PW 50 wont start!

gharmon
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2766
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Location
Valley, AL, USA
10/4/2013 11:03pm
Do any of you guys have trouble with the damn throttle being two damn short. I bought a replacement cable from PWs only website and the oil pump part fits fine. but to even get the throttle to fully close I had to remove the brass fitting on the carb end of the cable (the end that the sheath rest in.). I guess you would call it a cable adjuster. After removing the piece I was able to get enought length to allow the throttle to fully close. The cable was like $28. I noticed Motion Pro offers one at motosport for like $44. Is it just a shittty cable I bought?

Before anyone says anything, hell yes I know how to install a cable. LOL

thanks,

Gerald
10/5/2013 3:05pm
The aftermarket parts for PW's offered from various companies usually are close to OEM , and fit / work acceptably.

Not all of it ,though. The OEM cables are all I will buy. I paid a fair amount of $$ for a single wire cable by Motion Pro, the one you would use when bypassing the oil pump, and going to premixing.

With the adjusters turned all the way in, there was virtually no free play in the cable. The inner wire cable was just a couple mm too short, IMO. I made it work with some trimming of the adjusters, everything fully bottomed.

Keep a spare upper half on hand. Even the smallest crash can sometimes break the metal elbow on the cable at the throttle housing.

The stock cables are very reasonable, and they fit without any extra engineering. Cable routing on the PW is also something you have to be careful with.
10/5/2013 3:38pm
I know I probably missed it but does the fuel line and fuel valve let the gas flow freely when not hooked up to the carb? Does the needle &seat allow fuel into the float bowl?
2stroke153
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160
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8/16/2009
Location
Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/5/2013 3:58pm
Yea I've checked the fuel line. Took the petcock apart and blew out the little filter. Needle seat appears to be letting correct amount of fuel through. One more question. On the pressure leak down gauge. Can I tap the plate I'm making to seal the reed valve assembly for the schrader valve, and hook the pressure gauge up in the spark plug hole? Also with the plate I will be making i will be totally taking the whole reed valve assembly out and bolting directly to the case to seal. Is this the correct procedure or do I need to leave that in there? Thanks again

The Shop

10/5/2013 4:34pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2013 4:41pm
One way to check it is with a rubber plug (like a plug used on radiators) to get clamped into the manifold (that way you can see if it is leaking) or you could use a plate to replace the manifold, but be sure to use a gasket to insure a good seal. Now thee rubber plug works well for bigger bikes you might be able to use a smple cork since the intake is so small.
10/5/2013 5:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2013 5:42pm
You may laugh, but I was able to determine air leaks on PW and LT - JR 50 Suzuki engines using junk I had laying around.

A small bicycle pump and a bottle of soapy water. Did not even bother with plumbing in a gauge, as once the bubbles started spewing from any given area with a bit of air pumped in the engine, things were obvious as to where the leaks were.

Once the problems were addressed, another check with the hand pump and water bottle verified no leaks ,I called it good.

With such a low pressure required, I left my pump hose attached to the Schrader valve. By the time you get it disconnected, you lose your pressure.

No more than a few pumps should be necessary. 10 PSI is the max you need to put to it. Make sure you are at BDC with the piston location. This uncovers the transfers and allows the pressure to the lower end.

Don't laugh. I am a tight wad on a lot of things. I use what I have on hand if it will do what I need. Here is the set up I made in about 10 minutes.

A piece of aluminum plate (3/16- 1/4 will do), some gasket paper, a piece of heater hose, a few fittings ,and a couple of hose clamps. Leave the intake on the engine. Slip the heater hose over the intake tube opening. Slip the air adapter / fitting into the hose, and clamp everything fairly snug. Block the exhaust port with the gasket paper and plate. You may have to get a couple of short bolts, or stack some flat washers on the stock exhaust flange bolts.

When you get ready to pump some air to it, make sure you check all of your sealing at the plate, and intake hardware you have installed. It has to be air tight. Spray these areas first with the soapy water. Once you are sealed at these points, move on to the head ,base ,intake, crank seals, and the entire circumference of the case mating surfaces.

Add a few strokes of the pump as you spray if pressure seems to have been lost. If things are good and wet with the soapy water, a leak will make itself known as you add a bit of air pressure.
10/5/2013 5:55pm








These basic items have allowed me to track more than one air leak on the little bikes.
2stroke153
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160
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8/16/2009
Location
Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/5/2013 6:30pm
I ordered a schrader valve off ebay.. Does a standard bike pump hook directly to it? I had the same set up in mind as you ( already got the plate and gasket paper for the exhaust port) That would definitely save me some time using the hose as I would have to mill out a plate almost exactly the contour of the intake in order to seal correctly. Thanks for the short cut. Just wondering but why do you use such a small amount of air pressure. Wouldn't more pressure make it easier to find the leak?
10/5/2013 8:33pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2013 8:46pm
If you have a NAPA auto parts store nearby, the bigger stores have a good selection of fittings . I think I gave $1.60 for the last Schrader I bought there. Schraders are standard at the end where the air chuck attaches. The pump I have has a dual head on it, one for standard schraders, and the other side fits what is called a Presta stem, used on a lot of BMX and road bicycle tubes. A regular bike pump will work.

There is really no need to use too high of pressure. The crank seals are not going to be able to hold back big pressure numbers. No need in stressing the seals. 10 psi is safe, no more than 15 if you want to push it a bit.

If there is a pronounced leak, the air pressure will make the soapy water solution look like a bubble bath.
10/5/2013 9:31pm
If you have a NAPA auto parts store nearby, the bigger stores have a good selection of fittings . I think I gave $1.60 for the...
If you have a NAPA auto parts store nearby, the bigger stores have a good selection of fittings . I think I gave $1.60 for the last Schrader I bought there. Schraders are standard at the end where the air chuck attaches. The pump I have has a dual head on it, one for standard schraders, and the other side fits what is called a Presta stem, used on a lot of BMX and road bicycle tubes. A regular bike pump will work.

There is really no need to use too high of pressure. The crank seals are not going to be able to hold back big pressure numbers. No need in stressing the seals. 10 psi is safe, no more than 15 if you want to push it a bit.

If there is a pronounced leak, the air pressure will make the soapy water solution look like a bubble bath.
LOL It is Saturday night bath time!
2stroke153
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Location
Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/9/2013 2:31pm
Any luck , 2stroke153 ???
I got the schrader valve today and hooked everything up. I installed a low air pressure gauge through the plug hole and pumped it up to 10psi. It initially blew the spacer out on the clutch side and I thought I had found the problem but then realized there was nothing holding the spacer in to seal anymore. I pushed the spacer back in( one side is chamfered and one is not. I'm assuming the chamfered edge goes in to assist in sliding into the seal? Is this correct? ) After pushing the spacer back in I held it in place and repumped the pressure to 10 psi. It held for over ten minutes and never lost any pressure that I could see. I sprayed down everything with soap water the best I could while still holding the seal just to see, and nothing! I dont understand. I have a fresh top end with piston/bore clearance on low limit. No apparent leak on the leak down test and my compression is still 90psi. What gives????????
10/9/2013 3:17pm
Sheesh ! Did the cylinder kit you bought initially come with a head ? Do you still have the stock cylinder head if so ?

On one of my PW junkers, someone had installed a YT 60 three wheeler piston, and had rechambered the head . It made about 60 psi with a stock 50 cylinder , piston.

Was the bike pretty much stock when you bought it ? Or was it somebody's old racer ? If it is sealed up, has a fairly straight bore within tolerances, and a stock head, 115 -120 psi would be about normal.

If you have a known , unmodified , stock head from the bike , try swapping heads and see what the psi numbers are.

The beveled edge of the spacer faces in, as you have it installed.
2stroke153
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Location
Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/9/2013 5:00pm
The bike had been rode in the woods and that was it. Bone stock as far as I can tell. I will try the other head to see if that makes any difference . At this point am I good to put the bike back together or is there any other possible thing you can think of while I've got it tore down. Thanks again
mx5471
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985
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USA
10/9/2013 5:07pm
I would at least put a new seal in that side while it's apart. By the time you get this going, you will be the expert on these bikes.
2stroke153
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Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/11/2013 2:24pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 4:57am
Ok guys. Put the pw back together today. Still about 90-95 psi compression. I kicked it over 30 times and once again nothing. I took the air box and rubber boot off and kicked it over a couple times just to see if I could feel any sort of suction. I still had the compression tester hooked up to see if i got any different reading. ( just trying anything at this point) I had the throttle held wide open and the gas on and it was throwing gas out the back of the carb onto my hand. Not sure if that was normal or not? After 5 or 6 kicks I began feeling suction. I removed the tester and installed the plug and it fired up with one kick!!!!!!!!! What the crap. Thank you lord!! It was almost like I primed the system or something?

Now with that being said it starts on first kick every time and idles great in the start position, but when I switch to the run position it just runs wide open. Not sure what thats about. I remember someone saying something about being able to unhook one of the wires to bypass the switch.

Maybe I have something hooked up wrong??

I checked the throttle cable and the slide to make sure it was closing fully and it all appears to be fine.

Lil more help guys. Finally getting somewhere !!

Anyone had this issue before?
10/12/2013 7:04am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 12:25pm
Making some noise , great. The wide open running , not so great. You can bypass the start / run feature of the switch by unplugging the little plastic connector behind the front number plate, the one with the three wires. ( black / yellow, white / black , red wires). Leave the two black wires with the bullet connectors plugged in.

The switch will operate like normal, but no longer needs to be in the start setting to start it up. It basically bypasses the little ignition control module (box) near the airbox that retards the spark when the switch is in the start setting.

If it is running wide open with the carb slide fully bottomed (closed) , the switch bypass is not going to remedy this situation, I don't think.

Make sure the throttle cable is routed correctly, slide fully closing, carb attached to intake securely.

If all of the above is in check, and it does not respond to throttle input from the grip, an air leak somewhere is my guess.

One other thing to check is the little junction where the upper half of the throttle cable splits off into two cables, (one for the carb, the other for the oil pump.) Make sure the cables are seated in the little plastic holder where the ends attach, and that the cables moves freely in the little junction tube.

The idle screw is not turned in too far , is it ?
2stroke153
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Location
Shenandoah, VA, USA
10/12/2013 6:27pm
After closer evaluation the slide wasn't closing fully. It was stopping at about a quarter throttle ( guess it appeared to be wide open when it was running without any load on the stand). The cable adjusters were turned all the way in and I couldnt get enough slack. Not sure if it was the stock cable or not. I noticed the adjuster on the bottom near the carb was black and the one for the choke was brass and it was over twice as long as the choke adjuster also which ate up alot of my slack. I had to strip back some of the cable behind the adjuster in order to gain enough slack to get the slide to fully close. It appears to be fine now. I haven't had a chance to give it an official test run other than around inside my garage, because of all the rain we've had throughout the weekend. Maybe tomorrow the clouds will break. Keeping my fingers crossed!! Thanks again
gharmon
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2766
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Location
Valley, AL, USA
10/12/2013 10:46pm
Mine is doing that same spittig gas out the back of the carb with the breather removed. The only difference is mine is spitting out gas while its revving up. I was gonna ask about that myself?

Also mine is reverse of yours. Mine revs and runs okay it only will not idle. The air screw nor the idle screw make a bit of difference. YOU can screw the idle screw all they way in and it doesn't even move the slide at all. YOu can keep it running with just a little bit of gas but that's hard for a 5 year old to understand. If i run out the cable adjuster (closest to the carb) i can get it to rev up but then it revs to high but will still slowly rev down and go dead.

Can anyone help me out? LOL BTW mine has around 120 psi compression. Just an fyi

Thanks guys
10/13/2013 3:22am
gharmon, remove the carb from the bike. Give it a good cleaning, making sure all passages are clear, especially the pilot jet circuit. I verify this by using a can of aerosol brake / carb/ or contact cleaner. Place the little straw over every opening / passage in / on the carb, and give the can a blast ,making sure the fluid passes through each orifice.

Then with the slide out of the carb, look down the slide bore as you turn the idle screw in. It should protrude out into the bore enough to make contact with the slide. Install the slide, with the carb still off the bike, and check for idle screw / slide contact.

I have seen a few slides on the PW that had a divot where the idle screw made contact from wear over time. usually a bit of light filing will smooth them out.
gharmon
Posts
2766
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Valley, AL, USA
10/14/2013 10:25am
gharmon, remove the carb from the bike. Give it a good cleaning, making sure all passages are clear, especially the pilot jet circuit. I verify this...
gharmon, remove the carb from the bike. Give it a good cleaning, making sure all passages are clear, especially the pilot jet circuit. I verify this by using a can of aerosol brake / carb/ or contact cleaner. Place the little straw over every opening / passage in / on the carb, and give the can a blast ,making sure the fluid passes through each orifice.

Then with the slide out of the carb, look down the slide bore as you turn the idle screw in. It should protrude out into the bore enough to make contact with the slide. Install the slide, with the carb still off the bike, and check for idle screw / slide contact.

I have seen a few slides on the PW that had a divot where the idle screw made contact from wear over time. usually a bit of light filing will smooth them out.
Hey thanks for the info. I even bought a new carb off ebay (yeah a cheap one) after cleaning the regular carb several times. The new carb was worse. We went yesterday to ride and as long as he keeps it rev'ved up it will run but not really well. It seems to be "loading up" and then drowning out. You then go to crank it back for him and you have to hold the throttle wide open every time to get it to crank back up and then let it smooth out. He then takes off again and it runs fine as long as the throttle is held reasonably steady. So thinking it was loading up I then would let the carb fill up, then turn it off and let him ride till it went dead again. LIke I suspected it ran better like this, no still not perfect. I assume this is a float type problem but these floats appear unadjustable to me. There is no tab to bend. Anymore ideas?


Edit: I got tired of f'ing with it and went and bought a brand new CRF 50 but I still wont this bike running good. I just cannot have my 5 year old grandson riding the shittest running bike at the house!! LOL
10/15/2013 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2013 12:31pm
Float is plastic on the PW. Take it out and make sure it "floats" in a cup of water. Make sure the choke cable is not hanging up, and is fully closed. Air screw adjustment should start at about 1 1/4 turns out. They are very sensitive to air screw setting. Check to make sure the float needle is sealing when the float is fully raised.

To check, take the bowl off the carb, leave the fuel line hooked to the carb, turn the fuel valve on, as gently raise the float until it stops flowing fuel. Make sure the air filter is not over oiled.
1
Ryan_Pape
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1
Joined
4/9/2015
Location
Ashland, MO, USA
4/9/2015 9:39am
Ok I am having the same issue. I replaced whole top end including carburetor. now I know it's got to be a seal or something. I'm just not getting fuel to the spark plug. can I order just the crank seals? Or do they come in a kit with bearings? I can't seem to find just the seals?
davidnewsome
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8
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12/12/2016
Location
Kinston, NC, USA
12/12/2016 5:40pm
I just put new carb on gets gas to bowl and plug wet but want fire off till I spray gas in carb any help please
davidnewsome
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8
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12/12/2016
Location
Kinston, NC, USA
12/12/2016 5:45pm
Float is plastic on the PW. Take it out and make sure it "floats" in a cup of water. Make sure the choke cable is not...
Float is plastic on the PW. Take it out and make sure it "floats" in a cup of water. Make sure the choke cable is not hanging up, and is fully closed. Air screw adjustment should start at about 1 1/4 turns out. They are very sensitive to air screw setting. Check to make sure the float needle is sealing when the float is fully raised.

To check, take the bowl off the carb, leave the fuel line hooked to the carb, turn the fuel valve on, as gently raise the float until it stops flowing fuel. Make sure the air filter is not over oiled.
Can u give me any advice about one getting gas to carb and plug but want fire off till I spray gas in carb and
10/29/2018 10:24am
gharmon, remove the carb from the bike. Give it a good cleaning, making sure all passages are clear, especially the pilot jet circuit. I verify this...
gharmon, remove the carb from the bike. Give it a good cleaning, making sure all passages are clear, especially the pilot jet circuit. I verify this by using a can of aerosol brake / carb/ or contact cleaner. Place the little straw over every opening / passage in / on the carb, and give the can a blast ,making sure the fluid passes through each orifice.

Then with the slide out of the carb, look down the slide bore as you turn the idle screw in. It should protrude out into the bore enough to make contact with the slide. Install the slide, with the carb still off the bike, and check for idle screw / slide contact.

I have seen a few slides on the PW that had a divot where the idle screw made contact from wear over time. usually a bit of light filing will smooth them out.
Where abouts on florida do you live project racer.
10/30/2018 8:22pm
Where abouts on florida do you live project racer.
I can throw a rock and hit the Howard Franklin bridge.
10/30/2018 8:30pm
Where abouts on florida do you live project racer.
I can throw a rock and hit the Howard Franklin bridge.
Nice. Im near brooksville. Im having same issue as 2 stroke did. Got the crank seal on order hoping it fixes it. If not im lost. You work on these on the side?
10/31/2018 1:14am Edited Date/Time 10/31/2018 1:15am
Where abouts on florida do you live project racer.
I can throw a rock and hit the Howard Franklin bridge.
Nice. Im near brooksville. Im having same issue as 2 stroke did. Got the crank seal on order hoping it fixes it. If not im lost...
Nice. Im near brooksville. Im having same issue as 2 stroke did. Got the crank seal on order hoping it fixes it. If not im lost. You work on these on the side?
I can try to help you if you don't have any luck. I am off work all next week.

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