Racing and Tax Implications

kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 11:02am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 11:08am
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Yes I do and when I do, "maybe" I write it off as a business lunch! Smile
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 11:13am
steveada wrote:
Personally, I think the majority of the people who ride or have kids that ride, and try to write it off as a business expense, are...
Personally, I think the majority of the people who ride or have kids that ride, and try to write it off as a business expense, are being dishonest. Really, other than local mx shops, people who sell gear or mx parts etc., is there really any value there? How does Joes Plumbing in Crackerville,FL benefit from having its company name plastered on a toy hauler at a race 300 miles away? Does anyone even pay any attention to what businesses are listed on the fender of someones dirtbike at an amateur race when most of them are just whatever the graphics company decided to stick on their stock graphics? If you are just there to race or let your kid race, and you are not actively trying to sell something, handing out flyers to promote something etc, then you are there for a hobby or recreation and have no business writing it off.
All writing it off does is stop you from having to pay tax on your money the 3rd time as an individual, you pay tax when you earn your money and you pay sales tax when you buy stuff. Having a little write off at the end of the year helps.

A company writing it off saves the owners paying any income tax but still has to pay sales tax on the stuff they purchase, even if it's a write off.

It's understandable why people want to away with the Death Tax, gotta pay tax again when you die on anything over $5 million
piscokid
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6/22/2017 11:22am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 11:23am
I own my own business and "sponsor" my son. My company logo is on the bikes, EZ-UP and I expense a lot of the parts and entry fee's off as advertising. I also use some of my companies products and have brochures in the trailer should anybody have questions about said products. My accountant is really risk averse and is OK with the way I do things. When asked about potential audits, his answer is "It will depend solely on the auditor that conducts the audit." With that being said, I do not buy bikes, trailers, RV's etc. thru the company. I probably spend between 5-7k a year on advertising this way.
steveada
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6/22/2017 11:25am
kkawboy14 wrote:
All writing it off does is stop you from having to pay tax on your money the 3rd time as an individual, you pay tax when...
All writing it off does is stop you from having to pay tax on your money the 3rd time as an individual, you pay tax when you earn your money and you pay sales tax when you buy stuff. Having a little write off at the end of the year helps.

A company writing it off saves the owners paying any income tax but still has to pay sales tax on the stuff they purchase, even if it's a write off.

It's understandable why people want to away with the Death Tax, gotta pay tax again when you die on anything over $5 million
It would help more if you just didn't pay any taxes, but that's not really the point. Here's a suggestion. Since it is so great for your business, instead of sponsoring yourself or your own kids, buy me a trailer and a bike and I will take it to all the races and generate all that business for you. You will get the advertising and you won't have to pay taxes on the money you spend to buy my bike and trailer. Win Win for you.

The Shop

Tracktor
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6/22/2017 11:28am
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
6/22/2017 11:56am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Tracktor wrote:
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
And he has a product that he developed and patented that has a market so more power to him. Cool
huck
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6/22/2017 12:18pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Tracktor wrote:
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
Thanks for the news flash... Wink

If he hadn't been, i wouldn't have wasted my time messing with him. He knows I was joking, by replying with 'writing off his pizza'... lol
mx 219
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6/22/2017 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 12:35pm
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Tracktor wrote:
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
lostboy819 wrote:
And he has a product that he developed and patented that has a market so more power to him. Cool
What product?

Back on topic...

My brother is an accountant, though not a CPA yet. I can tell you they are just as inconsistent as any other industry. A lot of interpretation done on their part. Ask one accountant about x and they will say yeah, you can do that then ask another and they will tell you absolutely not. When you have a business pay for a good accountant. At least then it falls back on them.

Don't get me wrong there are some things set in stone for accounting, but there is still quite a few gray areas.
zehn
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6/22/2017 12:48pm
Idk about the people in this thread, but 95% of people don't really understand how "write offs" actually work
6/22/2017 3:15pm
2.5 million a year ? Blink

kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2017 10:32am
Tracktor wrote:
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
lostboy819 wrote:
And he has a product that he developed and patented that has a market so more power to him. Cool
mx 219 wrote:
What product? Back on topic... My brother is an accountant, though not a CPA yet. I can tell you they are just as inconsistent as any...
What product?

Back on topic...

My brother is an accountant, though not a CPA yet. I can tell you they are just as inconsistent as any other industry. A lot of interpretation done on their part. Ask one accountant about x and they will say yeah, you can do that then ask another and they will tell you absolutely not. When you have a business pay for a good accountant. At least then it falls back on them.

Don't get me wrong there are some things set in stone for accounting, but there is still quite a few gray areas.
.com
com
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 3:45pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
All writing it off does is stop you from having to pay tax on your money the 3rd time as an individual, you pay tax when...
All writing it off does is stop you from having to pay tax on your money the 3rd time as an individual, you pay tax when you earn your money and you pay sales tax when you buy stuff. Having a little write off at the end of the year helps.

A company writing it off saves the owners paying any income tax but still has to pay sales tax on the stuff they purchase, even if it's a write off.

It's understandable why people want to away with the Death Tax, gotta pay tax again when you die on anything over $5 million
steveada wrote:
It would help more if you just didn't pay any taxes, but that's not really the point. Here's a suggestion. Since it is so great for...
It would help more if you just didn't pay any taxes, but that's not really the point. Here's a suggestion. Since it is so great for your business, instead of sponsoring yourself or your own kids, buy me a trailer and a bike and I will take it to all the races and generate all that business for you. You will get the advertising and you won't have to pay taxes on the money you spend to buy my bike and trailer. Win Win for you.
I have sponsored/helped 3 Pros, there was less return on investment from sponsoring them than myself!
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 3:46pm
huck wrote:
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Tracktor wrote:
Kawboy is old school been on these boards way longer than most. He is legit even if his posts seem a bit weird at times.........
huck wrote:
Thanks for the news flash... ;) If he hadn't been, i wouldn't have wasted my time messing with him. He knows I was joking, by replying...
Thanks for the news flash... Wink

If he hadn't been, i wouldn't have wasted my time messing with him. He knows I was joking, by replying with 'writing off his pizza'... lol
I got it! Smile
JB 19
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6/22/2017 9:55pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
Revenue or profit?
mx 219
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6/23/2017 6:34am Edited Date/Time 6/23/2017 6:38am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
JB 19 wrote:
Revenue or profit?
I would guess revenue based on a quick search, but that could be wrong. Though numbers online aren't always right.

If he's bringing in 30% margins, which is a fair profit margin, he is looking at $750,000. Pretty nice income. Could be much higher profit margins, also.
Canadad
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6/23/2017 7:28am
In Canada CRA defines a business as an activity performed for profit or a reasonable expectation of profit. If you are filing your return and you are including a racing business, make sure you have a year every so often where you turn a profit, then you can point to a "reasonable expectation of profit". All this assumes that you have some revenue....sponsorships etc. If you have no revenue, it's just a hobby.
Starcrossed
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6/23/2017 7:57am
The sponsorship/advertising vs. hobby issue rears its ugly head again. I would be more inclined to follow the rationale of this OP than what I have previously seen posted on this topic by guys like moto810 and a few others. The touchstone for the IRS revolves around the phrase "ordinary and necessary." Write off anything you want while trying to avoid common pitfalls, like 3 years of reporting a schedule C loss, etc...
I'm also a CPA/MST with about 30 years of experience dealing with IRS practice and procedure. I have recently started my own practice after 25 years employment in a variety of CPA firms from local to international. I am accepting new clients on a limited basis, and offer free consultations to anyone who may be considering using my services. The best general guidance is the familiar comparison to water foul. "If it walks like a duck, etc... Also known as the "reasonable person" standard. A highly qualified CPA should be able to provide basic reliable guidance in most cases. My practice is centered around IRS problem resolution/client representation, so any of you who may have already sidestepped the spirit of the Interenal Revenue code may want to retain my contact info for future reference.
SCR
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6/23/2017 10:11am
Sidestepped the spirit of the Internal Revenue codeWhistling
That sounds like something my CPA would say when I have come up with something really creative to prevent the spirit of the Internal Revenue code from ripping the last nickels from my bloody hands.

The OP article clearly didn't have a ligitimate expense. I have talked with my CPA about this and understand it just as Kawboy and others said. It can be expensed as marketing of a ligitimate profitable business. Or you need a ligitimate race team with real revenue from sponsorship or large purses.

But, yes consult a CPA they ain't cheap and they never say what you want to hear but its better than getting an invitation to meet with an auditer.
Starcrossed
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6/23/2017 10:30am Edited Date/Time 6/23/2017 10:32am
Understanding how the IRS uses DIF scoring to determine which returns are likely to have overstated deductions, or understated income, is essential when advising clients with respect to aggressive positions taken concerning deductions. A taxpayer with an inherently low DIF score is much less likely to be scrutinized for their items of expense. If a client is using their business as their personal pocketbook and has numerous questionable or
'red flag" deductions it may be best to use a conservative, or cautious approach. Clients with numerous questionable items should be certain that their CPA is familiar with DIF scoring, and how it relates to their tax situation.

http://irs-audit.net/DIF_score.html
kkawboy14
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6/23/2017 10:33am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
JB 19 wrote:
Revenue or profit?
mx 219 wrote:
I would guess revenue based on a quick search, but that could be wrong. Though numbers online aren't always right. If he's bringing in 30% margins...
I would guess revenue based on a quick search, but that could be wrong. Though numbers online aren't always right.

If he's bringing in 30% margins, which is a fair profit margin, he is looking at $750,000. Pretty nice income. Could be much higher profit margins, also.
Your pretty close! I wasn't bragging I'm sure there are a lot that make more but I was just showing why I had been audited before.
kkawboy14
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6/23/2017 10:36am
Canadad wrote:
In Canada CRA defines a business as an activity performed for profit or a reasonable expectation of profit. If you are filing your return and you...
In Canada CRA defines a business as an activity performed for profit or a reasonable expectation of profit. If you are filing your return and you are including a racing business, make sure you have a year every so often where you turn a profit, then you can point to a "reasonable expectation of profit". All this assumes that you have some revenue....sponsorships etc. If you have no revenue, it's just a hobby.
It's not a hobby/business......it's advertising! Nobody can show a profit for marketing/advertising that's why it does matter how it's listed in your tax return.

Canadad
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6/23/2017 10:44am
kkawboy14 wrote:
It's not a hobby/business......it's advertising! Nobody can show a profit for marketing/advertising that's why it does matter how it's listed in your tax return.

The case link in the original post is about whether or not the related racing venture met the definition of a 'for profit business'....it was not about advertising. I prepare a tax return for racing venture and the key is that it must be run with a reasonable expectation of profit.
kkawboy14
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6/23/2017 10:57am Edited Date/Time 6/23/2017 10:58am
kkawboy14 wrote:
It's not a hobby/business......it's advertising! Nobody can show a profit for marketing/advertising that's why it does matter how it's listed in your tax return.

Canadad wrote:
The case link in the original post is about whether or not the related racing venture met the definition of a 'for profit business'....it was not...
The case link in the original post is about whether or not the related racing venture met the definition of a 'for profit business'....it was not about advertising. I prepare a tax return for racing venture and the key is that it must be run with a reasonable expectation of profit.
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS.

I believe it's still this way in America that a business can only be run without a profit for 7 years, after that it has to be closed or converted to something else.

Also if a guy was running it as a business and didn't show a profit would he be subject to the minimum tax rules?
Canadad
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6/23/2017 11:24am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS. I believe it's...
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS.

I believe it's still this way in America that a business can only be run without a profit for 7 years, after that it has to be closed or converted to something else.

Also if a guy was running it as a business and didn't show a profit would he be subject to the minimum tax rules?
Unfortunately I am not familiar enough with the minimum tax rules in the US to comment.
SPYGUY
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6/23/2017 11:32am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS. I believe it's...
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS.

I believe it's still this way in America that a business can only be run without a profit for 7 years, after that it has to be closed or converted to something else.

Also if a guy was running it as a business and didn't show a profit would he be subject to the minimum tax rules?
How much would you estimate your business(es) spend on your racing on any given year?

kkawboy14
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6/23/2017 11:41am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS. I believe it's...
Yes.....I was just showing the right way to do it if a guy doesn't ever want to get in trouble with the IRS.

I believe it's still this way in America that a business can only be run without a profit for 7 years, after that it has to be closed or converted to something else.

Also if a guy was running it as a business and didn't show a profit would he be subject to the minimum tax rules?
SPYGUY wrote:
How much would you estimate your business(es) spend on your racing on any given year?

Probably $3000-$4000
JB 19
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6/23/2017 12:08pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
JB 19 wrote:
Revenue or profit?
mx 219 wrote:
I would guess revenue based on a quick search, but that could be wrong. Though numbers online aren't always right. If he's bringing in 30% margins...
I would guess revenue based on a quick search, but that could be wrong. Though numbers online aren't always right.

If he's bringing in 30% margins, which is a fair profit margin, he is looking at $750,000. Pretty nice income. Could be much higher profit margins, also.
Just curious because it can be pretty easy to generate all the revenue you want....turning a profit may be another story.

If a guy is clearing 750K that's awesome.
6/23/2017 2:34pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
Well do I have a great startup business for you!

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