Thad Duvall Stripped of win at John Penton GNCC (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)

7/12/2017 9:39am
If you watch the video and still maintain the opinion that this was an illegal line, you have obviously not raced an offroad race. If you...
If you watch the video and still maintain the opinion that this was an illegal line, you have obviously not raced an offroad race. If you have raced a Gncc it must not have been the 3 hour race with the Pros... by the end of the weekend every section you come into is criss crossed by other lines and the main lines have long gone away. The name of the game is to take every line you can to get on some fresh dirt and as long as you are not busting through track markers or veering off out of sight of the main trail, no one is ever consciously thinking "Am I within 25ft of the main line". Don't throw off on the kid as he was just out there doing what 100 more people were doing, pointing new lines. This has never been an issue and is never talked about other than when someone is obviously cheating (as in cutting a mile or two off at a time). Let me take that back... yea it was an issue that one time with Paul Whilbley, very similar scenario... Kailub was getting beat. You guys say what you want but I was done speculating after Steele Creek a few years ago when they cut the race short because the hills were getting "impassible" well guess what, Whibley was at the top of the hill and Kailub wasn't, so they referred back to the previous lap where Kailub was leading and called it a race. When you pull in a property and mighty KTM has the choice pit area with the only dry ground every single round, you know who is in control. There is a reason so many people have pulled against Russell in recent years.
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class. http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&r=3 And KTM...
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class.

http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&…

And KTM only has "choice" pit area because they put the defending champions pit in the number 1 spot and theres plenty of times theyve been parked in a swamp too

This conspiracy crap is ridiculous!
agn5009 wrote:
No, it's not. Sure, some of it may be nitpicking or a bit of an overreaction but a lot of these instances have merit to them...
No, it's not. Sure, some of it may be nitpicking or a bit of an overreaction but a lot of these instances have merit to them. Such as this weekend. That "shortcut" was very similar to ones that are used each and every race. There was a fan clearly pointing riders in that direction. I cant wait til someone present comes out and says they seen KR or multiple others using it
I get that this stuff happens at every race but my point is when do you draw the line? That section was meant for everyone to go down the creek and those guys cut it. I would go that way too but they were caught more then 25ft off. So what do you do? So you just let it go? Then why have rules?

They broke a rule and I see how it seems like KR would benefit from it but if it woulda been Russell then we wouldn't have this drama
agn5009
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7/12/2017 10:25am Edited Date/Time 7/12/2017 10:29am
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class. http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&r=3 And KTM...
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class.

http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&…

And KTM only has "choice" pit area because they put the defending champions pit in the number 1 spot and theres plenty of times theyve been parked in a swamp too

This conspiracy crap is ridiculous!
agn5009 wrote:
No, it's not. Sure, some of it may be nitpicking or a bit of an overreaction but a lot of these instances have merit to them...
No, it's not. Sure, some of it may be nitpicking or a bit of an overreaction but a lot of these instances have merit to them. Such as this weekend. That "shortcut" was very similar to ones that are used each and every race. There was a fan clearly pointing riders in that direction. I cant wait til someone present comes out and says they seen KR or multiple others using it
I get that this stuff happens at every race but my point is when do you draw the line? That section was meant for everyone to...
I get that this stuff happens at every race but my point is when do you draw the line? That section was meant for everyone to go down the creek and those guys cut it. I would go that way too but they were caught more then 25ft off. So what do you do? So you just let it go? Then why have rules?

They broke a rule and I see how it seems like KR would benefit from it but if it woulda been Russell then we wouldn't have this drama
You're right, if it had been KR we wouldn't have this drama. We wouldn't have it because there never would have been a penalty. As someone stated above, there are numerous reasons to take that line. Great line selection is huge in off-road racing. Now on top of that you have a guy pointing you to take a certain line before a turn. He very well could have thought there was some sort of issue such as a seriously injured rider, numerous riders stuck, etc. If there hadn't been someone pointing him to take that certain line then I would at least be able to entertain the penalty (probably still wouldn't justify the penalty but at least be more understanding.) The fact is, this happens in every single race by every single rider. They picked Thad because who he is, or better yet who he isn't.

And you draw the line at common sense.

Oh, and in going to add this. I always find it funny when someone creates an account here and submits their first post on a subject such as this. That, to me, shows that you obviously have a dog in the fight.
7/12/2017 10:47am
agn5009 wrote:
You're right, if it had been KR we wouldn't have this drama. We wouldn't have it because there never would have been a penalty. As someone...
You're right, if it had been KR we wouldn't have this drama. We wouldn't have it because there never would have been a penalty. As someone stated above, there are numerous reasons to take that line. Great line selection is huge in off-road racing. Now on top of that you have a guy pointing you to take a certain line before a turn. He very well could have thought there was some sort of issue such as a seriously injured rider, numerous riders stuck, etc. If there hadn't been someone pointing him to take that certain line then I would at least be able to entertain the penalty (probably still wouldn't justify the penalty but at least be more understanding.) The fact is, this happens in every single race by every single rider. They picked Thad because who he is, or better yet who he isn't.

And you draw the line at common sense.

Oh, and in going to add this. I always find it funny when someone creates an account here and submits their first post on a subject such as this. That, to me, shows that you obviously have a dog in the fight.
Your obviously wrong. I have no dog in the fight. I dont look at Vital much because its littered with MX stuff that I dont really care about. I decided to sign up and post because Im just a fan of offroad racing who thought the offroad crowd was better than being so negative. Guess its the modern mentality though- "my guy didnt win and I dont agree with the call so its obviously bullshit"

Its all opinions, and you guys are all entitled to your opinion. its just discouraging to see people use their opinions to tear down another person or organization because they dont agree with a call.

Like i said I see how it can look like theres favortism shown but rules are rules. Thats my opinion and your welcome to yours as well, Im just trying to tell you guys that what your saying is essentially "well you should be allowed to break the rule a little bit".. Thad and Chris were the only two caught going that way, so how do you not dock them? Maybe the punishment didnt fit the crime, but you gotta see how it was a rule violation regardless of what happened.


jasonward73
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7/12/2017 10:59am
It's called mitigating circumstances.... If it was an open field and he just cut the corner for the sake of cutting the corner than penalties would be expected.... But in this situation... total slop fest, spectator guiding him, he probably had limited vision, not really saving a TON of time, and it being just a 4' out of bounds....

Come on bro!

The Shop

mndirtrider
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7/12/2017 12:00pm
I still have the same question I asked earlier. Are we to believe that these are the only 2 racers that took this line? Or are these the only 2 they bothered to send video in on? If that line was out of bounds I would expect to see at least 50 other people docked a position that too the line in the A and B classes. For me it's penalize ALL or none, not just the 2 pros if it was illegal. I wasn't there so maybe no one else took that line except those 2, but I find that hard to believe...
montesagold
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7/12/2017 12:33pm
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class. http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&r=3 And KTM...
Come on man, that was 2010 and Kailub wasnt even in XC1 then and the only thing he won was the XC2 class.

http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2010/class.asp?e=19&c=65&s=5&…

And KTM only has "choice" pit area because they put the defending champions pit in the number 1 spot and theres plenty of times theyve been parked in a swamp too

This conspiracy crap is ridiculous!
Sorry, 2010 was typo, it was 2012... if you don't believe that the decisions always fall in the favor the KTM team, well you've not spent anytime behind the scenes in the off-road world. As far as the reserved parking... I was at all the events in 2013 (Yamaha defending champions) and KTM were given a corner spot almost twice while everyone else was crammed in the mud. They're are so many examples even within the team's hierarchy of riders. If you were a true fanboy you would have plenty of your own stories...
7/12/2017 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 7/12/2017 12:58pm
Sorry, 2010 was typo, it was 2012... if you don't believe that the decisions always fall in the favor the KTM team, well you've not spent...
Sorry, 2010 was typo, it was 2012... if you don't believe that the decisions always fall in the favor the KTM team, well you've not spent anytime behind the scenes in the off-road world. As far as the reserved parking... I was at all the events in 2013 (Yamaha defending champions) and KTM were given a corner spot almost twice while everyone else was crammed in the mud. They're are so many examples even within the team's hierarchy of riders. If you were a true fanboy you would have plenty of your own stories...
The year everyone was stuck on the hill WAS 2010.

Heres the Cycle News story so you know Im not completely crazy: http://www.cyclenews.com/2010/03/article/strang-claims-steele-creek-gnc…

No offense to anyone but Im done wasting my time debating this stuff with everyone. Our opinions all differ and I respect that you're allowed to believe what you want to believe.

Who cares anyway?! None of this has any direct impact on any of us. We just need to forget about it and go ride our dirtbikes!
DC
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7/12/2017 1:22pm Edited Date/Time 7/12/2017 1:24pm
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
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RPM93
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7/12/2017 1:48pm
AMEN!! As always appreciate you DC!
TXDirt
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7/12/2017 2:01pm
Just got a chance to watch the video and it was obvious and blantant he was cutting the track. How is that some kind of "A" line or a skilled craft exactly? He was cutting the track and it was obvious. I've got no dog in the hunt. I'm not a GNCC guy. Originally my initial reaction was to believe that he might have been unfairly penalized. But after now watching the video he was cutting the track. Penalty is justified.
doofy
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7/12/2017 2:15pm
doofy wrote:
The whole story about him purposely ramming scott russell into a tree, and bragging about coming to races hungover, and then calling rodney smith a prick...
The whole story about him purposely ramming scott russell into a tree, and bragging about coming to races hungover, and then calling rodney smith a prick was just a bit too much for me. I havent met shane but as just another nobody Rodney Smith will take time out of his day and talk to you as if you guys were lifelong pals. I dont see how a guy who purposely ran someone into a freakin tree just to prove a point can call a guy like that a douchebag.
Was this when he was teammates with Scott Russell on Muzzy Kawasakis and he ran him out of a corner and into the woods at Road...
Was this when he was teammates with Scott Russell on Muzzy Kawasakis and he ran him out of a corner and into the woods at Road Atlanta or when Russell was on the Harley at Daytona? Ballsy move for sure, just shows that what you have heard is just as you said, a "story". If you know anything about Watts or that era of offroad racing you would know that all of the negative hype around Shane was mostly just that... hype. He knew how to stir the pot and go against the establishment and all of these stories went along in keeping him relevant. He was a badass, he changed the game...
This "story" is explained in detail by Watts himself, explaining that he did it because he wanted to show his buddy that he wasnt afraid of Russell.

Try again
montesagold
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7/12/2017 3:02pm
doofy wrote:
The whole story about him purposely ramming scott russell into a tree, and bragging about coming to races hungover, and then calling rodney smith a prick...
The whole story about him purposely ramming scott russell into a tree, and bragging about coming to races hungover, and then calling rodney smith a prick was just a bit too much for me. I havent met shane but as just another nobody Rodney Smith will take time out of his day and talk to you as if you guys were lifelong pals. I dont see how a guy who purposely ran someone into a freakin tree just to prove a point can call a guy like that a douchebag.
Was this when he was teammates with Scott Russell on Muzzy Kawasakis and he ran him out of a corner and into the woods at Road...
Was this when he was teammates with Scott Russell on Muzzy Kawasakis and he ran him out of a corner and into the woods at Road Atlanta or when Russell was on the Harley at Daytona? Ballsy move for sure, just shows that what you have heard is just as you said, a "story". If you know anything about Watts or that era of offroad racing you would know that all of the negative hype around Shane was mostly just that... hype. He knew how to stir the pot and go against the establishment and all of these stories went along in keeping him relevant. He was a badass, he changed the game...
doofy wrote:
This "story" is explained in detail by Watts himself, explaining that he did it because he wanted to show his buddy that he wasnt afraid of...
This "story" is explained in detail by Watts himself, explaining that he did it because he wanted to show his buddy that he wasnt afraid of Russell.

Try again
Try again as in Scott Russell the road racer, my reply was scarcastic, I'm sure you were talking about Scott Summers...
7/12/2017 3:20pm
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
Thanks for answering my question DC. You said the section in question has double arrows. With that, it doesn't even matter if there was a rope or a ribbon up, or how far anyone was from the course. The rules are quite specific regarding double arrows, and there was no bottleneck.
byke
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7/12/2017 3:23pm
That's something that used to bother me racing local cross country stuff, people cheat like that all the time and act like it's a skill developed by fast guys. Not sure why DC acts like this is anything that stands out, this stuff happens a hundred times at every CC race around the planet, more so in the faster classes. Part of why they say you should never meet your heros, if anyone has a hero in GNCC, rest assured they've cheated ten thousand times in their career.
7/12/2017 3:31pm
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
This is why DC is one of my favorite guys in anything moto related. He's the man!!
HardTaco
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7/12/2017 3:50pm
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
At best it was a 5 second "advantage", like you said....the whole thing was filmed. Why not dock him the time he gained ?
Honda Man 66
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7/12/2017 4:09pm
I don't care what DC says. That was a legit line, not a cheater line. Anyone who has ever ridden an enduro, hare scramble, or GNCC has seen much worse. It did not effect the outcome of the race. Yes, some sort of penalty might be appropritae IF there was a protest. but a more appropriate penalty would have been a thirty second penalty and then see where the chips fall. I liost a little respect for DC and the GNCC series after reading all this.

Lucifa.
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7/12/2017 4:13pm
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
HardTaco wrote:
At best it was a 5 second "advantage", like you said....the whole thing was filmed. Why not dock him the time he gained ?
Because if you start docking cheaters only the time that they stole, then more people will start taking chances to cheat more often. Thats not a deterrent.
Lucifa.
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Christchurch, NZ
7/12/2017 4:15pm
I don't care what DC says. That was a legit line, not a cheater line. Anyone who has ever ridden an enduro, hare scramble, or GNCC...
I don't care what DC says. That was a legit line, not a cheater line. Anyone who has ever ridden an enduro, hare scramble, or GNCC has seen much worse. It did not effect the outcome of the race. Yes, some sort of penalty might be appropritae IF there was a protest. but a more appropriate penalty would have been a thirty second penalty and then see where the chips fall. I liost a little respect for DC and the GNCC series after reading all this.

What part of "it was double-arrowed" don't you understand? Do you understand what Double arrowed means?
HardTaco
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Location
USA
7/12/2017 4:24pm
I don't care what DC says. That was a legit line, not a cheater line. Anyone who has ever ridden an enduro, hare scramble, or GNCC...
I don't care what DC says. That was a legit line, not a cheater line. Anyone who has ever ridden an enduro, hare scramble, or GNCC has seen much worse. It did not effect the outcome of the race. Yes, some sort of penalty might be appropritae IF there was a protest. but a more appropriate penalty would have been a thirty second penalty and then see where the chips fall. I liost a little respect for DC and the GNCC series after reading all this.

Lucifa. wrote:
What part of "it was double-arrowed" don't you understand? Do you understand what Double arrowed means?
Lucifa do you race woods? You ever been in a points battle and had someone point you a line and then all of a sudden see a new section opened up that had been closed on prior laps ? I can't begin to tell you the number of races I've been in where bannered off sections get opened up midway through....especially in horribly muddy conditions
montesagold
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East, TN, USA
7/12/2017 4:25pm Edited Date/Time 7/13/2017 11:53am
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
I did not intend to make negative statements regarding anyone personally nor am I on an "anti Kailub crusade". I simply said that he had a poor attitude. I believe he has caused himself way more grief by dabbling in these matters on social media, hence pissy attitude. How are you gonna lecture me about "all he has done" and his family history? I feel somewhat embarrassed to be debating on these matters on an open forum but hey, at least I am not a factory racer or an authority figure, that would be unprofessional.
The individuals who came up short in this situation have taken the high road and handled them selves very well. With that said they are not able to express their emotions and opinions to the public and when it comes down to it what is wrong with someone speaking on what everyone is talking about and has talked about for years? I dont get into debates on facebook/instagram, its not the place for it. With the attention of common fans and kids on there, no need of airing out personal opinions. But on here, we are a group of like minded people on a forum discussing things of this nature. Have you took the time to call out each and every person on a social media post who crosses you or yours? I'm sure you have not.
I have been around Gncc racing since I was a teenager in 96' when your dad was running the show. I keep coming back for the terrain, the comradery, the pure form of motorcycle racing... not the bureaucracy. Hey I know someone has got to be the boss and someone has to be the bad guy but as I pointed out the biases are obvious. I apologize for speaking specifically about your organization or a certain rider, if you noticed in previous posts I spoke very general about "offroad". I may have a few of my details mixed up as in what riders were affected or what the particulars of a situation were in years past but I'm not making this stuff up. The only reason I get involved on here is to speak against the ones that have never raced one of these events and know very little of the series.
There are contradictions between your response to me and official press releases I've seen from GNCC. There has been statements that there was not an official protest from a team, now you say KTM protested. The first release said he violated the 25ft rule then the second went on about the designated tv area which you just now mention was double arrowed. Davey you know as well as any of us here that its commonplace at a GNCC for everyone on the track to be looking for a fresh line and there are plenty of sections that develop to be way wider than 25ft/50ft. We all know of the 25ft rule but how often has this been enforced historically? If a rule is to be emphasized, is this the way to go about it, with a very trivial example within a championship battle? Is Walker Fowler lying that they all took that same line on Saturday with no repercussion? Was other amateurs penalized over this line choice? There are so many contradictions over the years, how about the debacle at Iron Man 2009 when the track fell apart, multiple national championships on the line and half the riders unintentionally cut out half of the lap? Throw out the lap? No ...Throw out the round? No... A couple years later the first few riders make it up a hill, the next few riders dont make it.... throw the out the lap which cost Whibley the win.
I know there are many factors that have to be considered but when people see sporatic calls, you cant be surprised that all kinds of conspiracy theorys arise. Call an individual out on a forum and you show why I said previously that no one crosses your organization.

Bearuno
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7/12/2017 7:36pm Edited Date/Time 7/13/2017 10:05pm
The 'Kid' in the video looks rather self satisfied.

Well, he basically got Thad DQ'd. I think I saw him, or someone claiming to be him, apologising to Thad in a posting pasted here, or elsewhere. Maybe next time he might not be such a twat.

I'm quite enthusiastic about Thad, after seeing him so many times at the German ISDE - it seemed that I timed every section / test he went through the 2 days I was course hopping on a motorcycle. He was incredibly spectacular, and a very nice bloke.

When a spectator decides to 'direct' a rider or two, when there is absolutely no reason to do so - there was Nothing difficult about the section he directed Thad and another ( in the video) away from - well, they are Not doing the riders any service. He managed to take points from a rider he appears to be a fan of. Stupidity.

Bummer for Thad, and the other fellow.
7/13/2017 8:20am
HardTaco wrote:
Lucifa do you race woods? You ever been in a points battle and had someone point you a line and then all of a sudden see...
Lucifa do you race woods? You ever been in a points battle and had someone point you a line and then all of a sudden see a new section opened up that had been closed on prior laps ? I can't begin to tell you the number of races I've been in where bannered off sections get opened up midway through....especially in horribly muddy conditions
Double arrows....at that point banners don't matter. And I do race in the woods.
hard2kill
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7/13/2017 8:51am
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
Gezz all this drama on top of a race that was already rescheduled under suspicious circumstances, and right on top of another major series event from which many of these riders earn income as well. Then the face of the organization spills out his emotionally charged viewpoints on a public forum. The professionalism seems lacking. I would not be surprised to see many more riders and industry sponsors continue to move away from Racer Production events in the future.
VRR7
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ZA
7/13/2017 9:41am
Great Line

KTM wheelbase is 5 foot - So 40 Foot is the total length max rider can get away from course here is 20 Foot ! Within rules.


Give Rider the benefit of doubt - Line choice is part of GNCC




agn5009
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7/13/2017 9:50am
DC wrote:
montesagold wrote: Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in...
montesagold wrote:

Not relevant, everyone knows he has talent. Everyone also knows he has a shitty attitude and no one crosses the Coombs at least in the offroad realm. I've been around GNCC for 20+ years and I've seen 99% of these type of situations fall to a certain group's benefit...

Please put away your deep animosity for my family, Kailub Russell and GNCC Racing in general and look at the video. This was the fourth time around, and everyone clearly knew that the track was designed to run the pattern of the stream. It was designed that way for TV. There was a rope up blocking the cut for the first three laps but then it was gone. The kid in the red and white hat points Kailub to the shortcut but he doesn't take it because he knows it's off the track and it was double-arrowed. Sipes and Baylor don't get the line pointed to them by the kid and they stay on the track too. Unfortunately for Thad Duvall, he does take the shortcut, and it's obviously a time-saver and not on the existing track. Same goes for Chris Bach. And then the kid smiles and waves at the camera.

The GNCC staff did not make the decision to penalize Duvall and Bach, the AMA did. The GNCC staff recused itself because of the fact that it involved the Pro class, and Kailub Russell is the multi-time champion. The AMA decided to dock them one spot each, and it did not affect Russell's finish at all, but it did affect the two guys who took the shortcut (and Walker Fowler is wrong, this wasn't where he cut on the last lap on the ATV race, but that's a different story). Maybe that's why the kid contacted Thad and apologized.

When you take a blatant shortcut, whether a fan points it out to you or not, and it's caught on camera or witnessed by an official, you have to expect some kind of penalty. Duvall and Bach (both of whom I follow and respect a lot) seem to understand this and did not appeal the AMA's ruling...

So why are you? Why are you on this anti-Kailub crusade where you're trying to diminish all that he's done for the simple fact that you don't like the series (after 20+ years apparently) and you don't like his family? He works hard, he's got great talent and it's not his fault he was born to a racer named Jeff Russell, who was also a top off-roader who ended up working with the GNCC series (just like Barry Hawk did after he was done). Kailub Russell didn't even take the shortcut that was also pointed out to him, but you are laying all of this on him? His team was standing right where Duvall jumped back on track -- they weren't over there showing him shortcuts.

So what should the AMA have done? Just let it go, despite the protests of KTM, despite the evidence, despite the advantage and despite the fact that the penalized riders aren't even appealing? Where's your sense of fair play -- or are you still mad because the #1 team gets the first pick in the paddock, as had been the case ever since all too many semis started showing up for Pro row and making it too crowded? Why come on here and character-assassinate and troll on a rider for doing the right thing? You may think he has "a shitty attitude" but give the guy a break -- he's a professional athlete doing the best he can, despite haters like you out there, and he's got a hell of challenge now from Thad Duvall. He doesn't need anyone's help, and he doesn't deserve this much hate.

DC
Racer X
hard2kill wrote:
Gezz all this drama on top of a race that was already rescheduled under suspicious circumstances, and right on top of another major series event from...
Gezz all this drama on top of a race that was already rescheduled under suspicious circumstances, and right on top of another major series event from which many of these riders earn income as well. Then the face of the organization spills out his emotionally charged viewpoints on a public forum. The professionalism seems lacking. I would not be surprised to see many more riders and industry sponsors continue to move away from Racer Production events in the future.
I won't talk crap on DC because I respect him so much and I think he's such a huge positive for our sport. I also love how he seems to be such a huge fan of dirt bikes, much like everyone here.

With that being said, yes it is all very suspicious. I don't like the call as much as anyone else. I like Kaliub and no one can deny he is one of the best off road riders in the history of the GNCC's. I certainly don't blame this situation on Kaliub in any way. It's just odd when you take everything into consideration.
jasonward73
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7/13/2017 11:38am
I was not aware there were double arrows. That changes things. You have to stay between double arrows. If it wasn't double arrows then I would stand behind my previous comments.
Roostermx58
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Wilmington, NC, USA
7/13/2017 12:15pm
Here is a video of the exact section from Brady Stefancik

You will see the "hot line" at minute 8:30 to the right which appears to be pretty rutted either from the morning race or the 4-wheelers. The line does have the rope that DC speaks to up on lap 1.

https://youtu.be/oRj8vXWy51U
7/13/2017 12:18pm
hard2kill wrote:
Gezz all this drama on top of a race that was already rescheduled under suspicious circumstances, and right on top of another major series event from...
Gezz all this drama on top of a race that was already rescheduled under suspicious circumstances, and right on top of another major series event from which many of these riders earn income as well. Then the face of the organization spills out his emotionally charged viewpoints on a public forum. The professionalism seems lacking. I would not be surprised to see many more riders and industry sponsors continue to move away from Racer Production events in the future.
The circumstances of the race being rescheduled are only suspicious to those who have no understanding of the logistics of putting on an event of the magnitude of a GNCC event. As far as when it was rescheduled, Racer Productions rescheduled the event for the second weekend after Snowshoe, as they should have, since it's the earliest they could have, and still maintained the two week spacing between events.

As far as the points DC made being "emotional" and "unprofessional", I'm not seeing it. I see a man defending his family and their business against unfounded, backhanded accusations of misconduct. He's asking people to consider the facts, instead of vomiting out their gut reactions.
doofy
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7/13/2017 1:14pm
Ironman a few years back AM class i was pointed out a line to avoid a bottleneck BY AN OFFICIAL, and then docked that lap. While in the lead of my class, i might add. Water under the bridge now. I know its difficult to monitor hundreds of riders over several miles amd with all the go pros and cameras at the track now i feel like this is going to be a more common thing

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