MXDN needs a change

hartebreak
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For years, the MXDN was a 125, a 250 and a 500 on each team, 3 distinct classes. Obviously things have changed, and not to make this a 2 stroke vs 4 stroke thing, but the fact that we end up having 2 classes of essentially 450 bikes makes it a little boring. Not sure what can be done as many manufacturers only make those 2 sizes of bike, but we need to figure out a way to have a 3rd bike size in the race. Obviously the 125 class comes to mind for me, The MXGP series has a EMX125 class and I am sure there are many riders in the states that ride a 125 very well. Maybe not the Dungeys and Osbornes but any one of the fast Loretta kids would do fine. The problem is the lack of 125s out there. I dunno, just talking out my ass but having essentially 2 identical classes makes the race lose a bit of its identity, Read back to 1996 when we had both MC and Emig at the peaks of their careers, Jeff Emig "jumped on his sword" for USA and rode the 500 class so MC could stay on the 250. We had arguably the most dominant race in history with MC, Emig and Lamson all going 1-1. But the point is, Emig was forced to ride a bike he wasnt used to, he sucked it up and in doing so added to the legacy of the race. We need to bring that back!!!


Now I will put my flame retardant suit on.
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Mr. Info
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3/25/2017 10:03am
Send YouthStream your idea they are open to change.
shuggs
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3/25/2017 10:06am
No idea what the answer is but def needs something. Why not 125 with top young guys
mark_swart
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3/25/2017 10:07am
I think they should allow displacement up to 550 in the MX3 class... see if anyone builds a big bore!
jeffro503
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3/25/2017 10:12am
I've always thought MX3 should be an open class...as in no CC limit. Why anyone would need / want to ride anything over a 450 , I don't know. But yeah MX1 and MX3 seem to be pretty much the same class.

The Shop

3/25/2017 10:19am
I've thought the same thing. The "MXGP" and "Open" classes are the same thing. The final "MXGP + Open" race is just "MXGP."
RG1
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3/25/2017 10:31am
jeffro503 wrote:
I've always thought MX3 should be an open class...as in no CC limit. Why anyone would need / want to ride anything over a 450...
I've always thought MX3 should be an open class...as in no CC limit. Why anyone would need / want to ride anything over a 450 , I don't know. But yeah MX1 and MX3 seem to be pretty much the same class.
You can pretty much ride what you want in MX3, in fact it is called MXOPEN now.

As for the OP, IMO having 2 450 classes doesn't make the race lose its identity anywhere near as much as replacing one of them with a 125 class would. Instead of having each nations best 2 450 riders you'd end up with some kid that most have never heard of and is most likely going to be a million miles off the pace
skiz
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3/25/2017 11:00am
I've thought the same thing. The "MXGP" and "Open" classes are the same thing. The final "MXGP + Open" race is just "MXGP."
Having one young guy on a 250 and two racers in their prime on 450s sounds perfect to me for all larger countries. For the USA is actually cuts us back to 3 total racers which underrepresents 320 million people and underrepresents the most dominate "national" racing series. But underrepresentation also means high probability of dominance. US always has the best chance to win because the pool we pick from is everybody in the series other than Roczen and Musquin.

When you look at competitions such as the Golf Ryder Cup, Europe gets to combine its talent to be competitive against the US. MxdN could consider a similar concept. As an example that comes to mind, allow countries with population fewer than 10 or 20 million to double enter the MxdN. They could be tabulated as just their own 3 racers and ALSO pre-event designate one of those 3 racers as having their score counted in a 3 country pool of their mutual choosing.

An example of an outcome would be to have a competitive Slovenian / Lithuanian / Swiss pool (Tim Gajser, Arminas Jasikonis, Valentin Guillod). How would that pool compete against France and the USA.?
3/25/2017 11:02am
RG1 wrote:
You can pretty much ride what you want in MX3, in fact it is called MXOPEN now. As for the OP, IMO having 2 450 classes...
You can pretty much ride what you want in MX3, in fact it is called MXOPEN now.

As for the OP, IMO having 2 450 classes doesn't make the race lose its identity anywhere near as much as replacing one of them with a 125 class would. Instead of having each nations best 2 450 riders you'd end up with some kid that most have never heard of and is most likely going to be a million miles off the pace
I think the point was that, as a practical matter, the "Open" class is just another 450 class. In the old days, it was 125/250/500, and we always had diversity in every race.

But I agree, suddenly injecting a 125 two-stroke class into the fray after a full season of two classes makes no sense. Imagine the 125 + MXGP race with Cairoli/Gajser/Roczen/Tomac in there with a bunch of kids.

Pro racing is a two-class world now. I'm not sure what they should so.
RG1
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3/25/2017 11:04am
I think the point was that, as a practical matter, the "Open" class is just another 450 class. In the old days, it was 125/250/500, and...
I think the point was that, as a practical matter, the "Open" class is just another 450 class. In the old days, it was 125/250/500, and we always had diversity in every race.

But I agree, suddenly injecting a 125 two-stroke class into the fray after a full season of two classes makes no sense. Imagine the 125 + MXGP race with Cairoli/Gajser/Roczen/Tomac in there with a bunch of kids.

Pro racing is a two-class world now. I'm not sure what they should so.
Yeah I'm with you, it would be great if we could have three different capacity classes, but I don't really see anyway it can be achieved either. I think it works pretty well now
skiz
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3/25/2017 11:07am
RG1 wrote:
You can pretty much ride what you want in MX3, in fact it is called MXOPEN now. As for the OP, IMO having 2 450 classes...
You can pretty much ride what you want in MX3, in fact it is called MXOPEN now.

As for the OP, IMO having 2 450 classes doesn't make the race lose its identity anywhere near as much as replacing one of them with a 125 class would. Instead of having each nations best 2 450 riders you'd end up with some kid that most have never heard of and is most likely going to be a million miles off the pace
I agree with that statement. Any change should improve the chances of the top races from both AMA and MxGP being able to be included in the event and also not have their individual effort irrelevant to the central battle.
3/25/2017 11:11am
I say we send guys out on trail bike 125 4 strokes
3/25/2017 11:12am
skiz wrote:
Having one young guy on a 250 and two racers in their prime on 450s sounds perfect to me for all larger countries. For the USA...
Having one young guy on a 250 and two racers in their prime on 450s sounds perfect to me for all larger countries. For the USA is actually cuts us back to 3 total racers which underrepresents 320 million people and underrepresents the most dominate "national" racing series. But underrepresentation also means high probability of dominance. US always has the best chance to win because the pool we pick from is everybody in the series other than Roczen and Musquin.

When you look at competitions such as the Golf Ryder Cup, Europe gets to combine its talent to be competitive against the US. MxdN could consider a similar concept. As an example that comes to mind, allow countries with population fewer than 10 or 20 million to double enter the MxdN. They could be tabulated as just their own 3 racers and ALSO pre-event designate one of those 3 racers as having their score counted in a 3 country pool of their mutual choosing.

An example of an outcome would be to have a competitive Slovenian / Lithuanian / Swiss pool (Tim Gajser, Arminas Jasikonis, Valentin Guillod). How would that pool compete against France and the USA.?
Dude, I have always thought that. Whenever the USA wins overall, everyone here proclaims the USA as "the best, better than the Europeans," but it's not necessarily so. I mean, SO WHAT if a nation of 300+ million beat Slovenia or the Netherlands? How much help do Gajser and Herlings really have?

I would love to see some form of "USA vs. Europe" format, but I don't want to exclude the Pacific or South America or wherever. So I dunno. I do know this: An expanded Team USA would potentially be tremendous. But could you imagine an expanded "Team Europe"? I mean, look at what France brings as it is.
philG
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3/25/2017 11:38am
The way it is now, each country gets to pick 3 riders it wants, without any restriction, at least one has to ride a 250.

Age limits, as has been done before , means guys get picked because they are the right age, while others have to sit on the sidelines
skiz
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3/25/2017 11:52am
I dont think pushing a complete Ryder Cup type "Team Europe" is the answer either. Europe has a population of 740 million, numerous national series that provide "feeder" series into MXGP, and a European public that isnt sidetracked every 2 seconds with Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

If you remove Dungey and Tomac from our series, how does it matchup to MXGP.? Compare the speed of AMA racers that finish between 5-10 to MxGP racers that finish between 5-10. Our best is as good as their best but is our 5-10 as good as their 5-10.?

What if Team Europe crushes us year after year.?

I think little countries being allowed to enter in groups of 3 is worth exploring. Whatever results in the most competitive outcome is best.
3/25/2017 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 3/25/2017 5:44pm
skiz wrote:
I dont think pushing a complete Ryder Cup type "Team Europe" is the answer either. Europe has a population of 740 million, numerous national series that...
I dont think pushing a complete Ryder Cup type "Team Europe" is the answer either. Europe has a population of 740 million, numerous national series that provide "feeder" series into MXGP, and a European public that isnt sidetracked every 2 seconds with Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

If you remove Dungey and Tomac from our series, how does it matchup to MXGP.? Compare the speed of AMA racers that finish between 5-10 to MxGP racers that finish between 5-10. Our best is as good as their best but is our 5-10 as good as their 5-10.?

What if Team Europe crushes us year after year.?

I think little countries being allowed to enter in groups of 3 is worth exploring. Whatever results in the most competitive outcome is best.
I don't disagree with you, I was a lurker here for a long time, and people here have always gloated that the US is so much better than anyone else and that the two American series are so much better than anything else. And I'm not exaggerating. Just last week some guy posted on a thread that "MXGP is a joke." (Try to quantify that one.)

So, for lack of a better solution, I'm intrigued by a quasi-continental format: Europe, North America, South America, Pacific. But I dunno.
skiz
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3/25/2017 12:57pm
skiz wrote:
I dont think pushing a complete Ryder Cup type "Team Europe" is the answer either. Europe has a population of 740 million, numerous national series that...
I dont think pushing a complete Ryder Cup type "Team Europe" is the answer either. Europe has a population of 740 million, numerous national series that provide "feeder" series into MXGP, and a European public that isnt sidetracked every 2 seconds with Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

If you remove Dungey and Tomac from our series, how does it matchup to MXGP.? Compare the speed of AMA racers that finish between 5-10 to MxGP racers that finish between 5-10. Our best is as good as their best but is our 5-10 as good as their 5-10.?

What if Team Europe crushes us year after year.?

I think little countries being allowed to enter in groups of 3 is worth exploring. Whatever results in the most competitive outcome is best.
I don't disagree with you, I was a lurker here for a long time, and people here have always gloated that the US is so much...
I don't disagree with you, I was a lurker here for a long time, and people here have always gloated that the US is so much better than anyone else and that the two American series are so much better than anything else. And I'm not exaggerating. Just last week some guy posted on a thread that "MXGP is a joke." (Try to quantify that one.)

So, for lack of a better solution, I'm intrigued by a quasi-continental format: Europe, North America, South America, Pacific. But I dunno.
"MXGP is a joke"?
I guess I would need to know what they are comparing.

"MXGP is a joke" Quality of management AMA vs MxGP.? OK I can understand that MxGP has some serious issues with their decision making

"MXGP is a joke" Quality of event locations overall.? That would need a whole thread to explore and still not end with a clear answer.

"MXGP is a joke" Quality of racers.? That would be a very ignorant thing to say

"the two American series are so much better than anything else"
Taken as a whole, I would have to agree with the statement. Just the concept of doing a lower speed highly technical Supercross back-to-back with a faster more open Mx series is a huge concept win for the US. The inevitable mix of sand, hardpack, ruts, and mud are also a big advantage over European overdependence on sand. The greater ability for privateers to compete. Not having the racer and team drain of repeated international travel. Every aspect seems to end with an advantage for the AMA
skiz
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3/25/2017 1:15pm
"SO WHAT if a nation of 300+ million beat Slovenia or the Netherlands? How much help do Gajser and Herlings really have?"
Herlings got enough help from Coldenhoff to beat us straight up 30-33, but I still agree with your point. Whats the likelihood of the Netherlands beating us again.? If they beat us, its huge. If we beat them, its whats expected. We dont get credit. You only get credit for wins over equally matched opponents.

So how do you maximize the highest number of equally matched opponents.?
FahQ
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NJ US
3/25/2017 3:30pm
I like the 125 idea but don"t think that would happen.
I think the open class should be 480cc or bigger.
That would help with development
RMOT.org
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Salida, CO US
3/25/2017 3:43pm
skiz wrote:
"SO WHAT if a nation of 300+ million beat Slovenia or the Netherlands? How much help do Gajser and Herlings really have?" Herlings got enough help...
"SO WHAT if a nation of 300+ million beat Slovenia or the Netherlands? How much help do Gajser and Herlings really have?"
Herlings got enough help from Coldenhoff to beat us straight up 30-33, but I still agree with your point. Whats the likelihood of the Netherlands beating us again.? If they beat us, its huge. If we beat them, its whats expected. We dont get credit. You only get credit for wins over equally matched opponents.

So how do you maximize the highest number of equally matched opponents.?
The answer is pretty obvious isnt it ?

250 cc 2 strokes, 250fs and 450s



jemcee
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3/25/2017 8:12pm
Yeah I get what you guys are saying and I was a fan of the old classes but looking at it a different way.. That final moto is usually pretty epic as it's the fastest guys in the world on the bikes they know, like imagine if all the players are there this year, Tomac, Dungey, Cairoli, Herlings, Febvre, Musquin etc..
I fell like it's kinda fitting that it's usually what decides the event
rancor19
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3/25/2017 8:14pm
XR 80's
RMOT.org
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3/25/2017 8:25pm Edited Date/Time 3/25/2017 8:28pm
Yea. Wouldn't want to see 250 2 strokes that nobody knows how to ride holding up the real race bikes.

No homogeneous rule so you could ride an older 2 stroke motor in a new frame. Who Would want to ride something like that ?

Yeah. That would suck. And dont allow efi 2 stroke KTMs or anybody who races the emx 250 class in the MXdN.

Save the racing for the 4 strokes.

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