The new performance fad - electric water pumps

tek14
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tek14 1/10/2022 2:57am
1/10/2022 2:57am
Brett_Clark wrote:
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to...
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to run. Star Yamaha has the baddest 250 on the gate and deleting that mechanical load made it better. Xpr is a well known engine company. They aren't throwing this on for show. The old school drag guys in here know all about eliminating engine loads. Rather it's running the alternator off the pinion, electric water pumps, electric over hydraulic steering, dry sump oil systems etc. It all makes a difference in the engines performance. This is technology that we will see standard on mx bikes in the years to come.
Lasse wrote:
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system...
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system, nothing is for free.
ns503 wrote:
What if the electric system is already making way more juice than would be needed to run a water pump?
Next step is make alternator with less drag and just get power from battery alone. Fully charged battery can make it 15min main anyway.
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philG
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philG 1/10/2022 4:24am
1/10/2022 4:24am
philG wrote:
If they want to reduce load, then run the bikes on total loss ignition.

Remove the flywheel and just have a trigger ring.
scott_nz wrote:
I had wondered if someone would do that ,? Do you know any super moto teams that have done it , used to be common on...
I had wondered if someone would do that ,? Do you know any super moto teams that have done it , used to be common on road race bikes here in classes that allowed it

And with fi would a battery last 30 plus 2 with a couple of engine starts ?
We did it on our Aprilia SXV and MXV 450's... just a trigger ring.. would run for 28 mins on a very early gel battery. Always started off a slave battery too. Made a world if difference, less snap off the bottom which is what you want when you are on the side of the tyre. People who rode it and didnt know , could not get their heads round it. Like you say, common in road racing. But in stock classes it has to start off the button in post race checks.
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#434
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#434 1/10/2022 4:54am
1/10/2022 4:54am
Brett_Clark wrote:
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to...
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to run. Star Yamaha has the baddest 250 on the gate and deleting that mechanical load made it better. Xpr is a well known engine company. They aren't throwing this on for show. The old school drag guys in here know all about eliminating engine loads. Rather it's running the alternator off the pinion, electric water pumps, electric over hydraulic steering, dry sump oil systems etc. It all makes a difference in the engines performance. This is technology that we will see standard on mx bikes in the years to come.
Lasse wrote:
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system...
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system, nothing is for free.
The electric pump has the advantage here, because it can be controlled to always operate at the minimum rpm that is needed to keep a certain engine temp. The mechanical pump has a fixed operating point, that is designed for the highest cooling demand. It’s basically always running wide open.

Another advantage is that the rpm of the electric pump can stay fairly constant, whereas the mechanical pump spins up every time the engine is reved, which costs a lot of energy (and responsiveness of the engine).
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Crush
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Crush 1/10/2022 5:12am
1/10/2022 5:12am
This is why PitBits has always been one of my favorite regular internet articles!
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Lasse
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Lasse 1/10/2022 12:52pm
1/10/2022 12:52pm
ns503 wrote:
What if the electric system is already making way more juice than would be needed to run a water pump?
It regulates.
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Robbirob25
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Robbirob25 1/10/2022 1:15pm
1/10/2022 1:15pm
philG wrote:
If they want to reduce load, then run the bikes on total loss ignition.

Remove the flywheel and just have a trigger ring.
I did this on one of my vintage road race bikes. Worked great...
soggy
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soggy 1/10/2022 2:37pm
1/10/2022 2:37pm
philG wrote:
If they want to reduce load, then run the bikes on total loss ignition.

Remove the flywheel and just have a trigger ring.
Robbirob25 wrote:
I did this on one of my vintage road race bikes. Worked great...
I think everyone understands that it can work well for road racing. But the loss of flywheel inertia on an mx or sx track would make the bike pretty unrideable
Falcon
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Falcon 1/10/2022 6:04pm
1/10/2022 6:04pm
JK BRO wrote:
I see nothing ground breaking. Increased electrical load generates heat. They simply transferred the heat from the cooling system to the electrical system. It's ugly AF...
I see nothing ground breaking. Increased electrical load generates heat. They simply transferred the heat from the cooling system to the electrical system.

It's ugly AF too.
You are correct, but I'd bet the heat differential will help the engine more than it hurts the battery.
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BobPA
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BobPA 1/11/2022 5:40am
1/11/2022 5:40am
philG wrote:
If they want to reduce load, then run the bikes on total loss ignition.

Remove the flywheel and just have a trigger ring.
KTM was doing that all the back in the Dungey era
Jbulz
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Jbulz 1/11/2022 8:01am
1/11/2022 8:01am
Next up: put the mechanical water pump back in and overdrive the electric one for a hydraulic hybrid torque boost
JK BRO
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JK BRO 1/11/2022 8:16am
1/11/2022 8:16am
Falcon wrote:
You are correct, but I'd bet the heat differential will help the engine more than it hurts the battery.
I totally agree, I'm not saying it's not worth the upgrade. I just wanted to state that the take away is the increased draw from the electrical system. If race teams are on the bandwagon it's probably a decent product. Increased coolant flow GPM is always a good thing.

I would consider the weight since the bikes are still manufactured with mechanical water pumps.

I appreciate the mature response btw. Cheers

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Falcon
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Falcon 1/11/2022 8:35am
1/11/2022 8:35am
^ I bet the teams remove all the unnecessary parts of the mechanical water pump. I wonder if they plug the cases underneath the water pump cover? No impeller, no gear? It wouldn't be a huge stretch to imagine a fabricated piece to replace the pump cover itself, although I hadn't noticed that in the pictures.
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soggy
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soggy 1/11/2022 8:37am
1/11/2022 8:37am
Falcon wrote:
You are correct, but I'd bet the heat differential will help the engine more than it hurts the battery.
JK BRO wrote:
I totally agree, I'm not saying it's not worth the upgrade. I just wanted to state that the take away is the increased draw from the...
I totally agree, I'm not saying it's not worth the upgrade. I just wanted to state that the take away is the increased draw from the electrical system. If race teams are on the bandwagon it's probably a decent product. Increased coolant flow GPM is always a good thing.

I would consider the weight since the bikes are still manufactured with mechanical water pumps.

I appreciate the mature response btw. Cheers

It’s minor weight reduction but you can take out the impeller and machine a lighter water pump cover and possibly remove 1 or 2 hoses since you don’t need to run into water pump anymore. also maybe less coolant volume saving weight?
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Falcon
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Falcon 1/11/2022 11:35am
1/11/2022 11:35am
Falcon wrote:
You are correct, but I'd bet the heat differential will help the engine more than it hurts the battery.
JK BRO wrote:
I totally agree, I'm not saying it's not worth the upgrade. I just wanted to state that the take away is the increased draw from the...
I totally agree, I'm not saying it's not worth the upgrade. I just wanted to state that the take away is the increased draw from the electrical system. If race teams are on the bandwagon it's probably a decent product. Increased coolant flow GPM is always a good thing.

I would consider the weight since the bikes are still manufactured with mechanical water pumps.

I appreciate the mature response btw. Cheers

soggy wrote:
It’s minor weight reduction but you can take out the impeller and machine a lighter water pump cover and possibly remove 1 or 2 hoses since...
It’s minor weight reduction but you can take out the impeller and machine a lighter water pump cover and possibly remove 1 or 2 hoses since you don’t need to run into water pump anymore. also maybe less coolant volume saving weight?
Can't reduce the number of hoses, since the electric pump just replaces the mechanical one - it still needs hoses fed to it. Also, the water volume is a tradeoff; less volume may reduce weight, but it means higher water temp. Of course, with a constant flow, that effect may be mitigated.

I still like the idea.
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#434
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#434 1/11/2022 12:37pm
1/11/2022 12:37pm
Makes me wonder: Will the new Stark Varg have a mechanical water pump then Huh
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Mm471
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Mm471 1/11/2022 1:46pm
1/11/2022 1:46pm
Brett_Clark wrote:
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to...
For the ones that think there isn't any benefits to the electric water pump clearly don't understand these teams have proved they are a benefit to run. Star Yamaha has the baddest 250 on the gate and deleting that mechanical load made it better. Xpr is a well known engine company. They aren't throwing this on for show. The old school drag guys in here know all about eliminating engine loads. Rather it's running the alternator off the pinion, electric water pumps, electric over hydraulic steering, dry sump oil systems etc. It all makes a difference in the engines performance. This is technology that we will see standard on mx bikes in the years to come.
Lasse wrote:
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system...
Whether it be mechanically driven or by electricity, the work has to come from somewhere, making it electrial will increase the resistance in the electric system, nothing is for free.
The battery is a buffer, the electrical system can fill it up all the time, if you were talking overall efficiency then ya the work is the similar but this stops the engine from having the accelerate the pump system as then engine revs up, snappier like if you had a lighter flywheel
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soggy
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soggy 1/11/2022 1:47pm
1/11/2022 1:47pm
#434 wrote:
Makes me wonder: Will the new Stark Varg have a mechanical water pump then Huh
The Varg is air cooled.
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#434
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#434 1/11/2022 2:30pm
1/11/2022 2:30pm
#434 wrote:
Makes me wonder: Will the new Stark Varg have a mechanical water pump then Huh
soggy wrote:
The Varg is air cooled.
The battery is, but the engine and electronic must be water cooled. No way these components are air cooled without big fins and a fan.
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CPan
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CPan 3/9/2022 5:28am
3/9/2022 5:28am
I’m a sucker for cool new tech. Is anyone offering these kits to the public yet?
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bvm111 3/9/2022 5:42am
3/9/2022 5:42am
CPan wrote:
I’m a sucker for cool new tech. Is anyone offering these kits to the public yet?
XPR is selling them
profeshenal125 3/9/2022 7:47am
3/9/2022 7:47am
ML512 wrote:
MCR 250 from Chad at XPR… [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/01/07/527243/s1200_8537B63B_F646_452D_B302_2BADF16A6032.jpg[/img]
MCR 250 from Chad at XPR…


Looks like it would break easy. Too many parts to go wrong, bad electric connection bike blows up. I designed a manual and remove air clutch for a 3418 cat engine with a 5 sp trans in 1990. On a mud rig. Much faster shifting and the remote option is cool. Jetts manager could do up shifts from the tower on Jetts bike. Larocco s leap Jett says I,m not going for it. Jetts manager says , oh Yes you are. Haha
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tek14
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tek14 3/9/2022 12:28pm
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CPan wrote:
I’m a sucker for cool new tech. Is anyone offering these kits to the public yet?
bvm111 wrote:
XPR is selling them
How much they take from 70 dollars pump and wires to battery?
wicksy85
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wicksy85 2/8/2024 9:42pm
2/8/2024 9:42pm

20240124 154037we got a Twisted Development one on a bike we bought, its so different hearing it before start up and the boy will have to remember to hit stop button again when he finishes riding to turn it off haha.

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Richy
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Richy 2/8/2024 11:40pm
2/8/2024 11:40pm

So yours is just in an on/off application via a button/switch?

There was talk earlier in the thread of variable speed. That would need a fancy factory ECU (beyond a simple switched ground output like other ECU's) or an external module to control duty cycle via PWM, which seems maybe unnecessary?

Interested if HRC etc still use the simpler approach. The bikes are fired up and basically just run wide open so I guess there's no real downside to running it flat out constantly.

#434
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#434 2/9/2024 3:07am
2/9/2024 3:07am Edited Date/Time 2/9/2024 3:09am
Richy wrote:
So yours is just in an on/off application via a button/switch? There was talk earlier in the thread of variable speed. That would need a fancy...

So yours is just in an on/off application via a button/switch?

There was talk earlier in the thread of variable speed. That would need a fancy factory ECU (beyond a simple switched ground output like other ECU's) or an external module to control duty cycle via PWM, which seems maybe unnecessary?

Interested if HRC etc still use the simpler approach. The bikes are fired up and basically just run wide open so I guess there's no real downside to running it flat out constantly.

I suggested that, but I doesn’t make sense to put such a system on a race bike. What they could do is adjust the rpms of the pump to the actual water temp. That would be pretty simple to do. The pump could spin up if the engine starts to overheat. But they probably run it full tilt all the time because the energy in the battery is free. 
I‘m kinda surprised it’s actually legal.. you take load of the engine and use a battery to run the pump. Therefore you have more power and less fuel consumption by using the power of a battery you charged beforehand in the pits. Sure you have to carry a heavy battery, but you get more power in a class that’s all about power. Maybe that’s why we don’t see them in the 450s. 

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Falcon
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Falcon 2/9/2024 7:35am
2/9/2024 7:35am

^It ain't illegal until the rules say so. Cool

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ILoveMoto
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ILoveMoto 2/9/2024 7:42am
2/9/2024 7:42am

This is a cool topic 

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AMetts 2/9/2024 7:43am
2/9/2024 7:43am

These would be pretty sweet for a off-road setup especially hard enduro type stuff. Can run the pump wide open flowing tons of water even though bike is at idle. Have a fan on the radiator and you have a slick setup. 

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Village Idiot
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Village Idiot 2/9/2024 7:43am
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Falcon wrote:
^It ain't illegal until the rules say so. 

^It ain't illegal until the rules say so. Cool

Even then, it ain't illegal until they penalize you. (ask Huntah!)  Cool

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ToolMaker
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ToolMaker 2/9/2024 3:40pm
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Falcon wrote:
^It ain't illegal until the rules say so. 

^It ain't illegal until the rules say so. Cool

Village Idiot wrote:
Even then, it ain't illegal until they penalize you. (ask Huntah!)  

Even then, it ain't illegal until they penalize you. (ask Huntah!)  Cool

Are you buddies with Magoofan?

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