Local Racing Classes by Qualifying Times?

rbspecial138 wrote:

I agree with most of the posts above me about needing a better way to segregate the classes, I think part of it is the track...

I agree with most of the posts above me about needing a better way to segregate the classes, I think part of it is the track owners/promoters not taking more of a stand. a track I used to race at the main owner guy (who was heavily involved in the day to day operations at the track) would call guys out for racing the C class and make them move up. obviously this works on a small 'summer' race series at a smaller track, but its a place to start, and cheaper than a transponder system for a small track.

yz133rider wrote:

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted. The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and...

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted.

The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and for little Billy are out of hand and seriously killing the local scene.

If you enter C and are a pretty new\average rider who does a couple jumps and holds a respectable pace its likely you will be lapped in a 4 or 5 lap race because the top 3 C class kids run times competitive with the top A class guys.

billyp330 wrote:

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the...

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the wrong sport. And really should just give up on any sport, because obviously they are not a competitive type of person.

I dont believe for a second that racers arent showing up simply because of "sandbagging". Other then the OPs solution to sandbagging (using lap times to create classes, which is the only true way to place people in appropriate skill level based classes) every other solution is to force people up a class when they start winning or being top 3. Think about that for second...Wont that mean everyone will eventually have to move up? Not enough new racers come in every year to keep C class going. If you get a small group of new racers then maybe you could just give them their own class as needed?

Also, just want to point out that all these people on here crying about sandbaggers are no different then sandbaggers. They are upset because they cant win in the lowest available class and so therefore the people that are beating them are "sandbaggers". These "sandbaggers" are racing the lowest available class so they can win or at least have a better chance of winning. Seems to be the same exact thing to me with the exception that the "sandbaggers" actually keep showing up to race, while the people crying about sandbagging just stick to practice days and crying on vital so they can avoid getting beat.

yz133rider wrote:

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted. The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and...

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted.

The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and for little Billy are out of hand and seriously killing the local scene.

If you enter C and are a pretty new\average rider who does a couple jumps and holds a respectable pace its likely you will be lapped in a 4 or 5 lap race because the top 3 C class kids run times competitive with the top A class guys.

billyp330 wrote:

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the...

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the wrong sport. And really should just give up on any sport, because obviously they are not a competitive type of person.

I dont believe for a second that racers arent showing up simply because of "sandbagging". Other then the OPs solution to sandbagging (using lap times to create classes, which is the only true way to place people in appropriate skill level based classes) every other solution is to force people up a class when they start winning or being top 3. Think about that for second...Wont that mean everyone will eventually have to move up? Not enough new racers come in every year to keep C class going. If you get a small group of new racers then maybe you could just give them their own class as needed?

Also, just want to point out that all these people on here crying about sandbaggers are no different then sandbaggers. They are upset because they cant win in the lowest available class and so therefore the people that are beating them are "sandbaggers". These "sandbaggers" are racing the lowest available class so they can win or at least have a better chance of winning. Seems to be the same exact thing to me with the exception that the "sandbaggers" actually keep showing up to race, while the people crying about sandbagging just stick to practice days and crying on vital so they can avoid getting beat.

yz133rider wrote:

You are the exact tough guy mentality that is causing these issues.

C class national pros, bro.

yz133rider wrote:

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted. The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and...

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted.

The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and for little Billy are out of hand and seriously killing the local scene.

If you enter C and are a pretty new\average rider who does a couple jumps and holds a respectable pace its likely you will be lapped in a 4 or 5 lap race because the top 3 C class kids run times competitive with the top A class guys.

Johnny Depp wrote:

It's always nice to see you in a thread, you typically provide level headed input. Sometimes a joke has to be told just right :side: I...

It's always nice to see you in a thread, you typically provide level headed input. Sometimes a joke has to be told just right

I feel very fortunate that this thread has been civilized so far, and gotten decent input. I never take for granted the privilege to post on this open forum, and appreciate the sponsors, owners and moderators that make it possible to share ideas and more.

C class gets the most focus, but the problem is far more widespread than just that.

ACBraap wrote:

Timing could work. I would add to that proposal, the winner of the C class gets bumped to B, and B to A, to prevent sandbagging...

Timing could work. I would add to that proposal, the winner of the C class gets bumped to B, and B to A, to prevent sandbagging in practice.

Or promoters could offer fewer classes with more people in each, and then have longer motos.

Personally, for both moto (off road) and MTB, I aim for the highest class where I won't be embarrassed, and where I'll have people to actually race with. Typically that means being more concerned about not being DFL than being anywhere near winning.

yz133rider wrote:

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted. The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and...

I suggested this here and on facebook and was absolutely blasted.

The national C class pro riders and their loretta dreams of glory for themselves and for little Billy are out of hand and seriously killing the local scene.

If you enter C and are a pretty new\average rider who does a couple jumps and holds a respectable pace its likely you will be lapped in a 4 or 5 lap race because the top 3 C class kids run times competitive with the top A class guys.

billyp330 wrote:

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the...

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the wrong sport. And really should just give up on any sport, because obviously they are not a competitive type of person.

I dont believe for a second that racers arent showing up simply because of "sandbagging". Other then the OPs solution to sandbagging (using lap times to create classes, which is the only true way to place people in appropriate skill level based classes) every other solution is to force people up a class when they start winning or being top 3. Think about that for second...Wont that mean everyone will eventually have to move up? Not enough new racers come in every year to keep C class going. If you get a small group of new racers then maybe you could just give them their own class as needed?

Also, just want to point out that all these people on here crying about sandbaggers are no different then sandbaggers. They are upset because they cant win in the lowest available class and so therefore the people that are beating them are "sandbaggers". These "sandbaggers" are racing the lowest available class so they can win or at least have a better chance of winning. Seems to be the same exact thing to me with the exception that the "sandbaggers" actually keep showing up to race, while the people crying about sandbagging just stick to practice days and crying on vital so they can avoid getting beat.

Solidkm wrote:

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX...

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX standards as much. I feel you on starting at the bottom, being competitive, getting better, faster, fitter each race.

I personally would rather run mid pack B, in theory. Then win C. I look at C as the trenches. And i wanted to earn my way out of it. That trophy that reads 1st place, 250 C doesn’t mean anything to me. Thats just me. I seem to be the anomaly. I pushed myself to B, Due to career moves, Military time etc, I’ve never been able to attend enough races to accumulate enough points per season to actually point out. But the right thing for me to do is enter B. Whereas as points wise, I could milk the system, and keep entering C. I could prob manage my work leave, run the entire season, and Win C class. And since I’ve never done that, on paper I’m “new” to Racing. So even though I haven’t a championship to my name, I’ve raced quite a bit here and there through the years. I’m not a beginner. And to enter C class would be sandbagging. I check myself. Other dudes don’t share that self pride, the c class trophy means more to them, than the pride of earning their way out of C class. And scoring in a faster class/challenge. And since they only participate in a select number of races, they never point out of C and no one stops them for kicking ass in C for six years. This is abuse of the system. When you’re throwing whips and the C class winner is besting the B class winners lap times and cumulative, that’s a problem and needs to have his ass beat. i get it tho, it’s amateur racing, and there is going to be abuse at all levels.

Racer111 wrote:

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class. There is one problem. You will have...

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class.

There is one problem. You will have people sand bag their practice or qualifying time to get in the class they want and then tear it up once it’s race time. It’s almost impossible to stop sandbagging.

The actual promoters are the ones that can be the best deterrent. They see a guy in the race that is sandbagging, no points for you in the 1st Moto and you’re bumped up to the next class for Moto 2. If they all started doing that, it would help. There is a promoter here in NC that does that. He doesn’t play around with sandbagging.

billyp330 wrote:

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the...

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the wrong sport. And really should just give up on any sport, because obviously they are not a competitive type of person.

I dont believe for a second that racers arent showing up simply because of "sandbagging". Other then the OPs solution to sandbagging (using lap times to create classes, which is the only true way to place people in appropriate skill level based classes) every other solution is to force people up a class when they start winning or being top 3. Think about that for second...Wont that mean everyone will eventually have to move up? Not enough new racers come in every year to keep C class going. If you get a small group of new racers then maybe you could just give them their own class as needed?

Also, just want to point out that all these people on here crying about sandbaggers are no different then sandbaggers. They are upset because they cant win in the lowest available class and so therefore the people that are beating them are "sandbaggers". These "sandbaggers" are racing the lowest available class so they can win or at least have a better chance of winning. Seems to be the same exact thing to me with the exception that the "sandbaggers" actually keep showing up to race, while the people crying about sandbagging just stick to practice days and crying on vital so they can avoid getting beat.

Solidkm wrote:

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX...

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX standards as much. I feel you on starting at the bottom, being competitive, getting better, faster, fitter each race.

I personally would rather run mid pack B, in theory. Then win C. I look at C as the trenches. And i wanted to earn my way out of it. That trophy that reads 1st place, 250 C doesn’t mean anything to me. Thats just me. I seem to be the anomaly. I pushed myself to B, Due to career moves, Military time etc, I’ve never been able to attend enough races to accumulate enough points per season to actually point out. But the right thing for me to do is enter B. Whereas as points wise, I could milk the system, and keep entering C. I could prob manage my work leave, run the entire season, and Win C class. And since I’ve never done that, on paper I’m “new” to Racing. So even though I haven’t a championship to my name, I’ve raced quite a bit here and there through the years. I’m not a beginner. And to enter C class would be sandbagging. I check myself. Other dudes don’t share that self pride, the c class trophy means more to them, than the pride of earning their way out of C class. And scoring in a faster class/challenge. And since they only participate in a select number of races, they never point out of C and no one stops them for kicking ass in C for six years. This is abuse of the system. When you’re throwing whips and the C class winner is besting the B class winners lap times and cumulative, that’s a problem and needs to have his ass beat. i get it tho, it’s amateur racing, and there is going to be abuse at all levels.

Johnny Depp wrote:

The idea of this concept is to take the "which class?" decision out of the rider's hands, and put it in the Organizer's. No Class Racing...

The idea of this concept is to take the "which class?" decision out of the rider's hands, and put it in the Organizer's.
No Class Racing would not be a forever "class" and that is outside our normal thought process (a paradigm shift) so it's a bit confusing. 4 "Ride Groups" cut up different each time depending on the number of entries and other decisions.

billyp330 wrote:

I like the idea of basing classes off of qualifying times, but agree that it isnt really plausible due to the cost of transponders. One thing...

I like the idea of basing classes off of qualifying times, but agree that it isnt really plausible due to the cost of transponders.

One thing i thought of as a solution to reduce time required at the track is to split a few classes into different time slots and run timed motos +1 lap to help keep the motos consistent. Wouldnt help with sandbagging at all obviously, but the biggest compliant i hear about local moto races are how long you have to sit around for only a handful of laps. Also cutting down number of classes. I know everyone will shut this idea down as soon as they see this and cry "track promoters will not do this because it will kill their entry numbers" and to that i say look at HS and GNCC formats. Yes there are a few different classes but they all run together and people are showing up in big numbers for these.This is how i'd imagine it:

8:00 Little bike sign up sign up
9:00 50cc practice 10 mins
9:10 65cc practice 10 mins
9:20 85cc practice 10 mins
9:30 track prep
10:00 50cc moto 1
10:15 65cc moto 1
10:30 85cc moto 1
10:45 track prep
11:15 50cc moto 2
11:30 65cc moto 2
11:45 85cc Moto 2

12:00 Big bike A,B,C sign up
1:00 A practice 10mins
1:10 B practice 10 mins
1:20 C practice 10 mins
1:30 Track Prep
2:00 A Moto 1
2:15 B moto 1
2:30 C moto 1
2:45 Track Prep
3:15 A moto 2
3:30 B moto 2
3:45 C moto 2

4:00 Schoolboy, Collegeboy, Vet Signup
5:00 Schoolboy practice 10 mins
5:10 Collegeboy practice 10 mins
5:20 Vet practice 10mins
5:30 track prep
6:00 Schoolboy moto 1
6:15 Collegeboy moto 1
6:30 Vet moto 1
6:45 track prep
7:15 Schoolboy moto 2
7:30 Collegeboy moto 2
7:45 Vet moto 2

All motos are 8 min + 1 Lap

Could mix up the groups and time slots of course but this is just an example. This would mean only a 4 hr day for racers unless they want to race more then 1 class or have kids that race as well (those people have to be there all day no matter how a promoter formats the day)

Could also split races so that two different classes are actually racing at same time (a lot of tracks do this anyway to save time and so that 3 guys arent out there all by themselves)

Example A moto 1 consist of 250A and 450A, scored separately.

If someone wants to race both 450A and 250A on same bike (would have to be the smaller bike so in this case a 250) they could and just be scored twice with respect to both classes.

thoughts?

Johnny Depp wrote:

Wow, you spent some time on that. I have done the same many times in many different ways and keep coming back to the KISS theory...

Wow, you spent some time on that. I have done the same many times in many different ways and keep coming back to the KISS theory. Keep It Simple Stupid. Absolutely no offense to your input, just my guiding statement on this project.

My vision entails 4 groups. Call them, 1,2,3,4. Call them Fast, Good, Competent and Slow Poke if you want.
Whether 50 or 250 show up, the program is the same, just the size of the groups change. Each group gets 1 hour track time, and at least 2 motos (possibly 3) and practice/ qualifying of 15 minutes. That is 5 hours. Another hour for whatever. 6 hours in and out. Stay and ride more if you want you could do another race, perhaps throw in Endurocross shortcuts, or a Scramble or Grass track loop for later in the day.

10-11:00 - Groups 1,2,3,4 all 15 minutes practice/qualifying
11:15 - Final Ride Groups posted
11:30 - Group 4 Moto 1 30 minutes
12:00 - Group 3 Moto 1 30 minutes
12:30 - Group 2 Moto 1 30 minutes
1:00 - Group 1 Moto 1 30 minutes
1:30 - Intermission track prep 30 minutes
2:00 - Group 4 Moto 2 30 minutes
2:30 - Group 3 Moto 2 30 minutes
3:00 - Group 2 Moto 2 30 minutes
3:30 - Group 4 Moto 2 30 minutes
4:00 - Go home if you want, Have a beer, or race some more in the Final event?

4:30 - ScrambleCross (random formats) All ride Groups 1 Hour.

You may note, there is no special treatment for anyone, including (heaven forbid) mini bikes. If you can do the lap time, you are in the class. If you feel the Moto's are too long, slow down.

yz133rider wrote:

You are the exact tough guy mentality that is causing these issues.

C class national pros, bro.

OldPro277 wrote:

Exactly !! BillyP obviously hasn't been to a local race lately (or possibly IS one of those C-class Pros) . In our District, we have several...

Exactly !! BillyP obviously hasn't been to a local race lately (or possibly IS one of those C-class Pros) . In our District, we have several C class guys that run within 2- 3 seconds/lap of the A guys, and our A guys are no slouches,several have qualified for outdoor Nationals. The sandbagging is out of control. 2 of the aforementioned C guys actually petitioned the AMA with some bullshit reason to return them to C after being bumped to B a year or so ago and were successful in doing it !!
Is it the glory of making it to Lorettas ? Should manufacturers contingency only pay out in B and A classes ,or make it a more exaggerated graduated scale? I don't know what the answer is but it definitely does keep aspiring new racers away,regardless of what the naysayers think.
Another factoid-- I have no dog in this fight,as Im a +55 guy, which is basically a Vet x 2 ,lol.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Loretta Lynn's is absolutely influencing the local racing scene nationwide, for good and bad. And a 55+ guy ought to feel welcome and comfortable at his...

Loretta Lynn's is absolutely influencing the local racing scene nationwide, for good and bad. And a 55+ guy ought to feel welcome and comfortable at his local track. We've got a long way to go.

philG wrote:

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not...

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not fast enough to be in 250A .

We have run transponders here in the UK for ages, before that you would have a qualifying race, 160 riders in 4 40 rider heats, top 10 in each heat to A final, next 10 to B etc... A paid money and Pro points. The rest were just trophies for top 3 , in a 40 rider race.

If you have 5 riders in a class, its not a class . Fill the gate with riders of similar speed, and drop it as many times as you can , when its full.

OldPro277 wrote:

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is...

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is an example. This past Sunday I raced a local Hare Scrambles , first woods race for me since 1974 (Im a moto guy ,HATE woods racing, but it kinda was fun....)and had zero idea about the format. They used the RFID electronic scoring and ran 7 different classes in my race. Sent them off in 7 separate waves, 30 secs apart. Approx 90 guys. It worked great because the track was 6+ miles long. If you tried that with moto and a typical 2 mile track, you'd obviously have chaos in short order. But I agree that something needs to be done, the local moto scene in western Pa has been dropping attendance massively for the past 10 years , while our local woods racing (AWRCS) has grown exponentially ,typically getting 400+ entries per race.
This particular Hare scrambles had a morning race 1 hour + 1 lap, and an afternoon race of the same length, so guys could conceivably run 2 classes and get about 2 and a half hours of race time and still get home hours earlier than a typical local moto race.