MX vs ATV - Too Much In One Game?

2down
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I started mx gaming with Motocross Madness on a shitty old PC. It was absolute bliss. The tracks, the sound effects... UH!! The best.

Game play got both better and worse over time but when Alive hit, I was like, ok they finally nailed the physics. This is incredibly fun again. And then the next title (don't even know what it was) just completely took a hard left and so did I. Basically just not playing anymore.

My beef with Rainbow and company are that they seem to want to be everything to everyone. And from a biz perspective I get that but from a gaming perspective it's a complete swing and a miss.

Why not multiple titles?? "Motocross Simulator", "Supercross Simulator", "ATV Sim" etc...
And for the 10 year olds in the group "MX vs ATV - Go Completely Nuts With Every Machine and Track Known to Man".

With so much packed into one title, it's impossible to come away with a great experience in each segment.

For me, just give me a motocross game that is completely dedicated to the motocross experience from a dirt bike perspective. The races, the tracks, the sound effects, the AI, the tuning, the controls etc..

Give that same experience to the ATV and UTV guys. In their own title. Sold separately. And give the kids their golf cart canyon jumping with explosives, guns and wild, completely random AI.

(IMO) Trying to be everything to everyone was the wrong strategy to sell games. You could have sold more if you'd come out with a library of focused titles versus a jumbled together mash-up of off-roading.
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ElliotB16
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8/11/2020 10:41am
The mx national tracks are pretty realistic
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zehn
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8/11/2020 10:41am
Clearly you've never developed and sold a game that caters to a niche community
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xrmark
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8/11/2020 10:42am
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk anyone who wants to play arcade mx games. If we do we just play mad skills and even that is better than the new rainbow stuff. If they simply put out reflex again or something very very close to it, they would be selling it like no other. Having everything in one game is what they’re based on and they always killed it with this set up until they started the new stuff. The truck racing and freestyler in reflex was by far the best ever made. Hope one day rainbow studios actually reads the comments and forums and takes something into consideration. The new MX vs ATV stuff is terrible
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xrmark
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8/11/2020 10:43am
ElliotB16 wrote:
The mx national tracks are pretty realistic
Not the game play.
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zehn
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8/11/2020 10:43am
xrmark wrote:
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk...
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk anyone who wants to play arcade mx games. If we do we just play mad skills and even that is better than the new rainbow stuff. If they simply put out reflex again or something very very close to it, they would be selling it like no other. Having everything in one game is what they’re based on and they always killed it with this set up until they started the new stuff. The truck racing and freestyler in reflex was by far the best ever made. Hope one day rainbow studios actually reads the comments and forums and takes something into consideration. The new MX vs ATV stuff is terrible
You just can't help yourself can you?
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xrmark
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8/11/2020 10:45am
zehn wrote:
You just can't help yourself can you?
You mean responding to a post in a forum and offering up my thought. There’s always one guy defending the crap out of this trash game
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2down
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8/11/2020 11:08am
zehn wrote:
Clearly you've never developed and sold a game that caters to a niche community
You're correct. My long-winded point there was that a collection of titles versus one 'catch-all' would logically create a better return. If I'm wrong I accept that.

In my defense I don't have any idea how large or resourceful Rainbow is. Perhaps the proof is in the games that they release. Meaning, in order to get the best return, they're forced to lump it all together. I know that resources needed to focus on specific segments of a community is a big ask when getting a game to market with any success is pretty much a crap shoot.

However, if there wasn't a strong community supporting the titles that (have been) released these dev studios would have moved on long ago.
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AH387
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8/11/2020 11:12am
The whole series is just bad, to be honest. None of them ever were even close to realistic. Motocross Madness back in the day was pretty cool, for what it was. The MESX and MXGP games are much better (but not perfect by any means) in my opinion. It would be cool to have the Nationals but I just can't spend money on a game from MX Vs ATV series again.
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zehn
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8/11/2020 11:15am
2down wrote:
You're correct. My long-winded point there was that a collection of titles versus one 'catch-all' would logically create a better return. If I'm wrong I accept...
You're correct. My long-winded point there was that a collection of titles versus one 'catch-all' would logically create a better return. If I'm wrong I accept that.

In my defense I don't have any idea how large or resourceful Rainbow is. Perhaps the proof is in the games that they release. Meaning, in order to get the best return, they're forced to lump it all together. I know that resources needed to focus on specific segments of a community is a big ask when getting a game to market with any success is pretty much a crap shoot.

However, if there wasn't a strong community supporting the titles that (have been) released these dev studios would have moved on long ago.
I guess my point was that further segmenting an already highly segmented and niche title would be a non-starter. I know at least one of the devs that works for Rainbow posts here occasionally, maybe he can chime in.

Getting the best return by releasing one title versus 3 is 100% the reason they do it
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8/11/2020 11:33am
What I can't get past with the MX vs ATV games is the turning. The national tracks they have added look awesome and made me want to play, but whenever I watch a video of someone playing I always see the same weird ass turning. It almost looks like the bike speeds up when you're turning or something and it's totally unrealistic. The MESX games aren't perfect, but I think they are at least much more realistic. I'd love to see those guys make an outdoor game, but I'm not sure that's in the cards.
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2down
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8/11/2020 12:16pm
2down wrote:
You're correct. My long-winded point there was that a collection of titles versus one 'catch-all' would logically create a better return. If I'm wrong I accept...
You're correct. My long-winded point there was that a collection of titles versus one 'catch-all' would logically create a better return. If I'm wrong I accept that.

In my defense I don't have any idea how large or resourceful Rainbow is. Perhaps the proof is in the games that they release. Meaning, in order to get the best return, they're forced to lump it all together. I know that resources needed to focus on specific segments of a community is a big ask when getting a game to market with any success is pretty much a crap shoot.

However, if there wasn't a strong community supporting the titles that (have been) released these dev studios would have moved on long ago.
zehn wrote:
I guess my point was that further segmenting an already highly segmented and niche title would be a non-starter. I know at least one of the...
I guess my point was that further segmenting an already highly segmented and niche title would be a non-starter. I know at least one of the devs that works for Rainbow posts here occasionally, maybe he can chime in.

Getting the best return by releasing one title versus 3 is 100% the reason they do it
That makes sense @zehn. I do hope he'll see this and chime in.

I'd be curious to see if this idea would have merit:

Could the studio release a "shell game" with the ability to download your desired game play/niche? I'm completely guessing, but I would assume that the majority of overhead and risk comes in the form of producing physical units versus DLC content.

However if the majority of cost comes in the form of man-hours, there may be no hope for my idea unless a much bigger fish comes along and decides to pour money and additional people into the franchise which I would also assume is highly unlikely.

From a dev perspective I'm talking about one giant if/else statement that could ship with a default value. Basically the game as it is. But "if" the player decided to download a different game package, the default game would be essentially overwritten with the niche game package.

Lots of assumptions here but a guy can wish. Smile
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MotofactioN
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8/11/2020 4:29pm
TGO 2021 would be a great game Cool
Sleapy
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8/11/2020 5:02pm
xrmark wrote:
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk...
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk anyone who wants to play arcade mx games. If we do we just play mad skills and even that is better than the new rainbow stuff. If they simply put out reflex again or something very very close to it, they would be selling it like no other. Having everything in one game is what they’re based on and they always killed it with this set up until they started the new stuff. The truck racing and freestyler in reflex was by far the best ever made. Hope one day rainbow studios actually reads the comments and forums and takes something into consideration. The new MX vs ATV stuff is terrible
I agree that all the new games are awful but alive was amazing... it would've been much better, but THQ went out of business and we only got like half the game.
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8/11/2020 5:23pm
xrmark wrote:
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk...
Idk how people think alive was good that game was terrible. Reflex was the last good game made by rainbow. The direction they’re going is...strange. Idk anyone who wants to play arcade mx games. If we do we just play mad skills and even that is better than the new rainbow stuff. If they simply put out reflex again or something very very close to it, they would be selling it like no other. Having everything in one game is what they’re based on and they always killed it with this set up until they started the new stuff. The truck racing and freestyler in reflex was by far the best ever made. Hope one day rainbow studios actually reads the comments and forums and takes something into consideration. The new MX vs ATV stuff is terrible
Sleapy wrote:
I agree that all the new games are awful but alive was amazing... it would've been much better, but THQ went out of business and we...
I agree that all the new games are awful but alive was amazing... it would've been much better, but THQ went out of business and we only got like half the game.
Alive was favorite of recent years as well.
Mr. Afterbar
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8/11/2020 6:05pm
All console MX games have shit physics. Haven’t played them for years.
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tobz
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8/11/2020 8:35pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2020 8:36pm
All console MX games have shit physics. Haven’t played them for years.
Agreed.

They just slap on a goony looking shitty feeling rider and call it a day. Licenses and tracks aside, the physics are shit. Some have their good attributes but overall every game Since what, mx unleashed or mx vs atv unleashed? has been very very shit.
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8/11/2020 9:31pm
I just downloaded MX Unleashed on my xbox the other day. I'm having way more fun playing that than the newer games.
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Minus_2
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8/11/2020 11:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2020 11:20pm
They probably go this route to get a bigger audience, seeing that motocross is very niche compared to other sports and their associated games. That's just kind of how it goes on consoles and their platform limitations. They gotta do what they gotta do so they can keep making games. In my opinion to this day the best games are MX Simulator (with its endless supply of community content and replicas, hell people even made enduro stuff for it that's pretty good too) and MX vs ATV Reflex (But only if you have it on PC so you can get access to the hundreds of community made tracks and replicas too). If you are feeling bored, you should check those games out on the PC platform and jump into the modding community. The content is endless.

Those games don't require PC's with very high specs to run either. MX Simulator can run on a potato (unless you are doing the pro erode racing, but a lot of the people there have more dedicated hardware already), and Reflex is also pretty lightweight. So if you have a relatively new desktop/laptop from the last 2-5 years you should give them a go. I think the only other game that's as 'dedicated' as MX Simulator is MX Bikes. That game seemed to rise in popularity in the last couple of years.
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8/12/2020 7:03am
So I purchased All Out yesterday having never played it and only seeing videos which were pretty underwhelming. It was like 12.50 on the PlayStation store and another 20 for all of the 2020 outdoor tracks, but I figured fuck it, I love motocross.

The tracks are fucking awesome. They are far beyond anything I've played in any of the MXGP games or MESX games. The physics are kinda strange and I feel like you're able to turn a lot faster than you should be able to, but honestly, it's not as bad as I expected. I still prefer the feel of MESX, but this is a solid game when you have the outdoor tracks because they are great.

Also, it sucks that the actual manufacturers bikes are DLC instead of being included in the base game.
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2down
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8/12/2020 7:21am
Minus_2 wrote:
They probably go this route to get a bigger audience, seeing that motocross is very niche compared to other sports and their associated games. That's just...
They probably go this route to get a bigger audience, seeing that motocross is very niche compared to other sports and their associated games. That's just kind of how it goes on consoles and their platform limitations. They gotta do what they gotta do so they can keep making games. In my opinion to this day the best games are MX Simulator (with its endless supply of community content and replicas, hell people even made enduro stuff for it that's pretty good too) and MX vs ATV Reflex (But only if you have it on PC so you can get access to the hundreds of community made tracks and replicas too). If you are feeling bored, you should check those games out on the PC platform and jump into the modding community. The content is endless.

Those games don't require PC's with very high specs to run either. MX Simulator can run on a potato (unless you are doing the pro erode racing, but a lot of the people there have more dedicated hardware already), and Reflex is also pretty lightweight. So if you have a relatively new desktop/laptop from the last 2-5 years you should give them a go. I think the only other game that's as 'dedicated' as MX Simulator is MX Bikes. That game seemed to rise in popularity in the last couple of years.
Yep great points @Minus_2, that makes sense to me more now than before I started this thread. In fact I should probably update my view point a bit to acknowledge that due to all of the limitations in console game development, this title in my opinion is really really good.

I don't care for the gonzo AI and a few other too small to mention quirks of the game but I played it last night for nearly two hours and came away really satisfied. And as mentioned previously, I only race outdoor motocross series. It's just my thing. And the game provides that experience well.

With your feedback about the PC version and community, I think it's time I get back to PC. In the Motocross Madness days I was a big contributor to the community with track designs and I truly loved it. Console gaming feels very consumer-only and I'm not as big a fan.
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bh84
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8/12/2020 8:00am
Reflex was the best MX Vs ATV game. Period. Unfortunately there was some sort of mayhem that ended up with the code for Reflex being lost completely, they had to start over with Alive and its gone downhill from there.

WHat I really don't get is how Milestone can make a game as incredibly realistic and challenging as the MotoGP series and not be able to do the same with MXGP and MESX. They're not terrible games, but they aren't close to the perfection that is the MotoGP games.
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