Possible group buy: 98-02, 03-04 CR125 replacement cylinder with corrected port and transfer layout

garyr87
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San Diego, CA US
Edited Date/Time 9/27/2022 7:50pm
Hello everyone, I am a long time VitalMX lurker, a mechanical engineer and big time fan of the late CR125. Even by today's standards, the last generation CR125 aluminum frame is simply outstanding in terms of handling, suspension and high speed stability. Well the old school KYB suspension components are dated but they can be swapped for newer Showa components for pretty darn cheap these days. The real problem with the CR125 is the motor characteristics from 98-04. After lots of reading, research, conversations with folks connected to Honda and many hours pondering solutions, I think the best bet is quite literally to start from scratch with the cylinder. I am willing to take the time to develop a new cylinder, that will look externally identical to an OEM cylinder however, it will boast a different port layout (kind of). I have been taking data from an 02' CR125 cylinder and an 05' YZ125 cylinder and what I have found is quite astonishing. The port areas and timings are VERY close. The YZ125 does boast a much better bust port in terms of shape and velocity but, the bust port isn't exactly a very effective port to begin with. What the YZ125 does have and what is hard to correct on the CR125 is port shapes and angles that are much more effective. Just glancing at the YZ125 cylinder and you can see that it does a much better job of aiming the charge at the rear of the cylinder and keeping the velocity up, if you know a bit about air flow that is. My goal is to cast a new CR125 cylinder with more YZ125 like port shapes and hopefully correct the weakest part of the CR125. The cases will need to matched to the new transfer layout however, I plan to make plastic stuffers to make it simple. If you look at the 05' up CR125 cylinder and cases, that is exactly what was done...copy the YZ125. If things work out, later I would like to take it a step further and add auxiliary exhaust ports (a la KTM) and see how things go. I have access to CFD software, I can write porting programs easily and make my own testing equipment. I am willing to make the investment for tooling and prototyping but I am curious if others would buy a new cylinder if in fact it proved to be functional and reliable. What would you spend on an old warhorse like that? The prototype cylinders would go to a reputable tuner ie. Dan Lamy, Terry Varner, etc. I would let them sort out those details however, I think I can offer a much better canvas to work with then Honda did. I am also going to do what I can to get the carb inlet straightened out but of course I will be limited by the space available. I do see room for improvement though. As I go through this process, if I do, I will be sharing the my testing methods and technical information. This is for fun, not profit.
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1/31/2017 11:48am Edited Date/Time 2/1/2017 6:05am
We would be happy to plate your cylinder, but castings are very expensive and you have to make a lot units to justify the cost. You could build one from billet much cheaper. We would have no desire to help fund the development costs, but if you did the development, we have the resource to make the part a reality.
2
Bruce372
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1/31/2017 6:41pm
I would look at the late model rm125 cylinder, it uses one large main port and two boost ports copied from ktm. Works really good when ported right and you don't have to deal with the exhaust bridge issues
garyr87
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1/31/2017 7:03pm Edited Date/Time 1/31/2017 7:10pm
We would be happy to plate your cylinder, but castings are very expensive and you have to make a lot units to justify the cost. You...
We would be happy to plate your cylinder, but castings are very expensive and you have to make a lot units to justify the cost. You could build one from billet much cheaper. We would have no desire to help fund the development costs, but if you did the development, we have the resource to make the part a reality.
I'll certainly keep you guys in mind when the time comes. I am reserving the billet for the more complex changes. I like the cast cylinders because they look externally OEM.
1
garyr87
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1/31/2017 7:09pm
Bruce372 wrote:
I would look at the late model rm125 cylinder, it uses one large main port and two boost ports copied from ktm. Works really good when...
I would look at the late model rm125 cylinder, it uses one large main port and two boost ports copied from ktm. Works really good when ported right and you don't have to deal with the exhaust bridge issues
Redesigning the power valve is a complex task and will add considerably to the cost of the cylinder. That said, I do like Suzuki's system better and can see it being much easier to adapt to Honda's valve actuator system. For now I am shooting a bit low but, as things progress I will up the ante. I have even thought about variable transfer port timing, especially because small changes in the transfer ports can yield entirely different engine characteristics (both good and bad unfortunately).

The Shop

CrGuy2T
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2/1/2017 3:18am
Why not just copy the Mugen cylinder and use 02 and below bottom end?
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1
garyr87
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San Diego, CA US
2/1/2017 8:03am
CrGuy2T wrote:
Why not just copy the Mugen cylinder and use 02 and below bottom end?
I have never had my hands on a Mugen cylinder but I imagine even that can be improved upon. Computational Fluid Dynamics has come a long way in the past 20 years and that's where real gains are to be head. From what I gather, port arrangements, timing and areas haven't changed much since the 90's for any of the manufacturers. What has is scavenging ability which is certainly effected by porting but also flow characteristics. I think Honda's current flap style valve is pretty solid too...I don't really like the HPP arrangement myself.
Paw Paw 271
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2/1/2017 9:18am
It sounds to me like you want a YZ engine in a Honda frame. That may be possible at a much lower cost.
The cost of the castings would be prohibitive, to say the least, mush less the machining and testing.

Paw Paw
garyr87
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2/1/2017 9:36am
It sounds to me like you want a YZ engine in a Honda frame. That may be possible at a much lower cost. The cost of...
It sounds to me like you want a YZ engine in a Honda frame. That may be possible at a much lower cost.
The cost of the castings would be prohibitive, to say the least, mush less the machining and testing.

Paw Paw
I don't mind spending the money to get things going and I have solid modeling software and access to aircraft quality CNC equipment to help keep things down. Perhaps over time I could recoup my costs. I may try to modify an 05+ cylinder to adapt the earlier style crankcase before anything else however. This would require filling and reboring the stud bores and would likely be the most challenging and important part because having the bore off center would turn into a reliability issue. The transfer passages in the cases would also need to be stuffed to match the smaller tunnels on the 05' + cylinder.
garyr87
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2/3/2017 11:08am
Quick update: Price per casting @50 units would be $249 which covers the cost of tooling. Still would need to be machined and plated. I'll have to ask Millennium what kind of deal I can get for doing 50 cylinders at once but if I can machine for around $150 and plate for $150, the cylinder would be $550. A little pricey but, not unreasonable by any means considering the cost of even the best porting and that it doesnt really fix the core issue with the CR125.
1
Phillip_Lamb
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2/3/2017 11:58am
little on the pricey side, considering you can buy a new yz125 cylinder for about 250, but if the porting is already done then it would be a good price
2
garyr87
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2/3/2017 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 2/3/2017 12:06pm
little on the pricey side, considering you can buy a new yz125 cylinder for about 250, but if the porting is already done then it would...
little on the pricey side, considering you can buy a new yz125 cylinder for about 250, but if the porting is already done then it would be a good price
Yea it's certainly not cheap. But it's a short a production run so it makes sense. Yamaha has been using that same basic casting since 96'...imagine how many they have sold and how fine tuned that process is for them. Porting will be as cast like an OEM cylinder but it won't be necessary to do any alterations unless you want a rocket ship.
10/26/2018 10:54pm Edited Date/Time 10/26/2018 11:00pm
The Mugen 125 cylinder on a 90s CR125 engine, in a modern CRF chassis CAN absolutely SMOKE any & ALL 250 & 450 'modern' production bikes with a good rider aboard. I, too, am wanting to see about getting the 90 Mugin cylinder & head replicated. Pricey? I'd drop $1,000 on one rite NOW... See Nino's YT videos of his Mugen on track....
2
CrGuy2T
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10/27/2018 6:41am
The Mugen 125 cylinder on a 90s CR125 engine, in a modern CRF chassis CAN absolutely SMOKE any & ALL 250 & 450 'modern' production bikes...
The Mugen 125 cylinder on a 90s CR125 engine, in a modern CRF chassis CAN absolutely SMOKE any & ALL 250 & 450 'modern' production bikes with a good rider aboard. I, too, am wanting to see about getting the 90 Mugin cylinder & head replicated. Pricey? I'd drop $1,000 on one rite NOW... See Nino's YT videos of his Mugen on track....
Good luck in a mugen cylinder for 1k.lol better try nore like 2500.00
2
kb228
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10/27/2018 8:26am
Make sure you factor in headroom for marketing so you can make money off this. Theres certainly a market for discontinued cylinders for hondas. Sounds like you got a good plan tho.
10/27/2018 9:45am
The Mugen 125 cylinder on a 90s CR125 engine, in a modern CRF chassis CAN absolutely SMOKE any & ALL 250 & 450 'modern' production bikes...
The Mugen 125 cylinder on a 90s CR125 engine, in a modern CRF chassis CAN absolutely SMOKE any & ALL 250 & 450 'modern' production bikes with a good rider aboard. I, too, am wanting to see about getting the 90 Mugin cylinder & head replicated. Pricey? I'd drop $1,000 on one rite NOW... See Nino's YT videos of his Mugen on track....
CrGuy2T wrote:
Good luck in a mugen cylinder for 1k.lol better try nore like 2500.00
NOW maybe you understand WHY we NEED the port timing map & possibility of building new ones.....


10/27/2018 9:50am
Could def be interested for my "factory" 2001 cr 125 build.
Jrewing
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AU
10/28/2018 1:44am Edited Date/Time 10/28/2018 1:47am
DEA Engineering in Europe make shit like that don’t they? other companies do as well. You had the numbers it’d be easy. Would run less than 1000us going of their kits. Im in!
Mx746
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10/28/2018 2:42pm
or we could reward TM with a purchase for making exactly what we're looking for? Don't worry I get it, Ive had these era cr's they're good machines. Never selling my 95, but when I see other collectors complain about ebay prices of $300 for a good used cylinder, makes me wonder if there is enough market for people who would be willing to $ for a newly developed unit.
1
Jrewing
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10/29/2018 3:19am Edited Date/Time 10/29/2018 1:12pm
Cable operated powervale to piss of the spring/ball operated governor, modern powervalve and watercooled exhaust duct, big curved staggered transfers, 150cc option. Be nice to have the old frame pull down low all the way to top!
yz133rider
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10/29/2018 7:30am
Mx746 wrote:
or we could reward TM with a purchase for making exactly what we're looking for? Don't worry I get it, Ive had these era cr's they're...
or we could reward TM with a purchase for making exactly what we're looking for? Don't worry I get it, Ive had these era cr's they're good machines. Never selling my 95, but when I see other collectors complain about ebay prices of $300 for a good used cylinder, makes me wonder if there is enough market for people who would be willing to $ for a newly developed unit.
Yes. That's why i bought a husky to reward them for listening to what riders want.

Would do the same for tm.
gavan
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8/5/2021 5:07am
where did this thread end up at, did the cylinders get made, how did they test out?
Tracktor
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8/5/2021 11:54am
Or just buy a 95-97 CR125? They handle better than the aluminum framed bikes & make power that's competitive today with just a few mods...........
1
1
8/27/2021 9:27pm
gavan wrote:
where did this thread end up at, did the cylinders get made, how did they test out?
Yeah I wondering the same. My 2nd 04 cr125 has the transfers cleaned up a little . The cylinder has 4 or 5 replace stamps on the cylinder. Runs stronger than the 1st new 04. Deck and port a 04 and it’s 6.5 hp stronger than stock. For 05-07 get a 03 kx hgs pipe tune the cylinder to that. The pipe off idle has great snap a much longer and stronger mid with 1,500 more rpm on top, aprox 38 hp. That’s with a rad valve and icat.

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Rider 5280
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8/27/2021 10:37pm
little on the pricey side, considering you can buy a new yz125 cylinder for about 250, but if the porting is already done then it would...
little on the pricey side, considering you can buy a new yz125 cylinder for about 250, but if the porting is already done then it would be a good price
garyr87 wrote:
Yea it's certainly not cheap. But it's a short a production run so it makes sense. Yamaha has been using that same basic casting since 96'...imagine...
Yea it's certainly not cheap. But it's a short a production run so it makes sense. Yamaha has been using that same basic casting since 96'...imagine how many they have sold and how fine tuned that process is for them. Porting will be as cast like an OEM cylinder but it won't be necessary to do any alterations unless you want a rocket ship.
Garyr87, how far did you get on this project?
1
gavan
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8/28/2021 2:01am Edited Date/Time 8/28/2021 2:05am
I have an 02 which has slightly different holes for crankcase, i have an 03 cylinder near new that i will modify to fit so I can do the same with the cylinders mentioned on here. I would like to know what happened on this as I would like to get the cylinder onto my bike.
90srider
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9/27/2022 7:20am
Bump
gavan
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9/27/2022 7:50pm
There is a lot involved in deisigning a new cylinder hoping it will be same as the YZ, there are other factors, pipe/ sliencer, crankcase, carb etc. It would be a pity to put all that time and effort in to find it does not work without the other bits.
I am interested in what you are thinking and happy to work in with you. Below is some history and where I am at on a similar journey, just not focused on the cylinder so much.

I owned a 2002 from new, it was very slow as the mxa articles said, during winter i sent cylinder and head to pro circuit, it totally transformed the bike, it also had PC pipe and silencer and Vforce reeds. That bike got stolen years later.
I now have a 2019 yz125 with PC pipe and silencer and vforce reeds. it is amazing. I also have another 2002 i bought a while back to eventually replace what was stolen and try to get it as close as possible to the yz. I have most of the items commented on this thread to test it all. Most recent i have the same engine work done by Pro Circuit which I am about to try. I also have multiple CR125 cyrlinders and that kx125 pipe and the PC pipe and both PC sliencers and a 38mm car b and Vforce. Oh and a full nut and bolt rebuild.
Sounds like a lot but i just wantt to see what its like compared to the yz at the same time.
I dont really believe the artiicles etc that much as my PC cr125 was great. It may be that it will be good again after i put the new PC cylinder and head on.

Ben_Tuke
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1/24/2023 2:09pm
gavan wrote:
There is a lot involved in deisigning a new cylinder hoping it will be same as the YZ, there are other factors, pipe/ sliencer, crankcase, carb...
There is a lot involved in deisigning a new cylinder hoping it will be same as the YZ, there are other factors, pipe/ sliencer, crankcase, carb etc. It would be a pity to put all that time and effort in to find it does not work without the other bits.
I am interested in what you are thinking and happy to work in with you. Below is some history and where I am at on a similar journey, just not focused on the cylinder so much.

I owned a 2002 from new, it was very slow as the mxa articles said, during winter i sent cylinder and head to pro circuit, it totally transformed the bike, it also had PC pipe and silencer and Vforce reeds. That bike got stolen years later.
I now have a 2019 yz125 with PC pipe and silencer and vforce reeds. it is amazing. I also have another 2002 i bought a while back to eventually replace what was stolen and try to get it as close as possible to the yz. I have most of the items commented on this thread to test it all. Most recent i have the same engine work done by Pro Circuit which I am about to try. I also have multiple CR125 cyrlinders and that kx125 pipe and the PC pipe and both PC sliencers and a 38mm car b and Vforce. Oh and a full nut and bolt rebuild.
Sounds like a lot but i just wantt to see what its like compared to the yz at the same time.
I dont really believe the artiicles etc that much as my PC cr125 was great. It may be that it will be good again after i put the new PC cylinder and head on.

Gavan I also have a 02 125 and I and beggin to find any way to get more up out of it. I’ve done airstriker carb, phathead hesd v force reeds, vertex high comp piston, and it still only makes around 30… if you could tell me what you did to ur and ur outcomes that would be awesome!! Thanks, Ben Tuke

gavan
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1/24/2023 4:53pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2023 4:55pm
gavan wrote:
There is a lot involved in deisigning a new cylinder hoping it will be same as the YZ, there are other factors, pipe/ sliencer, crankcase, carb...
There is a lot involved in deisigning a new cylinder hoping it will be same as the YZ, there are other factors, pipe/ sliencer, crankcase, carb etc. It would be a pity to put all that time and effort in to find it does not work without the other bits.
I am interested in what you are thinking and happy to work in with you. Below is some history and where I am at on a similar journey, just not focused on the cylinder so much.

I owned a 2002 from new, it was very slow as the mxa articles said, during winter i sent cylinder and head to pro circuit, it totally transformed the bike, it also had PC pipe and silencer and Vforce reeds. That bike got stolen years later.
I now have a 2019 yz125 with PC pipe and silencer and vforce reeds. it is amazing. I also have another 2002 i bought a while back to eventually replace what was stolen and try to get it as close as possible to the yz. I have most of the items commented on this thread to test it all. Most recent i have the same engine work done by Pro Circuit which I am about to try. I also have multiple CR125 cyrlinders and that kx125 pipe and the PC pipe and both PC sliencers and a 38mm car b and Vforce. Oh and a full nut and bolt rebuild.
Sounds like a lot but i just wantt to see what its like compared to the yz at the same time.
I dont really believe the artiicles etc that much as my PC cr125 was great. It may be that it will be good again after i put the new PC cylinder and head on.

Ben_Tuke wrote:
Gavan I also have a 02 125 and I and beggin to find any way to get more up out of it. I’ve done airstriker carb...

Gavan I also have a 02 125 and I and beggin to find any way to get more up out of it. I’ve done airstriker carb, phathead hesd v force reeds, vertex high comp piston, and it still only makes around 30… if you could tell me what you did to ur and ur outcomes that would be awesome!! Thanks, Ben Tuke

Hi Ben,

I have the cylinder back, i can tell you the bike is very easy to ride and close in power to my yz , i do have to confirm that with another rider as maybe i was changing gears better but there was little in it.

I used standard head machined by Pro Circuit and cylinder with vforce 4 reeds, stock carb, Procircuit pipe and silencer.

The porting and head work is not terribly different to the other cylinders i have the big difference is that the cylinder is now decked taking 1mm off and the head is modified to match and allow 0.8-0.9mm squish. Thats a big change in port timing. Jetting was pretty close to standard.

The decking aligns with what eric gorr recommends when he says use a suzuki piston  and head work as it gives the same effect but just 0.5mm. This changes the port timing which no other mods you have can mimmmic. It takes an experienced machine shop to deck as cylinder, head is pretty easy. You could talk to pro circuit and know what your getting.

Hope this helps.

1

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