Pro age rule, youth wasted? Kitchen and Kilroy aren’t the only fast guys in the amateurs.

DC
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8/18/2021 5:42am
Jack_Wagon wrote:
Our Pro Racing program is what's truly flawed. Two laps of practice and then straight into qualifying??? No time to learn the track, no time to...
Our Pro Racing program is what's truly flawed. Two laps of practice and then straight into qualifying??? No time to learn the track, no time to make changes to the bike, no time to try different lines. Sure there's two sessions, but probably 90% of the time the fast laps come in the first 3 laps of the first session. Want to train our amateurs for the pros? Give them two laps of practice then tell them to go as fast as they can, otherwise go home. The National program really needs an overhaul. I feel this is the main reason we have fallen behind the Euros.
We spend more than half the year focused on supercross. They spend the entire year focused on outdoor motocross. People complain about our outdoor skills, but no one mentions our supercross skills. We're trying to do two entirely different types of racing, they focus on one. It shows sometimes.

DC
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yak651
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8/18/2021 6:19am
CPR wrote:
The age rule is fine, what’s missing is an AMX125 class.
yak651 wrote:
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented...
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented racers
DC wrote:
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before...
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before and didn't forget this fact, it's just not part of the "lower the age" conversation.

MXGP has maybe 18 actual races a year; AMA has 30. Teams do not want two-day events, they are already on the road for too long. I wish I could change their minds but I can't. And I don't think anyone wants SX-only deals for many, which is what we had before.

DC
Racer X

I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on Saturday the "EMX" style classes could be Friday or Sunday. If on Friday could maybe have the 2nd moto for one of the classes at "intermission". The TV package is already spread to (2) channels, so they wouln't have to make time for it/show it. All the support personal are already there, they don't just show up Saturday, put the tent up and go racing...I guess we keep doing the same thing and be afraid of change/trying something new because a couple people are set in their ways.
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DC
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8/18/2021 6:40am
yak651 wrote:
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented...
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented racers
DC wrote:
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before...
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before and didn't forget this fact, it's just not part of the "lower the age" conversation.

MXGP has maybe 18 actual races a year; AMA has 30. Teams do not want two-day events, they are already on the road for too long. I wish I could change their minds but I can't. And I don't think anyone wants SX-only deals for many, which is what we had before.

DC
Racer X

yak651 wrote:
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on...
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on Saturday the "EMX" style classes could be Friday or Sunday. If on Friday could maybe have the 2nd moto for one of the classes at "intermission". The TV package is already spread to (2) channels, so they wouln't have to make time for it/show it. All the support personal are already there, they don't just show up Saturday, put the tent up and go racing...I guess we keep doing the same thing and be afraid of change/trying something new because a couple people are set in their ways.
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
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TooTallJason
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8/18/2021 7:14am
DC wrote:
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we...
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
Racer X
Please, please, please tell me that this "combine" will be broadcast in some capacity.

But I have to ask, is this designed more for the unheralded amateurs vs. the ones already signed to teams?
2

The Shop

yak651
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8/18/2021 7:34am
DC wrote:
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before...
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before and didn't forget this fact, it's just not part of the "lower the age" conversation.

MXGP has maybe 18 actual races a year; AMA has 30. Teams do not want two-day events, they are already on the road for too long. I wish I could change their minds but I can't. And I don't think anyone wants SX-only deals for many, which is what we had before.

DC
Racer X

yak651 wrote:
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on...
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on Saturday the "EMX" style classes could be Friday or Sunday. If on Friday could maybe have the 2nd moto for one of the classes at "intermission". The TV package is already spread to (2) channels, so they wouln't have to make time for it/show it. All the support personal are already there, they don't just show up Saturday, put the tent up and go racing...I guess we keep doing the same thing and be afraid of change/trying something new because a couple people are set in their ways.
DC wrote:
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we...
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
Racer X
Is there more information out there about this "combine"? Sounds interesting, and glad something new is being tried
1
Johnny Depp
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8/18/2021 8:20am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2021 8:24am
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s. Thank goodness we saved Matti. He...
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s.
Thank goodness we saved Matti. He won the Qualifiers and 1st moto, but was surely a risk to himself and others…

Slow day in Morgantown?
DC wrote:
None of those guys were the "FMOTP" until they were older. James Stewart in 2002 didn't even win the 125 SX series, and outdoors, Carmichael went...
None of those guys were the "FMOTP" until they were older. James Stewart in 2002 didn't even win the 125 SX series, and outdoors, Carmichael went 24-0 in the 250 class...

And of all the guys you mention--Triples, Tortelli, Lechien, Bradshaw, Reynard, Roczen--only Roczen ever won a premier-class AMA title. They all got hurt early and often, which is exactly what would happen to a 15-year-old on a 450 in SX/MX, but we'll never take that chance because it's the wrong thing to do.

And there's never a slow day in Morgantown, but when I see something as stupid as your argument here, it's fun to bench race a little, knowing I won't be wasting any tear-offs... (just kidding there, I do enjoy a good bench race and good ideas, I just don't feel like this is the direction SX/MX should go in this day and age)

Carry on.

DC
Racer X
You don't need to be the next GOAT to race AMA pro. I do think it's the right place to develop future champions. It means most will use a lot of tear offs, unlike the current Amateur scene with a class for everyone. There is ample history of young race winners, and IMO that should be encouraged rather than a "career" of chasing amateur events.

Getting hurt happens no matter the age. My FB feed is full of LL hopeful's that will have to heal up and wait another year.

450's should not be limited by age, they are the easiest of all to go fast on, and are the most affordable to race. And it should be an open class again. When will e-bikes be addressed? and 2t's.

With the FIM allowing pro's at 15 for over 10 years, this is not some hair brained conspiracy, rather a proven track record of Euro's passing up the U.S.. SX is no excuse, that existed the entire time that the MXon streak of U.S. wins so nothing new there.

Thanks for the improved track surfaces this year, it has made for better racing.
13
DC
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8/18/2021 8:20am
yak651 wrote:
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on...
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on Saturday the "EMX" style classes could be Friday or Sunday. If on Friday could maybe have the 2nd moto for one of the classes at "intermission". The TV package is already spread to (2) channels, so they wouln't have to make time for it/show it. All the support personal are already there, they don't just show up Saturday, put the tent up and go racing...I guess we keep doing the same thing and be afraid of change/trying something new because a couple people are set in their ways.
DC wrote:
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we...
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
Racer X
yak651 wrote:
Is there more information out there about this "combine"? Sounds interesting, and glad something new is being tried
The whole project was more or less Ryan Holliday's idea. He's the Kawasaki Team Green manager and before that worked at the AMA and before that MX Sports and Racer Productions (and he's a fellow WVU graduate). It's for top A and B riders to give them an idea of what a Pro Motocross race is like, and hopefully teach a few good habits.

https://racerxonline.com/2021/07/31/amateur-scouting-combine-debuts-at-…

And while it won't all be on TV they will highlight it, and we will do some videos on it as well.

DC
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Lightning78
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8/18/2021 8:57am
"Believe the hype"
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yak651
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8/18/2021 9:50am
DC wrote:
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we...
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
Racer X
yak651 wrote:
Is there more information out there about this "combine"? Sounds interesting, and glad something new is being tried
DC wrote:
The whole project was more or less Ryan Holliday's idea. He's the Kawasaki Team Green manager and before that worked at the AMA and before that...
The whole project was more or less Ryan Holliday's idea. He's the Kawasaki Team Green manager and before that worked at the AMA and before that MX Sports and Racer Productions (and he's a fellow WVU graduate). It's for top A and B riders to give them an idea of what a Pro Motocross race is like, and hopefully teach a few good habits.

https://racerxonline.com/2021/07/31/amateur-scouting-combine-debuts-at-…

And while it won't all be on TV they will highlight it, and we will do some videos on it as well.

DC
Racer X
Thanks for the link, haven't seen that mentioned. I'm sure more info will come but would be nice to have a larger pool than 25 but realize limits need to be set. Hopefully the majority of the 25 are riders that aren't currently "on the fast track" to factory support to get eyeballs on new talent
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DC
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8/18/2021 10:15am
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s. Thank goodness we saved Matti. He...
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s.
Thank goodness we saved Matti. He won the Qualifiers and 1st moto, but was surely a risk to himself and others…

Slow day in Morgantown?
DC wrote:
None of those guys were the "FMOTP" until they were older. James Stewart in 2002 didn't even win the 125 SX series, and outdoors, Carmichael went...
None of those guys were the "FMOTP" until they were older. James Stewart in 2002 didn't even win the 125 SX series, and outdoors, Carmichael went 24-0 in the 250 class...

And of all the guys you mention--Triples, Tortelli, Lechien, Bradshaw, Reynard, Roczen--only Roczen ever won a premier-class AMA title. They all got hurt early and often, which is exactly what would happen to a 15-year-old on a 450 in SX/MX, but we'll never take that chance because it's the wrong thing to do.

And there's never a slow day in Morgantown, but when I see something as stupid as your argument here, it's fun to bench race a little, knowing I won't be wasting any tear-offs... (just kidding there, I do enjoy a good bench race and good ideas, I just don't feel like this is the direction SX/MX should go in this day and age)

Carry on.

DC
Racer X
You don't need to be the next GOAT to race AMA pro. I do think it's the right place to develop future champions. It means most...
You don't need to be the next GOAT to race AMA pro. I do think it's the right place to develop future champions. It means most will use a lot of tear offs, unlike the current Amateur scene with a class for everyone. There is ample history of young race winners, and IMO that should be encouraged rather than a "career" of chasing amateur events.

Getting hurt happens no matter the age. My FB feed is full of LL hopeful's that will have to heal up and wait another year.

450's should not be limited by age, they are the easiest of all to go fast on, and are the most affordable to race. And it should be an open class again. When will e-bikes be addressed? and 2t's.

With the FIM allowing pro's at 15 for over 10 years, this is not some hair brained conspiracy, rather a proven track record of Euro's passing up the U.S.. SX is no excuse, that existed the entire time that the MXon streak of U.S. wins so nothing new there.

Thanks for the improved track surfaces this year, it has made for better racing.
You don't need to be the GOAT, but you do need to be 16. Been that way ever since the AMA started sanctioning races in 1970, long before Loretta Lynn's, so not sure how or why it makes sense to change now that we have the most potent equipment ever...

I appreciate that the age is younger in Europe, but so is the drinking age. And while you can race MXGP at 15, you have to be 18 to have a driver's license in France, Italy, Germany, etc. For whatever reason, different countries do different things.

For what it's worth, NASCAR has similar restrictions. To compete full-time in any of NASCAR’s top three series – Cup, Xfinity or Trucks – a driver must be 18 years old. (Trucks can have drivers compete as young as 16, but that is only on tracks 1.25 miles or less in length and on road courses.)

DC
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Johnny Depp
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8/18/2021 1:46pm
DC wrote:
You don't need to be the GOAT, but you do need to be 16. Been that way ever since the AMA started sanctioning races in 1970...
You don't need to be the GOAT, but you do need to be 16. Been that way ever since the AMA started sanctioning races in 1970, long before Loretta Lynn's, so not sure how or why it makes sense to change now that we have the most potent equipment ever...

I appreciate that the age is younger in Europe, but so is the drinking age. And while you can race MXGP at 15, you have to be 18 to have a driver's license in France, Italy, Germany, etc. For whatever reason, different countries do different things.

For what it's worth, NASCAR has similar restrictions. To compete full-time in any of NASCAR’s top three series – Cup, Xfinity or Trucks – a driver must be 18 years old. (Trucks can have drivers compete as young as 16, but that is only on tracks 1.25 miles or less in length and on road courses.)

DC
Racer X
Today's young generation is the largest group of professionally trained riders ever and should have developed more great rider's earlier than ever before. The most potent equipment ever is questionable, ask Ryan Hughes or look back at Magoo.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/flashback-friday-there-will-never-be-ano… dob 10/5/59
"For the first few years of his AMA career, the Sacramento-born Magoo was an oddity. The first time he showed up at Hangtown to race a 125 National, he had to stand on a milk crate to get on his bike. At the 1976 Super Bowl of Motocross, Magoo finished 16th in the 500 support class. He ran much higher than that but flew off the track several times at full speed, often reentering the track without shutting off."
https://dirtbikemagazine.com/blast-from-the-past-danny-chandler-circa-1…


It's great that the combine is in the works, it's a step in the right direction of getting racer's racing as a pro instead of practicing to be a pro.


13
philG
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8/18/2021 4:07pm
I honestly feel that too many good riders slip through the net now due to money going to the wrong guys.

Considering how much time an effort goes into the amateur scene, with guys living at 'facilities' with more bikes than you can shake a shitty stick at , the USA hasnt produced what you would call a 'generational' talent in ages.

Who was the last one who actually delivered.

Against a backdrop of RJ and Bradshaw who won races in the premier classes at a rediculously young age, who was the last one , really ?

I would say RV.. him and Alessi coming through the ranks was awesome, as was Stewart , but who else?

When you think of the rest , AC promised loads, and has 1 title, and a litany of injuries, Forkner is looking like a repeat of that, but with nothing to show, and there have been loads of guys who have ended up stopping in the feeder classes and never made the leap.

Dungey didnt do a lot as an amateur, but proves that it doesnt really matter, Justin Cooper was the same, wasn't a stand out , and was a late bloomer,

The biggest problem the US has is the fact that amateurs dont race enough and when they do they try not to race each other at all costs.

Here in Europe, with EMX125, EMX250, we all know who is fast because there is no hiding and loads of racing , and the proper talent gets spotted straight away .

There have been plenty of guys that have been touted as ; the next big thing; here who have blown out , like Brian Hsu, Davy Pootjes, Conrad Mewse, Josia Natzke, to name a few (add Hertbretreau and Moreau to that as well) who just never lived up to billing, but it is nowhere near as bad here.

Gajser, Prado, Jonass, Herlings, have all hit the 450 class after coming through the lower classes at speed ( and Roczen) and won championships, the only one that really didnt was Romain Febvre, who was a late bloomer.

IMO guys spend too much time on supermini's and not enough on 125's on the bigger stage, which is a shame.

I hope Evan Ferry and Max Vohland, who seem to get the concept of ' to be a racer, you need to race' make it to where they need to, because i dont see anyone else who can deliver that coming through.
14
CPR
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8/18/2021 4:56pm
To add to Phil’s thoughts above that there seems to be a better framework to develop young riders outside of the States, there’s also a tendency to ‘down class’ foreign riders that come to race in the US.

From an Aussie perspective that has happened on nearly every occasion. Jeff Leisk was a multi time 500cc champ in Oz but had to spend two years on 125s when he went over. Then in his third year, when he finally got a shot in the premier classes where he belonged, lo and behold he was instantly competitive and consistently ran with RJ, Wardy and Lechien on the 500. Could he have done that sooner if allowed? Very likely.
Then with Reedy, who went straight into the premier 250 2t class in Oz when he turned pro at 16yo with instant success, had to ride the 125/250f class in the States after finishing second in the 250 World Title the previous year. In that first year during the other coast in SX, he got a couple of rides in the premier class and showed that’s where he belonged. Had he not had to ‘waste’ a year in 2002, he likely would have won the 03 SX title.
Byrner, Metty, Anderson, Mormont, Reardon etc all had to ‘down class’ when in the US, when they’d already been riding the premier class for years.

I know every rider is different and ready at different times, but I don’t agree with the ‘you must ride the smaller class first to prove yourself’ mentality, especially when riders are already past that stage. It doesn’t achieve anything but hold the rider back. Yes rides are limited but if you hire a rider on their results in a premier class, let them ride that class.

It seems nearly every country outside of the USA has a development type class on the same day as the 250 and 450 title series. I understand that logistics make adding a class difficult, but if it’s truly for the best long term vision of the sport, maybe it’s time for a serious rejig? A 125 development class fits that need perfectly. And if a rider is better on a certain size bike, let them ride it regardless of age.
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Forty
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8/18/2021 6:03pm
I’d prefer they ride later into their careers than start earlier.
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APLMAN99
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CPR wrote:
To add to Phil’s thoughts above that there seems to be a better framework to develop young riders outside of the States, there’s also a tendency...
To add to Phil’s thoughts above that there seems to be a better framework to develop young riders outside of the States, there’s also a tendency to ‘down class’ foreign riders that come to race in the US.

From an Aussie perspective that has happened on nearly every occasion. Jeff Leisk was a multi time 500cc champ in Oz but had to spend two years on 125s when he went over. Then in his third year, when he finally got a shot in the premier classes where he belonged, lo and behold he was instantly competitive and consistently ran with RJ, Wardy and Lechien on the 500. Could he have done that sooner if allowed? Very likely.
Then with Reedy, who went straight into the premier 250 2t class in Oz when he turned pro at 16yo with instant success, had to ride the 125/250f class in the States after finishing second in the 250 World Title the previous year. In that first year during the other coast in SX, he got a couple of rides in the premier class and showed that’s where he belonged. Had he not had to ‘waste’ a year in 2002, he likely would have won the 03 SX title.
Byrner, Metty, Anderson, Mormont, Reardon etc all had to ‘down class’ when in the US, when they’d already been riding the premier class for years.

I know every rider is different and ready at different times, but I don’t agree with the ‘you must ride the smaller class first to prove yourself’ mentality, especially when riders are already past that stage. It doesn’t achieve anything but hold the rider back. Yes rides are limited but if you hire a rider on their results in a premier class, let them ride that class.

It seems nearly every country outside of the USA has a development type class on the same day as the 250 and 450 title series. I understand that logistics make adding a class difficult, but if it’s truly for the best long term vision of the sport, maybe it’s time for a serious rejig? A 125 development class fits that need perfectly. And if a rider is better on a certain size bike, let them ride it regardless of age.
You sort of had me til the Reed comments……

First of all, there was no age rule that forced Reed to ride in the ‘lesser’ class in 2002. So nothing about him applies to that, really.

Secondly, while Reed had a fantastic first year in the ‘premier’ SX class, it was also a year of massive injuries and Carmichael ‘managing’ the championship.

So while Reed had a great finish that year, let’s not rewrite history and put an asterisk on that SX title….!
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CPR
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8/18/2021 8:18pm
CPR wrote:
To add to Phil’s thoughts above that there seems to be a better framework to develop young riders outside of the States, there’s also a tendency...
To add to Phil’s thoughts above that there seems to be a better framework to develop young riders outside of the States, there’s also a tendency to ‘down class’ foreign riders that come to race in the US.

From an Aussie perspective that has happened on nearly every occasion. Jeff Leisk was a multi time 500cc champ in Oz but had to spend two years on 125s when he went over. Then in his third year, when he finally got a shot in the premier classes where he belonged, lo and behold he was instantly competitive and consistently ran with RJ, Wardy and Lechien on the 500. Could he have done that sooner if allowed? Very likely.
Then with Reedy, who went straight into the premier 250 2t class in Oz when he turned pro at 16yo with instant success, had to ride the 125/250f class in the States after finishing second in the 250 World Title the previous year. In that first year during the other coast in SX, he got a couple of rides in the premier class and showed that’s where he belonged. Had he not had to ‘waste’ a year in 2002, he likely would have won the 03 SX title.
Byrner, Metty, Anderson, Mormont, Reardon etc all had to ‘down class’ when in the US, when they’d already been riding the premier class for years.

I know every rider is different and ready at different times, but I don’t agree with the ‘you must ride the smaller class first to prove yourself’ mentality, especially when riders are already past that stage. It doesn’t achieve anything but hold the rider back. Yes rides are limited but if you hire a rider on their results in a premier class, let them ride that class.

It seems nearly every country outside of the USA has a development type class on the same day as the 250 and 450 title series. I understand that logistics make adding a class difficult, but if it’s truly for the best long term vision of the sport, maybe it’s time for a serious rejig? A 125 development class fits that need perfectly. And if a rider is better on a certain size bike, let them ride it regardless of age.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You sort of had me til the Reed comments…… First of all, there was no age rule that forced Reed to ride in the ‘lesser’ class...
You sort of had me til the Reed comments……

First of all, there was no age rule that forced Reed to ride in the ‘lesser’ class in 2002. So nothing about him applies to that, really.

Secondly, while Reed had a fantastic first year in the ‘premier’ SX class, it was also a year of massive injuries and Carmichael ‘managing’ the championship.

So while Reed had a great finish that year, let’s not rewrite history and put an asterisk on that SX title….!
That’s not what I was saying….
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Bearuno
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8/19/2021 1:36am
The "down classing"?

You take the rides you can get - you're not offered / able to get a good package in your preferred class, or, conversely, you Are offered / able to get a ride in a class that enables you to race at a decent level, you take it. Or, you forgo an opportunity.

It's as simple as that.
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8/19/2021 2:31am
philG wrote:
I honestly feel that too many good riders slip through the net now due to money going to the wrong guys. Considering how much time an...
I honestly feel that too many good riders slip through the net now due to money going to the wrong guys.

Considering how much time an effort goes into the amateur scene, with guys living at 'facilities' with more bikes than you can shake a shitty stick at , the USA hasnt produced what you would call a 'generational' talent in ages.

Who was the last one who actually delivered.

Against a backdrop of RJ and Bradshaw who won races in the premier classes at a rediculously young age, who was the last one , really ?

I would say RV.. him and Alessi coming through the ranks was awesome, as was Stewart , but who else?

When you think of the rest , AC promised loads, and has 1 title, and a litany of injuries, Forkner is looking like a repeat of that, but with nothing to show, and there have been loads of guys who have ended up stopping in the feeder classes and never made the leap.

Dungey didnt do a lot as an amateur, but proves that it doesnt really matter, Justin Cooper was the same, wasn't a stand out , and was a late bloomer,

The biggest problem the US has is the fact that amateurs dont race enough and when they do they try not to race each other at all costs.

Here in Europe, with EMX125, EMX250, we all know who is fast because there is no hiding and loads of racing , and the proper talent gets spotted straight away .

There have been plenty of guys that have been touted as ; the next big thing; here who have blown out , like Brian Hsu, Davy Pootjes, Conrad Mewse, Josia Natzke, to name a few (add Hertbretreau and Moreau to that as well) who just never lived up to billing, but it is nowhere near as bad here.

Gajser, Prado, Jonass, Herlings, have all hit the 450 class after coming through the lower classes at speed ( and Roczen) and won championships, the only one that really didnt was Romain Febvre, who was a late bloomer.

IMO guys spend too much time on supermini's and not enough on 125's on the bigger stage, which is a shame.

I hope Evan Ferry and Max Vohland, who seem to get the concept of ' to be a racer, you need to race' make it to where they need to, because i dont see anyone else who can deliver that coming through.
Another thing to consider is that there are no supermini's in Europe. Maybe that contributes to the fact that kids in Europe are getting off the 85's sooner.
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yak651
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8/19/2021 5:54am
philG wrote:
I honestly feel that too many good riders slip through the net now due to money going to the wrong guys. Considering how much time an...
I honestly feel that too many good riders slip through the net now due to money going to the wrong guys.

Considering how much time an effort goes into the amateur scene, with guys living at 'facilities' with more bikes than you can shake a shitty stick at , the USA hasnt produced what you would call a 'generational' talent in ages.

Who was the last one who actually delivered.

Against a backdrop of RJ and Bradshaw who won races in the premier classes at a rediculously young age, who was the last one , really ?

I would say RV.. him and Alessi coming through the ranks was awesome, as was Stewart , but who else?

When you think of the rest , AC promised loads, and has 1 title, and a litany of injuries, Forkner is looking like a repeat of that, but with nothing to show, and there have been loads of guys who have ended up stopping in the feeder classes and never made the leap.

Dungey didnt do a lot as an amateur, but proves that it doesnt really matter, Justin Cooper was the same, wasn't a stand out , and was a late bloomer,

The biggest problem the US has is the fact that amateurs dont race enough and when they do they try not to race each other at all costs.

Here in Europe, with EMX125, EMX250, we all know who is fast because there is no hiding and loads of racing , and the proper talent gets spotted straight away .

There have been plenty of guys that have been touted as ; the next big thing; here who have blown out , like Brian Hsu, Davy Pootjes, Conrad Mewse, Josia Natzke, to name a few (add Hertbretreau and Moreau to that as well) who just never lived up to billing, but it is nowhere near as bad here.

Gajser, Prado, Jonass, Herlings, have all hit the 450 class after coming through the lower classes at speed ( and Roczen) and won championships, the only one that really didnt was Romain Febvre, who was a late bloomer.

IMO guys spend too much time on supermini's and not enough on 125's on the bigger stage, which is a shame.

I hope Evan Ferry and Max Vohland, who seem to get the concept of ' to be a racer, you need to race' make it to where they need to, because i dont see anyone else who can deliver that coming through.
Great analysis would like to hear DC's commentary on it. Agree with you on the kids not racing enough and then when they do they pull out of 2nd motos to keep the average down so they can compete another year at LL. Would like to see a graphic on how many kids get factory support after a top 5 finish in the B classes at LL or even pro sport classes. I can't imagine it's very confidence inspiring...I know it's the dream but just seems to be a waste and a year after you never hear from these kids again (and you know they would qualify for pro nationals if they tried).


On the euro side - what's the status of Liam Everts? Used to hear his name a lot of 65s but haven't seen much since (admit I don't follow the EMX classes so maybe he is in there).
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Bearuno
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8/19/2021 6:18am
Liam Everts?

Racing in EMX250, and doing quite well.

Doubtless some Wankers will think he's not doing well, but, they are, after all, Wankers.

His Dad, , and his Grandad, know MX just a little bit, and, his family seem to be doing well at keeping the massive, Massive expectations from him - generally, expectations from said Wankers.

I'm repeating Wankers so much, as that's what I think of people that go on about what They expect / want to see of a riders progression and pathway in this sport of ours. Look to your own (directed to the Wankers), not others youngsters, for f**ks sake. It's none of your business.

He's going into MX2 next year, apparently. He's contracted to KTM, from what I can gather, so they've got to sort out which KTM Group Team (so, three colours available) he'll be in.

He's been announced as being in Belgium's MXDN Team, just recently, with other riders concentrating on the World Championships, (and injuries) which is fair enough.
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yak651
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8/19/2021 7:58am
Bearuno wrote:
Liam Everts? Racing in EMX250, and doing quite well. Doubtless some Wankers will think he's not doing well, but, they are, after all, Wankers. His Dad...
Liam Everts?

Racing in EMX250, and doing quite well.

Doubtless some Wankers will think he's not doing well, but, they are, after all, Wankers.

His Dad, , and his Grandad, know MX just a little bit, and, his family seem to be doing well at keeping the massive, Massive expectations from him - generally, expectations from said Wankers.

I'm repeating Wankers so much, as that's what I think of people that go on about what They expect / want to see of a riders progression and pathway in this sport of ours. Look to your own (directed to the Wankers), not others youngsters, for f**ks sake. It's none of your business.

He's going into MX2 next year, apparently. He's contracted to KTM, from what I can gather, so they've got to sort out which KTM Group Team (so, three colours available) he'll be in.

He's been announced as being in Belgium's MXDN Team, just recently, with other riders concentrating on the World Championships, (and injuries) which is fair enough.
Can do without all the wankers talk but thanks for the update!
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GrapeApe
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8/19/2021 10:23am
Bearuno wrote:
Liam Everts? Racing in EMX250, and doing quite well. Doubtless some Wankers will think he's not doing well, but, they are, after all, Wankers. His Dad...
Liam Everts?

Racing in EMX250, and doing quite well.

Doubtless some Wankers will think he's not doing well, but, they are, after all, Wankers.

His Dad, , and his Grandad, know MX just a little bit, and, his family seem to be doing well at keeping the massive, Massive expectations from him - generally, expectations from said Wankers.

I'm repeating Wankers so much, as that's what I think of people that go on about what They expect / want to see of a riders progression and pathway in this sport of ours. Look to your own (directed to the Wankers), not others youngsters, for f**ks sake. It's none of your business.

He's going into MX2 next year, apparently. He's contracted to KTM, from what I can gather, so they've got to sort out which KTM Group Team (so, three colours available) he'll be in.

He's been announced as being in Belgium's MXDN Team, just recently, with other riders concentrating on the World Championships, (and injuries) which is fair enough.
yak651 wrote:
Can do without all the wankers talk but thanks for the update!
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philG
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8/19/2021 11:23am
Another thing to factor in is distance, I have raced 8 seasons in Germany, based from here in the UK, and can drive to half the GP's from here (3 hours to the ferry) Lommel . Leirop, Valkenswaard are all 3 hours the other side, Teuschenthal is 6 , as is St Jean, Ernne is about 4. All the italian races are in the north, pretty much, so that is 8 hours , iLoket is only just over the border.of Germany we would drive to that ( and have done) .

That is pretty much the whole series in a distance less than driving from Northern to Southern California.


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8/19/2021 9:29pm
yak651 wrote:
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on...
I agree we don't want SX contracts BUT would extending the race weekend really affect the KR, ET, DF....level riders? Their race would still be on Saturday the "EMX" style classes could be Friday or Sunday. If on Friday could maybe have the 2nd moto for one of the classes at "intermission". The TV package is already spread to (2) channels, so they wouln't have to make time for it/show it. All the support personal are already there, they don't just show up Saturday, put the tent up and go racing...I guess we keep doing the same thing and be afraid of change/trying something new because a couple people are set in their ways.
DC wrote:
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we...
You aren't factoring in overtime TV production staff (60 people) and the costs associated with even one extra hour, let alone an extra day. And we have amateur classes at most of the nationals, they just aren't part a "series" that tallies points and a championship from one race to the next. And there's also all of the big amateur races that families are already going to: Loretta Lynn's, Mini O's, Mammoth Mountain, JS7 Spring National, RCSX at Daytona, SX Futures, etc. What we need IMO is to make the premier motos at those events longer, as well as what we are trying at Ironman and Fox Raceway 2, which is a day-long, NFL-style "combine" for top A and B riders that the OEMs are all participating in. If that goes well, maybe there will be four next year...

It's not as easy as just adding a day and a couple classes, like some think. There's lots going on, and the appetite and budgets for longer weekends just isn't there right now.

DC
Racer X
yak651 wrote:
Is there more information out there about this "combine"? Sounds interesting, and glad something new is being tried
Something new is good, but isn’t it invite only. A Wi. Kid who got a 4th in a 125c moto at LL. Is usually 6 to 8 th at Millville 10 round series in the 125 class. Other Mn., Wi. And Iowa riders are beating him. But they don’t go to LL, so there excluded. I,m parked 40 mi east of the LL track, a lot muggier and hot than the race week. A lot of rain also.
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chasetwo79
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8/20/2021 9:56am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/17/506094/s1200_AC2DBD0E_4F43_4A5A_B7C2_5F497C13D069.jpg[/img]

And he never won a premier title… maybe things go different if he waits another 2 years to go pro…

And this stuff with Stew. Yes he won a title quickly, but there were a lot of pointless crashes and concussions in those early years. Maybe a little maturity and growing up off the bike would’ve helped that a bit and we would have had a better back half of James’ career to be blessed with.

This is the stupidest argument yet Depp just keeps going.
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Johnny Depp
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8/20/2021 2:09pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/17/506094/s1200_AC2DBD0E_4F43_4A5A_B7C2_5F497C13D069.jpg[/img]

chasetwo79 wrote:
And he never won a premier title… maybe things go different if he waits another 2 years to go pro… And this stuff with Stew. Yes...
And he never won a premier title… maybe things go different if he waits another 2 years to go pro…

And this stuff with Stew. Yes he won a title quickly, but there were a lot of pointless crashes and concussions in those early years. Maybe a little maturity and growing up off the bike would’ve helped that a bit and we would have had a better back half of James’ career to be blessed with.

This is the stupidest argument yet Depp just keeps going.
Over and Over the counter argument is that these early beginner's never won a title except Stew. The same could be said for hundreds and thousands of rider's who started late, and never won a title or a race. If the only rider's that should come out of the amateur's are the one's capable of winning the title, that is an awfully high bar.

Injuries don't only happen to young rider's. I say go race and quit practicing while you still have the body to get the job done, and the family to support you. You won't get any healthier as it goes on.
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philG
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8/20/2021 3:01pm
Over and Over the counter argument is that these early beginner's never won a title except Stew. The same could be said for hundreds and thousands...
Over and Over the counter argument is that these early beginner's never won a title except Stew. The same could be said for hundreds and thousands of rider's who started late, and never won a title or a race. If the only rider's that should come out of the amateur's are the one's capable of winning the title, that is an awfully high bar.

Injuries don't only happen to young rider's. I say go race and quit practicing while you still have the body to get the job done, and the family to support you. You won't get any healthier as it goes on.
The top and bottom of this is that kids and parents, are sucked into the whole 'facitly' thing , when the reality is that most of them wont make it .

Because of the fact they spend a lot of time and money just riding round facilities and not actually racing, and when they do , they try to ride classes that keep them away from each other, its almost impossible to know who is really fast and who isnt.

Am i right in thinking that McAdoo was on the fringes for a while before breaking out, he was never a prospect but usually finished 3rd to 2 guys that were, yet here he is, (or was) doing great.

I have followed LL for fair few years , and remember the early days . and back then there were guys who killed it on minis and superminis who never broke through, and now it seems like there are less top guys, and even less of them make it.

I want to see the top guys race each other, not spread over 6 classes.
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8/23/2021 4:42pm
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally? Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis...
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally?

Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis.

I'm failing to see any connection there, literal, figurative, or conceptual, other than the vehicles both have wheels, albeit a different amount of wheels.

DC wrote:
Go tell that to the insurance-provider of your professional series.

DC
Racer X
Ohhh, so only litigious.

That's DEFINITELY arbitrary enough.

👌
4
Johnny Depp
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8/23/2021 9:13pm
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally? Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis...
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally?

Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis.

I'm failing to see any connection there, literal, figurative, or conceptual, other than the vehicles both have wheels, albeit a different amount of wheels.

DC wrote:
Go tell that to the insurance-provider of your professional series.

DC
Racer X
Ohhh, so only litigious.

That's DEFINITELY arbitrary enough.

👌
The same provider they use at LL's no doubtTongue
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