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The only replica part will be the seat cover, but I found one that is very close to the original. None of the serious 73/ 74 CR250M parts collectors I have talked to has ever seen an NOS seat. I have seen 3 NOS 1975/ 76 seats so far this year, but they look different, have a plastic base, and don't fit the older model.
I started lacing the front NOS hub to used rims with NOS oem spokes. I have not found any NOS rims, but luckily by old ones were in good condition. Another thing that took me a while to figure out is the weird way the spokes are laced on these bikes. There are 2 types of spokes for each wheel.. Spoke "A" and spoke "B". Usually when there are 2 different spokes for each wheel, they are different lengths. Not the case here, the spokes are the exact same length but the bend at the end of the spoke is different. The "B" spokes have a sharper 90 degree bend and sit on the outside of the hub. The "A" spoke have about a 75 degree bend and sit on the inside of the hub. It is a PIA to spoke the wheel because if you put both A and B on one side at once, the spokes get in the way of installing the "A" spokes on the other side, so I suggested installing all the A spokes first on both sides before starting on the B spokes. Also, there is a D.I.D. emblem embossed in the rim right next to the hold for the air valve. With the DID emblem position at the bottom/ closest to the ground, the air valve hole will be in front of the DID emblem. As the DID emblem is sideways, it can only be read from the right side of the bike when the rim is put on correctly. I will post later on the correct placement of the DID decals which go opposite the embossed emblem next to the seam in the rim.
The pic below shows and NOS silence on the right and the original silencer from my donor bike that I reconditioned as it was in great shape. I noticed several differences in how the silencers were made and I compared to pics of other original and NOS silencers and discovered that there are at least 5 different versions of the silencer.. all original Honda OEM. I guess made at different times and from different suppliers that Honda was using. The original silencer on the right seems to have very nice TIG welds.. very nicely assembled and the body of the silencer seems to have more of a taper. The NOS silencer has MIG welds and I noticed the mounting brackets are stamped slightly differently with the indentation in the center reversed between the two versions. The end piece that attached to the pipe is also slightly different if you look very closely. Neither of these versions have a nut welded on the mounting tab, but some of the very early versions have that feature. I have also seen NOS silencers that have the same mounting tab stamping as my original silencer, but they are MIG welded unlike my original one. Many different versions out there.
I had to figure out a solution to getting the top steering stem nut tightened w/o having to use the hammer and punch method on NOS parts. The special 2-pronged tool from Honda that was needed to properly tighten this nut is no longer available and I couldn't even find an old used one anywhere. I could also not find anyone who makes an aftermarket one either. What I did was buy a 4-pronged Suzuki GSXR swingarm nut socket from Motion Pro P/N 08-0575 and ground off 2 of the 4 prongs. Fits perfectly. The Honda manual call for some crazy torque specs for this thin nut (58-87 ft lbs !!!!), but I probably would go more than 35-40 ft lbs. I wonder if Honda miscalculated the ft lbs.. I can't imagine 87 ft lbs on this scrawny nut.
I went to install the nos billet crank into the right-side case half. I bought a crank installer and the crank went right in, but then I discovered the crank was very hard to turn even though the crank wasn't touching the cases and the NOS OEM bearing was turning freely before install. I was baffled and was sure I had crank seal installed just below flush so it couldn't be touching that either. When I took the crank back out, I saw that the steel coil ring that sits on the end of the seals, had jumped off the seal and onto the crank shaft and then installed itself inside the seal sitting in the valley between the 2 sealing lips of the crank seal and causing the drag. How unlikely. I did notice the billet crank has less of a bevel where it slides into the seal, so you have to be extra careful when installing. Also, if using old NOS OEM seals, make sure there is no rust on that coil ring. It might be a good idea to take the coil off the seal and make sure it is clean and stretches normally around its circumference. It doesn't take much for the coil to jump off the seal. It is no fun taking things back apart after installing properly. This is going to set me back a week as I wait for a new seal.
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I did do an extensive search for them over the summer, but gave up.
If you know potential leads, please PM me and I will pursue. Thanks!
mike
I usually am willing to spend a lot of money on my builds, but I never imagined this build would cost as much as it did. Including the cost of the donor bike, I have well over $20k into this build so far. I initially budgeted about $10k. From the donor bike I used the frame, swingarm, engine center cases, rims, rear hub, seat base and upper fork tubes. Everything else is NOS essentially. The NOS fuel tank and exhaust pipe (still in original Honda packing) came from Japan and you can imagine just what those 2 items cost.
The thing is, I never expected to find this many 50 year old NOS parts. I figured I would be as many NOS parts as I could, but it wouldn't be that much and I would just refurbish the rest. The old parts could be made to look pretty nice. But then the build transformed into a bike that had all the original finished and tolerances especially once I found the NOS tank, pipe and silencer. It took me a month to negotiate with the guy and Japan for the tank and pipe because he initially didn't want to sell to me in the US. The reason there are so many NOS parts still around is that Honda screwed up producing the extra maintenance parts.. they had no experience in producing 2 stroke racing MX bikes and way overestimated the parts they would need to keep the bikes running. Also, quite a few souls recognized that these bikes would become iconic in the future and had the foresight to purchase all the unsold inventory they could. The NOS parts are out there, but big $$$. Everything is way over prices for the 73/74 CR250M. If I had built a 1974 Yamaha, Suzuki, Maico or even a 74 CR125 to the same level, the cost would have been a fraction of what I spent. It is the emotional connection with the very first Elsinore that drives it, I guess.
It will make a nice piece of furniture for my bedroom
I’d say you set the bar for restoring anything old.
Are you planning to start it up and riding it up and down the street before you put it in the bedroom?
I will certainly start her up and ride her up and down the street on a regular basis, but she will never see the dirt.
It will be a pretty special feeling riding that Elsinore for the first time I reckon.
Also.. I have been riding MX for over half a century and have always had a keen interest in the evolving technology so it is a hoot to ride one of these old bikes and how different it feels from what I remember. I rode the donor bike briefly when I bought it.. I felt like I was riding a pit bike compared to a modern bike.. it felt narrow, but the seat angles up in the back and my butt hit when standing in an aggressive position. With the low center of gravity these old bikes have, they are a lot of fun in turns.. whether power sliding or dragging the bars in a berm. Perhaps this is the only thing these old bikes can do well compared to modern machinery.
Pit Row
The new bikes outperform most vintage bikes, but there is something special, almost magical, with a vintage dirt bike. A friend of my dad imported and sold CZ and Jawas. I remember looking in awe at the old (even back in the nineties) CZ mx bikes or Jawa speedway bikes they had laying around. People used to do gnarly things on those bikes. If I chicken out doing something with my bike I often think of the old guard doing even scarier things with ‘worse’ equipment. I often end up trying it.
The spoke pattern on these old bikes are a pain.. if you try to install both x-crossed spokes on one side as you would with most modern wheels, you will find that you will have to remove spokes again on the other side when you try to install the inside to out "B" spokes. To avoid this hassle, I recommend install only all the "A" (outside to in) spokes first on both sides.
Here are both wheels completed. These CR250Ms came with Dunlop Sports tires. I used Dunlops with retro style tread.. a D952 on the front and a D739 110/100-18 on the rear. Only the D739 came in the 110/100-18 size which I felt was the closest to the original 4.00x18" tire.. it is slightly wider than the original.
Bending the locking tabs for the rear sprocket nuts are another pain.. they take quite a bit of hammering so if you use metal tools, they will look all beat up when you finish. I bought a 4' length of 3/8" nylon and cut a 10" long piece to make a nylon drift to prevent scratching the parts. I chose only to bend 1 side which is plenty to hold the nut firm and looks cleaner.
As there are no reference pics in the 2 Honda manuals I had, and the previous owner had the right crank in backwards, I had no reference on which way to put that NOS oem seal in. The right side crank seal should be installed as in the pic below.
The manual suggests that the steering stem top nut (the one that sits on top of the upper triple clamp) be torqued to 58 to 87 ft lbs!! That would be crazy torque on that skinny nut. Moreover, a special Honda socket is needed to tighten that special nut and is no longer available from Honda or other source. I made one from a Motion Pro Suzuki swingarm nut tool (P/N 08-0575) with the same diameter as the Honda steering nut. It required that I grind off 2 of the 4 prongs to be able to fit on the Honda nut. The most torque I felt safe putting on that nut is 35 ft lbs. Most guys just use a hammer and screwdriver to tighten that top nut which would not be cool with NOS parts nor would it ensure sufficient torque on the nut.
This kind of care is needed for a clean install like it was done at the factory.
I bought a lot of NOS parts at once before the build and had the correct the part numbers, but found out later the NOS parts looked different from the originals. Honda revised many of the parts son after launch for this bike as there were problems with the first design parts on Honda's very first 2 stroke MX racer. The front axle is an example.. both NOS axles below came with the same part number in the original unopened Honda packaging. However, you can see the right side is designed very different. the first design is hollow with just a hole in it to hold the axle from turning when you tighten the axle nut. The revised design is solid and has two flats on the right side so you can hold it with a wrench to tighten the axle.
The expert green on the tank and number plats is completely flat, the frame is gloss black, the kickstand is semi-flat, Satin black will get you close for rims and things like the pipe stay and rear brake torque arm. For the engine cases, VHT engine case black got be close to the color of my NOS side covers. The cylinder is a semi-flat black. The silver on the fenders is "special silver metallic" which has a very fine misty metallic, The rear fender has a high gloss clear coat but the front fender has a very low gloss.. almost flat clear coat.
Here are some pics that should guys with their paint.. one is the schematic for the tank stripe another for decal placement..
For the rear shocks, after trying 8-10 different colors of silver, I think the Krylon Dull Aluminum was very close. Here is a picture of an NOS shock body with original paint next to the Krylon Dull Aluminum.
The engine is assembled and in the bike. As with most of the engine internals, the ignition is NOS. I wanted to all original rather than go to the aftermarket electronic ignition. The NOS ignition as the new red cloth wire on it which was important since taht wire is usually dirty and beat to crap even on many nice builds or replaced with a vinyl coated wire. Many of the wire holders and small brackets are no longer available, so I was happy to be able make my old wire holder look brand new again.
Some pics of the engine coming together.. notice the original flat color of the engine.
The white plastic roller on the shift shaft is not correct for the 73/74 and first came on the 1975 CR125. It was such a good idea and also looks good, that I slid one on there for now.
I was in my early teens when I got my ‘74 125 Elsinore (I have the full Honda GP optional parts, & still have the bike!) along with many of my friends that had them at the time, a couple of the older/bigger friends had the 250 Elsinore. In my late teens, I started working at the Honda dealership that sponsored me for several years racing MX locally (around ‘78 IIRC) and continued as a Honda Tech until the mid 90’s. I’m intimately familiar with what you’re doing here.
So perfect is your description of the engine case color as “dirty motor oil” I always wondered why they did this back in the day! Perfect color description! My hat is off to you Tokyo_Tiddler, never will this ever be done again in our lifetime I’m sure and you’ve done it with precise perfection that will probably never be surpassed. You be a hero, major Kudos to you!
Your choice of finish for the fork lowers is a very nice diversion from stock, it really adds to the alloy tank finish. A very good choice that was a tough decision I’m sure considering all the attention to OEM finish quality you’ve achieved.
Would you have the exact mud flap mounting bolt spacing from front fender edge to bolt center?
Thanks!
Regarding the measurement from the lip of the front fender to the center of the mud flap hole is 16.5mm for the center hole and 23mm for the two side holes (12.5mm from the side edge of the fender to the screw center).
The basics are straight forward, but I had to make and buy special tools. I had to cut down a dial gauge to just the right height (Honda tool no longer available). In the kit I bought, it was either too short to reach the piston or so long that it hit the piston before you could screw it in. It took me a couple of tries, but the pic below shows the right length need to find TDC and time the CR250M. The length I cut off was a little longer than the piece in the pic below.
I have quite a few sets of feeler gauges to measure the point gap, but all my feeler gauges were too wide to fit in the tiny area around the point contacts. Tusk Racing has some really nice tapered feeler gauges that worked perfect.
With the points fully open, first you want to set your point gap between .3 to .5mm. My NOS ignition with points came gapped at .38mm. Then you want to find top dead center with the dial gauge, then turn the engine backwards (clockwise) so that the piston sits 1.5mm below TDC. In this position, the points should be closed and if you watch the points carefully, the should just start to open when you turn the engine counter-clockwise.
To make sure the points are opening right at the "fire" point, some people use a test light or analog multimeter to detect exactly when the points open. However, hooking up a test light, digital or analog multimeter didn't work out so well for me. The CR250M is wired such that you will always have continuity whether the points are open or closed it seems. So the test light or multimeter continuity buzzer always stays on. For a brief second the light will very slightly darken or sound will very slightly decrease in pitch when the points open and continuity decreases a tiny bit, but the infinitesimal change with the tools I had was beyond my patience. I just bought a 1950's 6V vintage breaker point test light on ebay.. maybe that has the right sensitivity that I can detect. If anyone has any good experience using a test light or multimeter on this bike, I am all ears.
Also, I put some dialectic grease on the cam that the arm of the points rides on per the manual. The manuals of this era are full of errors so you have to double check everything.. I have the Honda, Clymers and Chilton's manuals from the period and the later 2 mix up the instructions for 125 and 250 and other mistakes so be aware.
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