Showroom quality 1973 CR250M

JMCR250
Posts
402
Joined
8/26/2018
Location
Chesterfield, MO US
12/31/2021 4:41pm
You've done an excellent job maintaining original OEM finishes and colors. Looking at these pics takes me right back to 73-74 when my friends and I would just go by the Honda dealership and stare at these magic machines. Great job with the build; looking forward to seeing it finished off.
2
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
12/31/2021 4:54pm Edited Date/Time 12/31/2021 4:57pm
JMCR250 wrote:
You've done an excellent job maintaining original OEM finishes and colors. Looking at these pics takes me right back to 73-74 when my friends and I...
You've done an excellent job maintaining original OEM finishes and colors. Looking at these pics takes me right back to 73-74 when my friends and I would just go by the Honda dealership and stare at these magic machines. Great job with the build; looking forward to seeing it finished off.
Many thanks, but that part is easy when using all the NOS parts.. A quality paint job would look nice too, but knowing these are all the original finishes really makes you feel that you have gone back in time. The only parts I painted for this build are the engine center cases, the frame, the kickstand, the shock bodies, and the exhaust stay. Everything else are original paint finishes from the factory.

The only replica part will be the seat cover, but I found one that is very close to the original. None of the serious 73/ 74 CR250M parts collectors I have talked to has ever seen an NOS seat. I have seen 3 NOS 1975/ 76 seats so far this year, but they look different, have a plastic base, and don't fit the older model.
6
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/2/2022 6:50am
I need to get the seat recovered.. it is one of the few parts that I heard that no one has ever seen an NOS 73/74 part for sale. My seat base is good which is lucky since the aluminum sheathing on the base usually separates and cracks. I had to buy a couple of seat covers until I found one with the same grain in the material as OEM. This quality cover is available from "Pit Racer" (Thailand) or "Old School Covers" in the UK. I never noticed until, but the correct color of the Honda lettering on the back of the seat cover is light silver, not white. I have 2 all original seats to confirm this.





I started lacing the front NOS hub to used rims with NOS oem spokes. I have not found any NOS rims, but luckily by old ones were in good condition. Another thing that took me a while to figure out is the weird way the spokes are laced on these bikes. There are 2 types of spokes for each wheel.. Spoke "A" and spoke "B". Usually when there are 2 different spokes for each wheel, they are different lengths. Not the case here, the spokes are the exact same length but the bend at the end of the spoke is different. The "B" spokes have a sharper 90 degree bend and sit on the outside of the hub. The "A" spoke have about a 75 degree bend and sit on the inside of the hub. It is a PIA to spoke the wheel because if you put both A and B on one side at once, the spokes get in the way of installing the "A" spokes on the other side, so I suggested installing all the A spokes first on both sides before starting on the B spokes. Also, there is a D.I.D. emblem embossed in the rim right next to the hold for the air valve. With the DID emblem position at the bottom/ closest to the ground, the air valve hole will be in front of the DID emblem. As the DID emblem is sideways, it can only be read from the right side of the bike when the rim is put on correctly. I will post later on the correct placement of the DID decals which go opposite the embossed emblem next to the seam in the rim.



The pic below shows and NOS silence on the right and the original silencer from my donor bike that I reconditioned as it was in great shape. I noticed several differences in how the silencers were made and I compared to pics of other original and NOS silencers and discovered that there are at least 5 different versions of the silencer.. all original Honda OEM. I guess made at different times and from different suppliers that Honda was using. The original silencer on the right seems to have very nice TIG welds.. very nicely assembled and the body of the silencer seems to have more of a taper. The NOS silencer has MIG welds and I noticed the mounting brackets are stamped slightly differently with the indentation in the center reversed between the two versions. The end piece that attached to the pipe is also slightly different if you look very closely. Neither of these versions have a nut welded on the mounting tab, but some of the very early versions have that feature. I have also seen NOS silencers that have the same mounting tab stamping as my original silencer, but they are MIG welded unlike my original one. Many different versions out there.





6
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/8/2022 9:58am Edited Date/Time 1/9/2022 6:09am
This build is going harder than I thought it would with all NOS OEM parts.. one problem after another and hopefully this thread will give you a heads up on potential problems and how to solve them.

I had to figure out a solution to getting the top steering stem nut tightened w/o having to use the hammer and punch method on NOS parts. The special 2-pronged tool from Honda that was needed to properly tighten this nut is no longer available and I couldn't even find an old used one anywhere. I could also not find anyone who makes an aftermarket one either. What I did was buy a 4-pronged Suzuki GSXR swingarm nut socket from Motion Pro P/N 08-0575 and ground off 2 of the 4 prongs. Fits perfectly. The Honda manual call for some crazy torque specs for this thin nut (58-87 ft lbs !!!!), but I probably would go more than 35-40 ft lbs. I wonder if Honda miscalculated the ft lbs.. I can't imagine 87 ft lbs on this scrawny nut.





I went to install the nos billet crank into the right-side case half. I bought a crank installer and the crank went right in, but then I discovered the crank was very hard to turn even though the crank wasn't touching the cases and the NOS OEM bearing was turning freely before install. I was baffled and was sure I had crank seal installed just below flush so it couldn't be touching that either. When I took the crank back out, I saw that the steel coil ring that sits on the end of the seals, had jumped off the seal and onto the crank shaft and then installed itself inside the seal sitting in the valley between the 2 sealing lips of the crank seal and causing the drag. How unlikely. I did notice the billet crank has less of a bevel where it slides into the seal, so you have to be extra careful when installing. Also, if using old NOS OEM seals, make sure there is no rust on that coil ring. It might be a good idea to take the coil off the seal and make sure it is clean and stretches normally around its circumference. It doesn't take much for the coil to jump off the seal. It is no fun taking things back apart after installing properly. This is going to set me back a week as I wait for a new seal.



11

The Shop

mxav8r
Posts
600
Joined
10/26/2006
Location
Atl, GA US
1/11/2022 6:49pm
Very interesting read Mike and what a challenge getting this bike together! But I know when you're done its going to be perfect.
YZ302
Posts
157
Joined
10/14/2013
Location
Southwick, MA US
1/12/2022 2:39pm
The bike looks great so far. How are you doing with the NOS tires?
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/12/2022 3:45pm
mxav8r wrote:
Very interesting read Mike and what a challenge getting this bike together! But I know when you're done its going to be perfect.
It has to be perfect Wink so I fret over each step.. I have way too much money into this build for what it is. I actually worked on these bikes back in the day.. I had a 74 CR125, 74 CR250 and a 75 CR125.. I think I have gotten spoiled by modern bikes over the years.. more accurate/ consistent tolerances, cleaner castings, no ball bearings all over the floor when you remove triple clamps.
3
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/12/2022 3:52pm
YZ302 wrote:
The bike looks great so far. How are you doing with the NOS tires?
Thanks! I haven't seen any NOS original Dunlop tires from the early seventies. I would suspect most would by dry rotted by now. I am using Dunlop retro tread tires. For the rear, I have an NOS D739 tires from about 15-20 years ago and for the front I will use a new D752 tire. These are retro tread design with no grooves or fancy shapes to the knobs. They shouldn't look out of place on this old bike.
3
YZ302
Posts
157
Joined
10/14/2013
Location
Southwick, MA US
1/12/2022 4:21pm
The tires are out there. If you’re taking the bike all the way you need to track them down. Just my opinion.
1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/12/2022 5:06pm
YZ302 wrote:
The tires are out there. If you’re taking the bike all the way you need to track them down. Just my opinion.
I haven't seen any NOS Dunlop knobby tires that old yet,, I have hundreds of hours into just finding what is close to 80% of the motorcycle and I just haven't come across almost 50 year old NOS tires, nor rims or seat. These are the items that few people have seen lately. I have found quite a few 20 year old NOS tires for my other build.

I did do an extensive search for them over the summer, but gave up.

If you know potential leads, please PM me and I will pursue. Thanks!

mike
3
YZ302
Posts
157
Joined
10/14/2013
Location
Southwick, MA US
1/12/2022 5:29pm
I have a 3.00/21 Dunlop Sports (Japan). I need a 2.75/21 Dunlop Sports (Japan). Do you by any chance have the tire I need?
1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/12/2022 6:05pm
YZ302 wrote:
I have a 3.00/21 Dunlop Sports (Japan). I need a 2.75/21 Dunlop Sports (Japan). Do you by any chance have the tire I need?
Sorry.. I don't have a tire of that size. If you want to sell the 3.00x21. I would be interested.
1
Kidkawie
Posts
1184
Joined
8/31/2012
Location
ქუთაისი GE
1/12/2022 6:38pm
I'm one that can relate. My 94 KX was this caliber of build. I bought hardware lots off ebay from bikes in that year range and had them replated. That was the biggest issue, hardware. Every part was NOS or refinished OEM except the spokes and fork guards. Shipping costs were a bitch, took years.
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/13/2022 12:08am
Kidkawie wrote:
I'm one that can relate. My 94 KX was this caliber of build. I bought hardware lots off ebay from bikes in that year range and...
I'm one that can relate. My 94 KX was this caliber of build. I bought hardware lots off ebay from bikes in that year range and had them replated. That was the biggest issue, hardware. Every part was NOS or refinished OEM except the spokes and fork guards. Shipping costs were a bitch, took years.
I have been at this bike for almost a year and searched US, Europe, Japan and Australia for the parts. I would say searching for the parts took about 80% of the time for this build, about 12% was disassembly of the donor bike and cleaning parts and only about 8% of the time invested is actually building the bike.

I usually am willing to spend a lot of money on my builds, but I never imagined this build would cost as much as it did. Including the cost of the donor bike, I have well over $20k into this build so far. I initially budgeted about $10k. From the donor bike I used the frame, swingarm, engine center cases, rims, rear hub, seat base and upper fork tubes. Everything else is NOS essentially. The NOS fuel tank and exhaust pipe (still in original Honda packing) came from Japan and you can imagine just what those 2 items cost.

The thing is, I never expected to find this many 50 year old NOS parts. I figured I would be as many NOS parts as I could, but it wouldn't be that much and I would just refurbish the rest. The old parts could be made to look pretty nice. But then the build transformed into a bike that had all the original finished and tolerances especially once I found the NOS tank, pipe and silencer. It took me a month to negotiate with the guy and Japan for the tank and pipe because he initially didn't want to sell to me in the US. The reason there are so many NOS parts still around is that Honda screwed up producing the extra maintenance parts.. they had no experience in producing 2 stroke racing MX bikes and way overestimated the parts they would need to keep the bikes running. Also, quite a few souls recognized that these bikes would become iconic in the future and had the foresight to purchase all the unsold inventory they could. The NOS parts are out there, but big $$$. Everything is way over prices for the 73/74 CR250M. If I had built a 1974 Yamaha, Suzuki, Maico or even a 74 CR125 to the same level, the cost would have been a fraction of what I spent. It is the emotional connection with the very first Elsinore that drives it, I guess.

It will make a nice piece of furniture for my bedroom Smile
5
hylo
Posts
180
Joined
2/24/2015
Location
NO
1/13/2022 5:28am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2022 5:30am
You must have sent a ton of emails, spent hours on the phone and been worried sick over shipping for weeks! I gotta say this build really is over the top (in an awesomely fantastic way)!

I’d say you set the bar for restoring anything old.

Are you planning to start it up and riding it up and down the street before you put it in the bedroom? Smile
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/13/2022 6:25am
hylo wrote:
You must have sent a ton of emails, spent hours on the phone and been worried sick over shipping for weeks! I gotta say this build...
You must have sent a ton of emails, spent hours on the phone and been worried sick over shipping for weeks! I gotta say this build really is over the top (in an awesomely fantastic way)!

I’d say you set the bar for restoring anything old.

Are you planning to start it up and riding it up and down the street before you put it in the bedroom? Smile
Actually my last build of the RC250M factory bike was more of a worry with the fear that someone like UPS, Fed-ex, etc would destroy the package with the rare works parts inside. I was relieved when the NOS tank and pipe arrived safely Smile

I will certainly start her up and ride her up and down the street on a regular basis, but she will never see the dirt.
1
hylo
Posts
180
Joined
2/24/2015
Location
NO
1/13/2022 8:17am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2022 8:19am
Actually my last build of the RC250M factory bike was more of a worry with the fear that someone like UPS, Fed-ex, etc would destroy the...
Actually my last build of the RC250M factory bike was more of a worry with the fear that someone like UPS, Fed-ex, etc would destroy the package with the rare works parts inside. I was relieved when the NOS tank and pipe arrived safely Smile

I will certainly start her up and ride her up and down the street on a regular basis, but she will never see the dirt.
Haha, I get grey hairs from less. You must be well connected to get all those parts. And that RC250 looks killer. I wish I could get the same amount of works parts for my Ktm.

It will be a pretty special feeling riding that Elsinore for the first time I reckon. Smile
1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/13/2022 9:14am
Actually my last build of the RC250M factory bike was more of a worry with the fear that someone like UPS, Fed-ex, etc would destroy the...
Actually my last build of the RC250M factory bike was more of a worry with the fear that someone like UPS, Fed-ex, etc would destroy the package with the rare works parts inside. I was relieved when the NOS tank and pipe arrived safely Smile

I will certainly start her up and ride her up and down the street on a regular basis, but she will never see the dirt.
hylo wrote:
Haha, I get grey hairs from less. You must be well connected to get all those parts. And that RC250 looks killer. I wish I could...
Haha, I get grey hairs from less. You must be well connected to get all those parts. And that RC250 looks killer. I wish I could get the same amount of works parts for my Ktm.

It will be a pretty special feeling riding that Elsinore for the first time I reckon. Smile
Yes, I am definitely looking forward to that first ride.. it will be emotional and educational. In 1975, I was racing a 75 CR125 and had bought a left over 74 CR250M and only had it for a few weeks before my younger brother took it without my permission and was riding around the streets with his friends whereupon they where caught by the police and the bike was impounded. The bike was then stolen from impound at a towing company and I never saw it again. I always dreamt of having that showroom new bike back again.

Also.. I have been riding MX for over half a century and have always had a keen interest in the evolving technology so it is a hoot to ride one of these old bikes and how different it feels from what I remember. I rode the donor bike briefly when I bought it.. I felt like I was riding a pit bike compared to a modern bike.. it felt narrow, but the seat angles up in the back and my butt hit when standing in an aggressive position. With the low center of gravity these old bikes have, they are a lot of fun in turns.. whether power sliding or dragging the bars in a berm. Perhaps this is the only thing these old bikes can do well compared to modern machinery.
2
hylo
Posts
180
Joined
2/24/2015
Location
NO
1/13/2022 9:50am
Yes, I am definitely looking forward to that first ride.. it will be emotional and educational. In 1975, I was racing a 75 CR125 and had...
Yes, I am definitely looking forward to that first ride.. it will be emotional and educational. In 1975, I was racing a 75 CR125 and had bought a left over 74 CR250M and only had it for a few weeks before my younger brother took it without my permission and was riding around the streets with his friends whereupon they where caught by the police and the bike was impounded. The bike was then stolen from impound at a towing company and I never saw it again. I always dreamt of having that showroom new bike back again.

Also.. I have been riding MX for over half a century and have always had a keen interest in the evolving technology so it is a hoot to ride one of these old bikes and how different it feels from what I remember. I rode the donor bike briefly when I bought it.. I felt like I was riding a pit bike compared to a modern bike.. it felt narrow, but the seat angles up in the back and my butt hit when standing in an aggressive position. With the low center of gravity these old bikes have, they are a lot of fun in turns.. whether power sliding or dragging the bars in a berm. Perhaps this is the only thing these old bikes can do well compared to modern machinery.
It gets personal when it is something you had or dreamt of when you were young. I’m still young-ish (32) but the first memories I have of a bike was my dads mid eighties Yamaha XT250. I remember sitting in front of him riding up and down the road here in Norway. I plan to find one, restore it and suprise him with it when he turns 65. I also took a Yamaha xt660 joyriding in the woods without his permission when I was 15. Dumb, but fun.

The new bikes outperform most vintage bikes, but there is something special, almost magical, with a vintage dirt bike. A friend of my dad imported and sold CZ and Jawas. I remember looking in awe at the old (even back in the nineties) CZ mx bikes or Jawa speedway bikes they had laying around. People used to do gnarly things on those bikes. If I chicken out doing something with my bike I often think of the old guard doing even scarier things with ‘worse’ equipment. I often end up trying it.Grinning
1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
1/30/2022 7:46pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 7:53pm
Got the wheels done. I had to purchase a 55mm x 1.5 bottom tap to do a slight touch up on the threads for the rear wheel bearing retainer. The threads looked perfect and no defects to the naked eye. The old bearing retainer came right out too, but when I tried to install an NOS retainer, it would start to gall. I think the problem is that Honda dimples the hub around the retainer in 4 places and this very slightly deforms the threaded bore. No thread chasers this size are available and a US made tap of this monster size is about $450. I was able to order one directly from China for almost 1/2 the price and they shipped quickly via Fedex. I didn't even need to put a wrench on the tap.. a few turns with my fingers instantly fixed the problem. For the next guy that needs to fix a hub with the same problem, I will happily pass on this tool for 1/2 price.. $130 Smile .



The spoke pattern on these old bikes are a pain.. if you try to install both x-crossed spokes on one side as you would with most modern wheels, you will find that you will have to remove spokes again on the other side when you try to install the inside to out "B" spokes. To avoid this hassle, I recommend install only all the "A" (outside to in) spokes first on both sides.

Here are both wheels completed. These CR250Ms came with Dunlop Sports tires. I used Dunlops with retro style tread.. a D952 on the front and a D739 110/100-18 on the rear. Only the D739 came in the 110/100-18 size which I felt was the closest to the original 4.00x18" tire.. it is slightly wider than the original.


Bending the locking tabs for the rear sprocket nuts are another pain.. they take quite a bit of hammering so if you use metal tools, they will look all beat up when you finish. I bought a 4' length of 3/8" nylon and cut a 10" long piece to make a nylon drift to prevent scratching the parts. I chose only to bend 1 side which is plenty to hold the nut firm and looks cleaner.



As there are no reference pics in the 2 Honda manuals I had, and the previous owner had the right crank in backwards, I had no reference on which way to put that NOS oem seal in. The right side crank seal should be installed as in the pic below.

The manual suggests that the steering stem top nut (the one that sits on top of the upper triple clamp) be torqued to 58 to 87 ft lbs!! That would be crazy torque on that skinny nut. Moreover, a special Honda socket is needed to tighten that special nut and is no longer available from Honda or other source. I made one from a Motion Pro Suzuki swingarm nut tool (P/N 08-0575) with the same diameter as the Honda steering nut. It required that I grind off 2 of the 4 prongs to be able to fit on the Honda nut. The most torque I felt safe putting on that nut is 35 ft lbs. Most guys just use a hammer and screwdriver to tighten that top nut which would not be cool with NOS parts nor would it ensure sufficient torque on the nut.




This kind of care is needed for a clean install like it was done at the factory.


I bought a lot of NOS parts at once before the build and had the correct the part numbers, but found out later the NOS parts looked different from the originals. Honda revised many of the parts son after launch for this bike as there were problems with the first design parts on Honda's very first 2 stroke MX racer. The front axle is an example.. both NOS axles below came with the same part number in the original unopened Honda packaging. However, you can see the right side is designed very different. the first design is hollow with just a hole in it to hold the axle from turning when you tighten the axle nut. The revised design is solid and has two flats on the right side so you can hold it with a wrench to tighten the axle.
7
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/7/2022 3:45pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2022 3:48pm
I mentioned a bit about the paint earlier in this thread but I didn't paint many parts for this build as much of it was NOS. Nevertheless, important to get the paint right as guys who use the flat when there should be gloss and gloss when there should be flat, end up with a build that shouts "repainted". Done correctly, you shouldn't be able to tell so easily.

The expert green on the tank and number plats is completely flat, the frame is gloss black, the kickstand is semi-flat, Satin black will get you close for rims and things like the pipe stay and rear brake torque arm. For the engine cases, VHT engine case black got be close to the color of my NOS side covers. The cylinder is a semi-flat black. The silver on the fenders is "special silver metallic" which has a very fine misty metallic, The rear fender has a high gloss clear coat but the front fender has a very low gloss.. almost flat clear coat.

Here are some pics that should guys with their paint.. one is the schematic for the tank stripe another for decal placement..



For the rear shocks, after trying 8-10 different colors of silver, I think the Krylon Dull Aluminum was very close. Here is a picture of an NOS shock body with original paint next to the Krylon Dull Aluminum.



The engine is assembled and in the bike. As with most of the engine internals, the ignition is NOS. I wanted to all original rather than go to the aftermarket electronic ignition. The NOS ignition as the new red cloth wire on it which was important since taht wire is usually dirty and beat to crap even on many nice builds or replaced with a vinyl coated wire. Many of the wire holders and small brackets are no longer available, so I was happy to be able make my old wire holder look brand new again.




Some pics of the engine coming together.. notice the original flat color of the engine.




The white plastic roller on the shift shaft is not correct for the 73/74 and first came on the 1975 CR125. It was such a good idea and also looks good, that I slid one on there for now.
12
Pat327
Posts
681
Joined
2/18/2008
Location
CA US
2/7/2022 10:49pm
Beautiful work! Your attention to detail is next-level! That tank diagram is gold, too. Thanks so much for documenting your build and sharing it with us!
7
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/8/2022 2:29pm
Pat327 wrote:
Beautiful work! Your attention to detail is next-level! That tank diagram is gold, too. Thanks so much for documenting your build and sharing it with us!
Many thanks, Pat!
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/8/2022 2:42pm
A note about the iconic front mud flaps.. NOS flaps have been impossible to find. The repro's are excellent quality and look good but are made of a slightly thicker and different rubber than the thin originals. The result is they sit a little differently on the end of the fender at the edges where the fender curves down at the sides,, this is noticeable to a keen eye. While a quality repro is still a good option, I found a used one in exceptionally nice condition and the rubber was still soft.




9
LTRace
Posts
9
Joined
10/29/2021
Location
Port Orchard, WA US
2/13/2022 9:38am
This is the single most stunning OEM build you will ever witness of a Honda Elsinore. Especially at this current period of time. What Tokyo_Tiddler is undertaking here is truly epic in perfection of every CORRECT detail.
I was in my early teens when I got my ‘74 125 Elsinore (I have the full Honda GP optional parts, & still have the bike!) along with many of my friends that had them at the time, a couple of the older/bigger friends had the 250 Elsinore. In my late teens, I started working at the Honda dealership that sponsored me for several years racing MX locally (around ‘78 IIRC) and continued as a Honda Tech until the mid 90’s. I’m intimately familiar with what you’re doing here.
So perfect is your description of the engine case color as “dirty motor oil” I always wondered why they did this back in the day! Perfect color description! My hat is off to you Tokyo_Tiddler, never will this ever be done again in our lifetime I’m sure and you’ve done it with precise perfection that will probably never be surpassed. You be a hero, major Kudos to you!
5
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/13/2022 11:48pm
LTRace wrote:
This is the single most stunning OEM build you will ever witness of a Honda Elsinore. Especially at this current period of time. What Tokyo_Tiddler is...
This is the single most stunning OEM build you will ever witness of a Honda Elsinore. Especially at this current period of time. What Tokyo_Tiddler is undertaking here is truly epic in perfection of every CORRECT detail.
I was in my early teens when I got my ‘74 125 Elsinore (I have the full Honda GP optional parts, & still have the bike!) along with many of my friends that had them at the time, a couple of the older/bigger friends had the 250 Elsinore. In my late teens, I started working at the Honda dealership that sponsored me for several years racing MX locally (around ‘78 IIRC) and continued as a Honda Tech until the mid 90’s. I’m intimately familiar with what you’re doing here.
So perfect is your description of the engine case color as “dirty motor oil” I always wondered why they did this back in the day! Perfect color description! My hat is off to you Tokyo_Tiddler, never will this ever be done again in our lifetime I’m sure and you’ve done it with precise perfection that will probably never be surpassed. You be a hero, major Kudos to you!
Thanks so much for the kind comments, LTRACE. Unfortunately I can only hope to be the 2nd best NOS build at best. #1 goes to Bill Nazelrod's build.. Bill had every NOS part to build his bike except for the frame, tires and seat. At this point, I have close to 85% of the bike in NOS parts, but Bill's has a few more than I. Here are a few pics of Bill's beautiful machine;




3
LTRace
Posts
9
Joined
10/29/2021
Location
Port Orchard, WA US
2/14/2022 8:18am
Wow, that’s a stunner as well! The sales brochure and hang tag are an especially nice touch. Hoping he documented his build as well as yours. I would imagine you are keeping a binder of paper documentation as well?
Your choice of finish for the fork lowers is a very nice diversion from stock, it really adds to the alloy tank finish. A very good choice that was a tough decision I’m sure considering all the attention to OEM finish quality you’ve achieved.
Would you have the exact mud flap mounting bolt spacing from front fender edge to bolt center?
Thanks!
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/14/2022 2:15pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2022 4:58pm
LTRace wrote:
Wow, that’s a stunner as well! The sales brochure and hang tag are an especially nice touch. Hoping he documented his build as well as yours...
Wow, that’s a stunner as well! The sales brochure and hang tag are an especially nice touch. Hoping he documented his build as well as yours. I would imagine you are keeping a binder of paper documentation as well?
Your choice of finish for the fork lowers is a very nice diversion from stock, it really adds to the alloy tank finish. A very good choice that was a tough decision I’m sure considering all the attention to OEM finish quality you’ve achieved.
Would you have the exact mud flap mounting bolt spacing from front fender edge to bolt center?
Thanks!
It might be hard to understand why I deviated from original on the lower fork sliders when I worked so hard to ensure original finishes on the rest of the bike, but it is one area where I felt I was making a fairly significant improvement in the look of the bike. I spent over a month with a polished lower and an original clear coated lower in my office to look at and I just like the polished lower over the cleared lower. It is something easy to change w/o dismantling the forks if I so chose to do later. With a cleared lower, the aluminum tends to react under the clear coat over time which is more of a job to fix. The bare aluminum is easy to polish up every few years to keep it looking fresh. Another area where I will not choose to mimic an original set up is the carb vent that Honda weirdly chose to wire wrap to the outside left frame rail. Looks silly and I will instead tuck the vent hoses behind the engine, in front of the swingarm. Doesn't really take away from the originality and makes the bike nicer to look at.

Regarding the measurement from the lip of the front fender to the center of the mud flap hole is 16.5mm for the center hole and 23mm for the two side holes (12.5mm from the side edge of the fender to the screw center).
2
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2105
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
2/14/2022 4:52pm
Back in my late teens, early twenties, I was well accustomed to adjusting points on my cars, however, the process for adjusting the points and timing on the 73/74 CR250 is rather crude and a PIA especially since the tools are easily accessible anymore.

The basics are straight forward, but I had to make and buy special tools. I had to cut down a dial gauge to just the right height (Honda tool no longer available). In the kit I bought, it was either too short to reach the piston or so long that it hit the piston before you could screw it in. It took me a couple of tries, but the pic below shows the right length need to find TDC and time the CR250M. The length I cut off was a little longer than the piece in the pic below.


I have quite a few sets of feeler gauges to measure the point gap, but all my feeler gauges were too wide to fit in the tiny area around the point contacts. Tusk Racing has some really nice tapered feeler gauges that worked perfect.


With the points fully open, first you want to set your point gap between .3 to .5mm. My NOS ignition with points came gapped at .38mm. Then you want to find top dead center with the dial gauge, then turn the engine backwards (clockwise) so that the piston sits 1.5mm below TDC. In this position, the points should be closed and if you watch the points carefully, the should just start to open when you turn the engine counter-clockwise.

To make sure the points are opening right at the "fire" point, some people use a test light or analog multimeter to detect exactly when the points open. However, hooking up a test light, digital or analog multimeter didn't work out so well for me. The CR250M is wired such that you will always have continuity whether the points are open or closed it seems. So the test light or multimeter continuity buzzer always stays on. For a brief second the light will very slightly darken or sound will very slightly decrease in pitch when the points open and continuity decreases a tiny bit, but the infinitesimal change with the tools I had was beyond my patience. I just bought a 1950's 6V vintage breaker point test light on ebay.. maybe that has the right sensitivity that I can detect. If anyone has any good experience using a test light or multimeter on this bike, I am all ears.

Also, I put some dialectic grease on the cam that the arm of the points rides on per the manual. The manuals of this era are full of errors so you have to double check everything.. I have the Honda, Clymers and Chilton's manuals from the period and the later 2 mix up the instructions for 125 and 250 and other mistakes so be aware.




2
2/14/2022 5:14pm
I have seen Bills bike a few times. Its a amazing example.
1

Post a reply to: Showroom quality 1973 CR250M

The Latest