Simple 2 stroke rule question for pro racing. Same since 2003

Justthefacts
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Justthefacts
Can anyone logically explain why they can't atleast let a 150cc and 300cc rule be placed in the rulebook. My gosh, it's been 20 years. Can you atleast admit, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki, that you'd be ok with 150 and 300s? Are you still afraid after 20 years, that a 150 and 300 are actually a threat? I mean, EVERYONE gets you're scared of the equal placement. But by golly, 20 years and can't even go to 150 and 300cc? Just shameful.
Anyhoo, off to no where land for another 5 or so years of not posting here.
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flarider
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flarider 2/20/2022 10:27am
2/20/2022 10:27am
Honestly, no, no one can explain it

Seriously
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Leave Us To
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Leave Us To 2/20/2022 5:00pm
2/20/2022 5:00pm
Never will happen in the US but odds go slightly up to probably never for MXGP and MX2 for 300cc and 150cc two strokes.
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Moto520 2/20/2022 5:37pm
2/20/2022 5:37pm
Manufacturer influence
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Justthefacts
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Justthefacts 2/20/2022 7:31pm
2/20/2022 7:31pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2022 7:34pm
Moto520 wrote:
Manufacturer influence
Here's the thing. All I've heard for 20 years, is "not all the manufacturers make a 150 or 300. Ummm, the only reason that would matter, is if the manufacturers are scared of the little 150 or 300. Because if they weren't, that would mean it wouldn't matter if 1 or 5 manufacturers made them. If the 250fart and 450farts were so dominant, the little 150 and 300 wouldn't even be a thought... They'd say, let them race, they can't touch the 250/450 anyways, so let the pros race them if they want to be so underpowered.
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CPR
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CPR 2/20/2022 7:54pm
2/20/2022 7:54pm
Justthefacts wrote:
Can anyone logically explain why they can't atleast let a 150cc and 300cc rule be placed in the rulebook. My gosh, it's been 20 years. Can...
Can anyone logically explain why they can't atleast let a 150cc and 300cc rule be placed in the rulebook. My gosh, it's been 20 years. Can you atleast admit, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki, that you'd be ok with 150 and 300s? Are you still afraid after 20 years, that a 150 and 300 are actually a threat? I mean, EVERYONE gets you're scared of the equal placement. But by golly, 20 years and can't even go to 150 and 300cc? Just shameful.
Anyhoo, off to no where land for another 5 or so years of not posting here.
That rule change is simply not worth the effort, just make it equal displacement and be done with it.
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Justthefacts
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Justthefacts 2/20/2022 8:00pm
2/20/2022 8:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2022 8:01pm
Justthefacts wrote:
Can anyone logically explain why they can't atleast let a 150cc and 300cc rule be placed in the rulebook. My gosh, it's been 20 years. Can...
Can anyone logically explain why they can't atleast let a 150cc and 300cc rule be placed in the rulebook. My gosh, it's been 20 years. Can you atleast admit, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki, that you'd be ok with 150 and 300s? Are you still afraid after 20 years, that a 150 and 300 are actually a threat? I mean, EVERYONE gets you're scared of the equal placement. But by golly, 20 years and can't even go to 150 and 300cc? Just shameful.
Anyhoo, off to no where land for another 5 or so years of not posting here.
CPR wrote:
That rule change is simply not worth the effort, just make it equal displacement and be done with it.
I mean, we all know that's the way it should be. But that will never happen. It's a known fact that they never wanted 2 competing bikes for each manufacturer. They never wanted the 2 stroke to survive. I mean think about that for a moment. Having 2 competing sizes for each model. 125/250 and 250/450. I remember when that was being sold to us. Oh, they aren't trying to kill off the 2 strokes. I'm like, umm sure. Anyways, since we all know it will never happen. We should be atleast be able to expect something that they aren't scared of. Like the 150 and 300 rule. You know, like 20 years later...
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burn1986
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burn1986 2/20/2022 8:30pm
2/20/2022 8:30pm
We’ve all wanted this change, but it just won’t happen. Honda doesn’t want 2-strokes period, much less a favorable 2-stroke rule change. They’ve made it clear to the US promoters. That’s the just if it.

Honda has a large presence in the Nationals and funds a lot of stuff. If they pulled out if the series, it would potentially damage USMX.
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CPR
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CPR 2/20/2022 9:30pm
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burn1986 wrote:
We’ve all wanted this change, but it just won’t happen. Honda doesn’t want 2-strokes period, much less a favorable 2-stroke rule change. They’ve made it clear...
We’ve all wanted this change, but it just won’t happen. Honda doesn’t want 2-strokes period, much less a favorable 2-stroke rule change. They’ve made it clear to the US promoters. That’s the just if it.

Honda has a large presence in the Nationals and funds a lot of stuff. If they pulled out if the series, it would potentially damage USMX.
Honda may have had a tantrum and pulled that threat 20 years ago, but does anyone seriously believe they would leave the sport altogether now?
If they did, it’d be to their own detriment.
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ccullins 2/20/2022 10:33pm
2/20/2022 10:33pm
I 100% agree that it should be equal displacement and the manufactures shouldn’t at all be worried about it. Look at the 250 pro classes at off-road races like GNCC & WORCS, they can run whichever. Logic would tell me (older guy who raced 2t’s) that the two strokes would be faster. However the races are almost all 250 four strokes (if not all). If off-road guys are preferring four strokes then the manufactures who don’t produce two strokes have nothing to worry about in MX. Just do it AMA.
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VET176 2/21/2022 2:36am
2/21/2022 2:36am
Moto520 wrote:
Manufacturer influence
Yes. Especially the manufacturer who publicly announced they would never make another two stroke.Wink
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flarider 2/21/2022 2:44am
2/21/2022 2:44am
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke.

So they don't GAS

Not worth the fight
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Alan Dove
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Alan Dove 2/21/2022 2:49am
2/21/2022 2:49am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 2:49am
flarider wrote:
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke. So...
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke.

So they don't GAS

Not worth the fight
don't forget TM

Top level Karting is still exclusively 2-stroke and they sell plenty into that.

We have the benefit of not having the big manufacturers dictating to us what we should be racing.
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flarider
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flarider 2/21/2022 3:22am
2/21/2022 3:22am
flarider wrote:
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke. So...
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke.

So they don't GAS

Not worth the fight
Alan Dove wrote:
don't forget TM Top level Karting is still exclusively 2-stroke and [b]they sell plenty into that.[/b] We have the benefit of not having the big manufacturers...
don't forget TM

Top level Karting is still exclusively 2-stroke and they sell plenty into that.

We have the benefit of not having the big manufacturers dictating to us what we should be racing.
That is true, but don't y'all have electric racing karts coming in hot?
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flarider 2/21/2022 3:23am
2/21/2022 3:23am
flarider wrote:
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke. So...
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke.

So they don't GAS

Not worth the fight
Alan Dove wrote:
don't forget TM Top level Karting is still exclusively 2-stroke and [b]they sell plenty into that.[/b] We have the benefit of not having the big manufacturers...
don't forget TM

Top level Karting is still exclusively 2-stroke and they sell plenty into that.

We have the benefit of not having the big manufacturers dictating to us what we should be racing.
BTW, you're the guy to ask, when it the big WKA or whatever karting thing in Daytona?

Is that January?
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Alan Dove 2/21/2022 3:44am
2/21/2022 3:44am
flarider wrote:
That is true, but don't y'all have electric racing karts coming in hot?
no. Rotax have run an electric series for a few years now. It's barely caught anyone's attention. When, or if, it comes, we certainly won't be going through a 4-stroke transition though.

Karting benefits from having relatively small manufacturers that focus solely on racing and not 'road' products. If we did, we might have been forced 4-stroke. But being more focussed on the needs of the racer, we have managed to keep hold of 2-strokes. There's been a small push to get the 450s into long circuit karting, but they really only compete with the single-cylinder 250s. The twin-cylinder 250s are down the road though (nearing 100hp and holding proper outright lap records on some car circuits)

I think Daytona kart week happened a few weeks ago.
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Justthefacts
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 4:42am
2/21/2022 4:42am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 4:45am
flarider wrote:
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke. So...
I think that for the most part, all manufacturers (except KTM) believes 2 strokes are dead. Lawn equipment that'll eventually be electric or 4 stroke.

So they don't GAS

Not worth the fight
That's the thing. A 150 and 300, shouldn't matter who and if any manufacturers make them or if they think 2 strokes are dead. If the little 150 and 300 are no competition to these much more advanced and dominate 250/450s, then it shouldn't matter. If the players take their ball home and don't want to play anymore, because the little 150 and 300s are allowed. Then that tells me they are scared of them.
I mean, in that exact scenario, that tells me all those years of people here arguing how great the 250f and 450f are, goes down the toilet. If they are scared of little cc 2 strokes, how great in reality are these 4 stroke masterpieces?
Justthefacts
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 4:53am
2/21/2022 4:53am
By the way. Having the ability to run 2 strokes, allows a rider who normally puts all money in 1 bikes motor mods, to buy 2 150s and 1 300. Think about that... You'd think the manufacturers would jump at that.
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GrapeApe 2/21/2022 5:53am
2/21/2022 5:53am
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
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Justthefacts
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 6:07am
2/21/2022 6:07am
GrapeApe wrote:
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster...
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super easy and wouldn't matter. If no one cares and no one wants to race one, then it would be super simple, and they could say, there, it's done for you 2 stroke lovers. No worries, because no one wants to race one and they aren't competitive. Changing cc rules to something that wouldn't matter, would be a simple move. So go on and shill some more buddy.
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GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 2/21/2022 6:12am
2/21/2022 6:12am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 6:13am
GrapeApe wrote:
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster...
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
Justthefacts wrote:
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super...
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super easy and wouldn't matter. If no one cares and no one wants to race one, then it would be super simple, and they could say, there, it's done for you 2 stroke lovers. No worries, because no one wants to race one and they aren't competitive. Changing cc rules to something that wouldn't matter, would be a simple move. So go on and shill some more buddy.
You're right, it would be extremely easy. That should show you just how little care and attention is given to this issue.
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 6:14am
2/21/2022 6:14am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 6:19am
GrapeApe wrote:
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster...
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
Justthefacts wrote:
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super...
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super easy and wouldn't matter. If no one cares and no one wants to race one, then it would be super simple, and they could say, there, it's done for you 2 stroke lovers. No worries, because no one wants to race one and they aren't competitive. Changing cc rules to something that wouldn't matter, would be a simple move. So go on and shill some more buddy.
GrapeApe wrote:
You're right, it would be extremely easy. That should show you just how little care and attention is given to this issue.
Sure shill. That's why it gets brought up at the meetings, and adjusting rules. Fact. It just for some reason never happens... Adjustments to 4 strokes dies quickly due to cost. 2 strokes getting an adjustment gets squashed for other reasons. Their main excuse is that not all companies make 2 strokes. But that shouldn't matter. Like you said, they are no big deal. The little 150 and 300 could never stand up to a big bad 250f and 450f. Shouldn't matter at those meetings. It should be simple, like you say. Attention is given, unlike you wrongly stated. Just it doesn't happen.
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GrapeApe 2/21/2022 6:20am
2/21/2022 6:20am
Justthefacts wrote:
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super...
Ok shill. It's a simple change, just to write in cc rules. If it wasn't a big deal like you say, then it would be super easy and wouldn't matter. If no one cares and no one wants to race one, then it would be super simple, and they could say, there, it's done for you 2 stroke lovers. No worries, because no one wants to race one and they aren't competitive. Changing cc rules to something that wouldn't matter, would be a simple move. So go on and shill some more buddy.
GrapeApe wrote:
You're right, it would be extremely easy. That should show you just how little care and attention is given to this issue.
Justthefacts wrote:
Sure shill. That's why it gets brought up at the meetings, and adjusting rules. Fact. It just for some reason never happens... Adjustments to 4 strokes...
Sure shill. That's why it gets brought up at the meetings, and adjusting rules. Fact. It just for some reason never happens... Adjustments to 4 strokes dies quickly due to cost. 2 strokes getting an adjustment gets squashed for other reasons. Their main excuse is that not all companies make 2 strokes. But that shouldn't matter. Like you said, they are no big deal. The little 150 and 300 could never stand up to a big bad 250f and 450f. Shouldn't matter at those meetings. It should be simple, like you say. Attention is given, unlike you wrongly stated. Just it doesn't happen.
What exactly am I shilling? lol
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ATKpilot99 2/21/2022 6:21am
2/21/2022 6:21am
Wasn't the EMX 250 title won on a 2 stroke ?
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 6:22am
2/21/2022 6:22am
GrapeApe wrote:
You're right, it would be extremely easy. That should show you just how little care and attention is given to this issue.
Justthefacts wrote:
Sure shill. That's why it gets brought up at the meetings, and adjusting rules. Fact. It just for some reason never happens... Adjustments to 4 strokes...
Sure shill. That's why it gets brought up at the meetings, and adjusting rules. Fact. It just for some reason never happens... Adjustments to 4 strokes dies quickly due to cost. 2 strokes getting an adjustment gets squashed for other reasons. Their main excuse is that not all companies make 2 strokes. But that shouldn't matter. Like you said, they are no big deal. The little 150 and 300 could never stand up to a big bad 250f and 450f. Shouldn't matter at those meetings. It should be simple, like you say. Attention is given, unlike you wrongly stated. Just it doesn't happen.
GrapeApe wrote:
What exactly am I shilling? lol
Either you unwittingly don't know that Proama has that topic brought up in meetings, or you are simply shilling saying they don't care enough. But you should look up what shilling means. You're trying to sell something that is factually incorrect.
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Alan Dove 2/21/2022 6:36am
2/21/2022 6:36am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2022 6:37am
GrapeApe wrote:
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster...
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
It's not about racing, it's about non-racing sales. MX and SX would be absolutely fine with 2-strokes. TM would step up, KTM, Yamaha etc... Karting has IAME, Vortex, Modena, DEA, VM, SGM and others building bespoke 2-stroke 125 and 250 engines. So the infrastructure and technology is there.

The issue the big manufacturers, i.e Honda, have is selling into the non-racing market. If the cc were equalized for the racing, the move to 2-stroke would be sharp and shrift and I think competitors and spectators would have NO issue with that.
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Justthefacts 2/21/2022 6:40am
2/21/2022 6:40am
GrapeApe wrote:
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster...
The rule hasn't changed because nobody invested in professional racing (MX and SX) cares about racing 2 strokes. Manufacturers, teams, riders, sanctioning bodies, promoters, sponsors, Monster girls, none of them care. Even with a rule change none of the manufacturers are going to race a 2 stroke, so why should they care? Be happy KTM group and Yamaha are still putting out 2 stroke motocross bikes to appease a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
Alan Dove wrote:
It's not about racing, it's about non-racing sales. MX and SX would be absolutely fine with 2-strokes. TM would step up, KTM, Yamaha etc... Karting has...
It's not about racing, it's about non-racing sales. MX and SX would be absolutely fine with 2-strokes. TM would step up, KTM, Yamaha etc... Karting has IAME, Vortex, Modena, DEA, VM, SGM and others building bespoke 2-stroke 125 and 250 engines. So the infrastructure and technology is there.

The issue the big manufacturers, i.e Honda, have is selling into the non-racing market. If the cc were equalized for the racing, the move to 2-stroke would be sharp and shrift and I think competitors and spectators would have NO issue with that.
But that's the thing. (I know which side you were speaking of. Just playing devils advocate) The little 150 and 300 isn't equalized. It's just a minor adjustment, that everyone says doesn't matter. They can't compete and no one cares about them.
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Falcon 2/21/2022 8:22am
2/21/2022 8:22am
All I know is, I simply cannot wait until electric bikes do the same thing to thumpers what the 4-strokes did to 2-strokes.
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wrc777 2/21/2022 9:34am
2/21/2022 9:34am
Falcon wrote:
All I know is, I simply cannot wait until electric bikes do the same thing to thumpers what the 4-strokes did to 2-strokes.
There may come a day where you can buy electric or two stroke.
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yak651 2/21/2022 9:49am
2/21/2022 9:49am
Paging DC…oh that’s right we will get the same excuse he’s used for 20 years that Honda will take their ball and go home
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kott0n 2/23/2022 5:16pm
2/23/2022 5:16pm
We would see the same thing happen in the late 70's early 80's where 2 strokes dominated if they did a CC change. All it takes is for a few KTM group riders to podium and consecutively and the other manufacturers would make them.

Consider the 2 stroke is basically stagnant in development, we have lost a lot of headway with them.

Anyone remember the Honda ARC engine? The clean burn technology is there if they want it to be.

Post a reply to: Simple 2 stroke rule question for pro racing. Same since 2003