AMA supercross and motocross rules that are different for the EXACT same flag. Read my post above and you'll see that AMA motocross rules do indeed state "wheels on the ground". That is the only "pitchfork," if you could even call it that, for Webb in this whole thread. I've already stated I like both riders for different reasons.
What we have all been saying in one way or another is we would like to see more consistency from the AMA, and I don't think anyone could argue that they are the most consistent governing body from any sport.
The points taken away from riders for this infraction should be more for higher placings because of win and championship bonus structures. If a rider has a choice between losing 7 points or a $100,000 win bonus he might not care about the points so much to go for the cash, and dismiss the rules, which Chase did. With a $500,000-$1,000,000 championship bonus on the line Sexton will care even less the next time he decides to break this rule. Which by his own admission is his decision to make evidently. If he can win this championship breaking this rule, the rule has no teeth. No body cares about a 10th place bonus, do they? The important point of all of this is Chase admitted he decided to break this rule, it is not like he didn't see the flags, and he has no remorse or regrets or apologies to anyone. He has stated, paraphrasing, that yes he broke the rule, he knows it, but he is right.
^ Wilfully breaking rules is usually called cheating.
They are two different entities. AMA Pro racing and AMA are completely separate and mostly unrelated.
Exactly!
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