Private track protection. Forms protecting an owner from being sued?

jeffro503
Profile picture for user jeffro503
Posts
27629
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
jeffro503
Edited Date/Time 5/11/2016 8:54am
Where could I find these documents and how could I get them legal? Also....I'm not sure on this 100% , but isn't there also a law that states " If you're a member of a club , you can't sue the club , or the facility or owner?'

I know the forms would probably need notarized and so forth....but what can a personal home owner / track owner do to protect himself in case some idiot gets hurt and wants to sue?

Could really use some help with this.
|
Olson
Profile picture for user Olson
Posts
4605
Joined
4/14/2012
Location
SE
Olson 5/10/2016 8:51am
5/10/2016 8:51am
A deep enough pit behind the club house.
CarlinoJoeVideo
Profile picture for user CarlinoJoeVideo
Posts
7518
Joined
11/30/2013
Location
Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
CarlinoJoeVideo 5/10/2016 9:04am
5/10/2016 9:04am
Jeffro, do you have a track I can ride when I come up to Portland in June/July? !Whistling
huck
Profile picture for user huck
Posts
17024
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Mountain Home, AR US
huck 5/10/2016 9:05am
5/10/2016 9:05am
No piece of paper can protect you from being sued. A release of liability form will help show that the person knew the risks before entering....however, they aren't rock solid.
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
Cygnus 5/10/2016 9:20am
5/10/2016 9:20am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 9:21am
Best to lien the land to the max value. That way your dad or your mom are in first position. That is if you can trust them. No lawyer in his right mind will sue if you are broke.

The Shop

See All »
jeffro503
Profile picture for user jeffro503
Posts
27629
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
jeffro503 5/10/2016 9:43am
5/10/2016 9:43am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 9:45am
Well i know most all the tracks around here have baically the same form. You sign it before you ride and it doesn't need to be notorized. Was wondering if a private track could use the same form , even if it's not a business? What are the protection rights if the guy was to make it a club?
GeorgiePorgie 5/10/2016 9:46am
5/10/2016 9:46am
It's just paperwork. That doesn't prevent you from being sued.
Tracktor
Profile picture for user Tracktor
Posts
2343
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
Tracktor 5/10/2016 9:47am
5/10/2016 9:47am
No form in the world, that I know if, can stop someone from filing a lawsuit. It may help you defend against it, however. here in WA there is a law for equestrian facilities that states that you assume full responsibility for your actions once you participate in anything horse related. Basically if you ride horses you should know the risk. Doesn't carry to there activities that I know of but if god forbid, I ever get sued I will use that as an example..............I have aporetty well known track in the area and just limit who I let ride and make them sign a waiver......and only a select few of those can play on the FMX ramp, lol.......
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
Cygnus 5/10/2016 10:02am
5/10/2016 10:02am
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue as a land owner. Luckily I was never sued either. I like the lien idea better. As a matter of fact we need to re do the lien as looking on Zillow the place is worth 50k more now than when we did the first one. The horse thing seems to be in most western states so it seems. I wish we could get the same legislation passed for off road machines.
Allracing
Profile picture for user Allracing
Posts
270
Joined
9/1/2006
Location
Bountiful, UT US
Allracing 5/10/2016 10:04am
5/10/2016 10:04am
I have my own private track and went through this, everyone is correct, anyone can sue you at anytime for any reason, it doesn't matter what paper they sign(if you are in the US). Technically there are some benefits to making it a "club", but it still doesn't stop someone from suing you. Also there are some crazy rumors out there where health insurance companies are going after "high risk activities" companies to get their money back after an expensive insurance claim is made, but I've never been able to substantiate that. One additional thing I did is make sure that everyone has health insurance that rides on my track.
huck
Profile picture for user huck
Posts
17024
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Mountain Home, AR US
huck 5/10/2016 10:04am
5/10/2016 10:04am
Cygnus wrote:
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue...
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue as a land owner. Luckily I was never sued either. I like the lien idea better. As a matter of fact we need to re do the lien as looking on Zillow the place is worth 50k more now than when we did the first one. The horse thing seems to be in most western states so it seems. I wish we could get the same legislation passed for off road machines.
I thought Colorado had a 'no sue' / 'participant accepts liability' policy regarding outdoor activities...(ski resorts and such)
motomojo
Profile picture for user motomojo
Posts
493
Joined
12/3/2015
Location
Kingman, AZ US
motomojo 5/10/2016 10:05am
5/10/2016 10:05am
I did some investigating into this before i invited folks out to ride and if you charge a fee, have folks sign waivers or releases, you have entered the legal system and have contracted with these folks and now they have a right to sue you if they get hurt.
You may win you will probably lose the waiver is just a bit of evidence on your side but can be easily beat be any third rate lawyer.

I stay out of the legal system and do not contract with anyone my track is free to ride and there are no waivers to sign.
I use the AZ Recreational Use Statute to protect myself from any legal action.
It protects me from any litigation of any kind if someone gets hurt on my property so long as i do not charge a fee.

So far i have had one rider break an ankle and another youngster break his wrist with no issues as they were invited and not contracted and therefore have no legal standing to bring legal action.

I accept donations as that is allowed by the statute and so far pretty much all but a few (gonna have them) have donated as much and in most cases more than the fee i would charge so i am able to put every dime donated back into the track and not lawyers and Insurance companies.

Here is the Az Statute i am sure your state has similar statutes to protect private land owners who want to allow the public to use their land for recreational pursuits.

http://www.prm.nau.edu/prm426/rec-use-horse.pdf

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/01551.htm…

Hope this helps.
hvaughn88
Profile picture for user hvaughn88
Posts
8361
Joined
6/19/2013
Location
Conway, AR US
hvaughn88 5/10/2016 10:09am
5/10/2016 10:09am
Cygnus wrote:
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue...
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue as a land owner. Luckily I was never sued either. I like the lien idea better. As a matter of fact we need to re do the lien as looking on Zillow the place is worth 50k more now than when we did the first one. The horse thing seems to be in most western states so it seems. I wish we could get the same legislation passed for off road machines.
I wouldn't worry too much about that Zillow value. Those are so far off-base sometimes it's not even funny.
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
Cygnus 5/10/2016 10:14am
5/10/2016 10:14am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 10:15am
huck wrote:
I thought Colorado had a 'no sue' / 'participant accepts liability' policy regarding outdoor activities...(ski resorts and such)
Private land owners if not charging is exempt. One reason I lost the waivers and have them drop a donation in an in marked lock box.

This explains it pretty good. http://www.hallevans.com/admin/javascript/upload/file/Outdoor%20Recreat…
731chopper
Profile picture for user 731chopper
Posts
4224
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
731chopper 5/10/2016 10:14am
5/10/2016 10:14am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 10:16am
You need to talk to a lawyer in your local area who will know the local laws. Laws are different everywhere. Some people are real pieces of shit when it comes to liability and they feel like they can get some money. The courts favor these people and the lawyers sadly. The lawyers and insurance companies have quite the racket going this day in age with regards to this.

Maybe forming a Trust and having the trust own the land is an option to limit your exposure.

If you have a personal track at your home be VERY selective on who you let out there. The truth is it's almost not worth the risk having anyone out there unless you're flat broke. But if you're flat broke you're probably not building a private track.
huck
Profile picture for user huck
Posts
17024
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Mountain Home, AR US
huck 5/10/2016 10:18am
5/10/2016 10:18am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 10:21am
huck wrote:
I thought Colorado had a 'no sue' / 'participant accepts liability' policy regarding outdoor activities...(ski resorts and such)
Cygnus wrote:
Private land owners if not charging is exempt. One reason I lost the waivers and have them drop a donation in an in marked lock box...
Private land owners if not charging is exempt. One reason I lost the waivers and have them drop a donation in an in marked lock box.

This explains it pretty good. http://www.hallevans.com/admin/javascript/upload/file/Outdoor%20Recreat…
that's strange...I pay to ski and don't sign a waiver... hmmmm

(never mind, I read it now)
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
Cygnus 5/10/2016 10:20am
5/10/2016 10:20am
huck wrote:
that's strange...I pay to ski and don't sign a waiver... hmmmm

(never mind, I read it now)
Maybe it has to do with the lift ticket you have to wear while skiing.
mb
Profile picture for user mb
Posts
774
Joined
7/22/2014
Location
Columbia, SC US
mb 5/10/2016 10:25am
5/10/2016 10:25am
create an LLC, let's say "PacNW Riders Club LLC". "Sell" the land the track is on to the LLC. Track is owned and operated by LLC. Get the standard MX release form. Must sign to ride. "Must be a member of PacNW Riders Club to ride. $5 to join, discounted $15 ride fee for 1st ride. After 1st ride $19 ride fee and $1 club membership fee."

LLC removes yourself personally
Making riders become a paid member of the club will give you a little more padding than the standard waiver will.
Keep the water truck, dozer, etc in your name. Ideally a different LLC Contract from PacNW Riders Club LLC to John smith track works LLC to do the track work. Set a fixed grooming schedule so neither LLC can be held negligent due to track conditions, because "track only groomed every other Friday" etc.

Basically you want to remove all assets from the track and create enough speed bumps so that it isn't worth the lawyers time to pursue the case.
Cygnus
Profile picture for user Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
Cygnus 5/10/2016 10:26am
5/10/2016 10:26am
Cygnus wrote:
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue...
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue as a land owner. Luckily I was never sued either. I like the lien idea better. As a matter of fact we need to re do the lien as looking on Zillow the place is worth 50k more now than when we did the first one. The horse thing seems to be in most western states so it seems. I wish we could get the same legislation passed for off road machines.
hvaughn88 wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about that Zillow value. Those are so far off-base sometimes it's not even funny.
It's actually pretty close to what my taxes say too. I pay 200$ a year for property tax. Used to be 150. Lol.

Pit Row

See All »
Frank Tuesday 5/10/2016 10:35am
5/10/2016 10:35am Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 10:56am
Some laws to protect land owners and land managers have exceptions for negligence, ie. poorly designed or poorly maintained features. Find a lawyer that specializes in these things, and talk to your insurance agent. We went through this in a mountain bike club when we were looking at building jumps and wooden structures. For our insurance, a trail through the woods was a natural feature, but if we piled dirt for jumps or built a structure, it ceased to be a natural feature and our liability changed. We had a structural engineer to design them, a bonded and insured construction company to build them, and regular detailed inspections at the request of our insurance. We could still have been sued, but with those conditions, our insurance would cover us in case of a settlement or judgement against us. Had we foregone any of those, our insurance would have denied our claim.
ACBraap
Profile picture for user ACBraap
Posts
1167
Joined
2/10/2012
Location
Seattlish, WA US
Fantasy
590th
ACBraap 5/10/2016 10:39am
5/10/2016 10:39am
Tracktor wrote:
No form in the world, that I know if, can stop someone from filing a lawsuit. It may help you defend against it, however. here in...
No form in the world, that I know if, can stop someone from filing a lawsuit. It may help you defend against it, however. here in WA there is a law for equestrian facilities that states that you assume full responsibility for your actions once you participate in anything horse related. Basically if you ride horses you should know the risk. Doesn't carry to there activities that I know of but if god forbid, I ever get sued I will use that as an example..............I have aporetty well known track in the area and just limit who I let ride and make them sign a waiver......and only a select few of those can play on the FMX ramp, lol.......
How does one get on this list (no interest in the FMX ramp)?
ACBraap
Profile picture for user ACBraap
Posts
1167
Joined
2/10/2012
Location
Seattlish, WA US
Fantasy
590th
ACBraap 5/10/2016 10:46am
5/10/2016 10:46am
731chopper wrote:
You need to talk to a lawyer in your local area who will know the local laws. Laws are different everywhere. Some people are real pieces...
You need to talk to a lawyer in your local area who will know the local laws. Laws are different everywhere. Some people are real pieces of shit when it comes to liability and they feel like they can get some money. The courts favor these people and the lawyers sadly. The lawyers and insurance companies have quite the racket going this day in age with regards to this.

Maybe forming a Trust and having the trust own the land is an option to limit your exposure.

If you have a personal track at your home be VERY selective on who you let out there. The truth is it's almost not worth the risk having anyone out there unless you're flat broke. But if you're flat broke you're probably not building a private track.
It's not even people, it's the health insurance companies that pay the bills. The insurance companies will look to collect $ to offset their expenses if they think they can.

Use of legal entities to protect other assets would be a start. A good waiver helps, but does not protect against lawsuits occurring. An arbitration clause in the waiver could keep the legal costs lower in the case of a dispute. Ultimately, liability insurance would be a must if you have assets you want to protect.

Most states have recreational use statutes that provide immunity to landowners who don't charge for admission. An attorney friend of mine wrote an article on them a few years back that I'll try and find.
Manco
Profile picture for user Manco
Posts
318
Joined
6/19/2014
Location
Denver, CO US
Manco 5/10/2016 11:54am
5/10/2016 11:54am
731chopper wrote:
You need to talk to a lawyer in your local area who will know the local laws. Laws are different everywhere. Some people are real pieces...
You need to talk to a lawyer in your local area who will know the local laws. Laws are different everywhere. Some people are real pieces of shit when it comes to liability and they feel like they can get some money. The courts favor these people and the lawyers sadly. The lawyers and insurance companies have quite the racket going this day in age with regards to this.

Maybe forming a Trust and having the trust own the land is an option to limit your exposure.

If you have a personal track at your home be VERY selective on who you let out there. The truth is it's almost not worth the risk having anyone out there unless you're flat broke. But if you're flat broke you're probably not building a private track.
The first sentence of the above quoted post is the advice to take.

Talking to a lawyer is crucial in setting up a situation to protect oneself from liability. In addition to knowing how to protect assets from liability a lawyer can properly write up documents according to local statutes and previous precedents. When a lawyer writes up a document its not just a sheet of words that is good enough. It is a document that the lawyer has put together specifically with their knowledge of law in such a way that they are prepared in advance to defend the document in court if need be. So in the situation of a lawyer writing up a liability waver for an MX track its like having a lawyer run through all the legal angles of possible lawsuits and making sure all bases are covered in advance in the liability waver. Spending a few hundred bucks on having a lawyer put all this stuff together in advance can save thousands if not millions of dollars in legal problems down the road should an unfortunate situation occur.

hvaughn88
Profile picture for user hvaughn88
Posts
8361
Joined
6/19/2013
Location
Conway, AR US
hvaughn88 5/10/2016 12:34pm
5/10/2016 12:34pm
Cygnus wrote:
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue...
When I was a club the form stated that the day they rode they owned a postage stamp peice of the land and you can't sue as a land owner. Luckily I was never sued either. I like the lien idea better. As a matter of fact we need to re do the lien as looking on Zillow the place is worth 50k more now than when we did the first one. The horse thing seems to be in most western states so it seems. I wish we could get the same legislation passed for off road machines.
hvaughn88 wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about that Zillow value. Those are so far off-base sometimes it's not even funny.
Cygnus wrote:
It's actually pretty close to what my taxes say too. I pay 200$ a year for property tax. Used to be 150. Lol.
are you taxes pretty accurate? The only reason I ask is because (at least here) it's not uncommon for the appraised tax value to be quite a bit different from an actual appraised value (sometimes high, sometimes low, sometimes right on). It might be right on the money, but all I'm saying is I wouldn't worry about basing that decision just off of a Zillow estimate.
Underdog999
Profile picture for user Underdog999
Posts
662
Joined
11/20/2011
Location
Kalaheo, HI US
Underdog999 5/10/2016 12:42pm
5/10/2016 12:42pm
Don't forget, if you have insurance, it's your insurance company who is going to pay for someone who sues you. People always think that you personally pay, or the track pays. It's not. It's the insurance company. They run the world behind the scenes.
FreshTopEnd
Profile picture for user FreshTopEnd
Posts
13067
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA US
FreshTopEnd 5/10/2016 1:25pm
5/10/2016 1:25pm
mb wrote:
create an LLC, let's say "PacNW Riders Club LLC". "Sell" the land the track is on to the LLC. Track is owned and operated by LLC...
create an LLC, let's say "PacNW Riders Club LLC". "Sell" the land the track is on to the LLC. Track is owned and operated by LLC. Get the standard MX release form. Must sign to ride. "Must be a member of PacNW Riders Club to ride. $5 to join, discounted $15 ride fee for 1st ride. After 1st ride $19 ride fee and $1 club membership fee."

LLC removes yourself personally
Making riders become a paid member of the club will give you a little more padding than the standard waiver will.
Keep the water truck, dozer, etc in your name. Ideally a different LLC Contract from PacNW Riders Club LLC to John smith track works LLC to do the track work. Set a fixed grooming schedule so neither LLC can be held negligent due to track conditions, because "track only groomed every other Friday" etc.

Basically you want to remove all assets from the track and create enough speed bumps so that it isn't worth the lawyers time to pursue the case.
With respect, I think this is terribly naive.

A person should talk to a lawyer practicing in the state where you are located, because different states approach liability for recreational use differently.

There's no magic incantation that will prevent someone from filing a lawsuit (crazy people file tin foil George Bush and Obama and Kim are in my head lawsuits every day), but waivers tailored to your state and solid insurance tailored to the operation are the foundation for any well run personal or commercial track, along with following best practices for its use.

The other "fixes," if they lack that foundation, IMO are gimmicks for the most part and probably not going to do a lot to protect you; in fact, their absence may hurt you and lead a court to disregard whatever "shielding entity" formalities got cobbled up to avoid liability if insurance isn't in place (not saying incorporation isn't appropriate in some situations). But again, individual state law rules in this area.
Tracktor
Profile picture for user Tracktor
Posts
2343
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
Tracktor 5/10/2016 1:46pm
5/10/2016 1:46pm
Tracktor wrote:
No form in the world, that I know if, can stop someone from filing a lawsuit. It may help you defend against it, however. here in...
No form in the world, that I know if, can stop someone from filing a lawsuit. It may help you defend against it, however. here in WA there is a law for equestrian facilities that states that you assume full responsibility for your actions once you participate in anything horse related. Basically if you ride horses you should know the risk. Doesn't carry to there activities that I know of but if god forbid, I ever get sued I will use that as an example..............I have aporetty well known track in the area and just limit who I let ride and make them sign a waiver......and only a select few of those can play on the FMX ramp, lol.......
ACBraap wrote:
How does one get on this list (no interest in the FMX ramp)?
You gotta know someone who knows someone.........lol

The whole "Sell the track to an LLC" isn't going to work if the track is on your personal land & and you have a mortgage on it. Can't just randomly sub-divide parcels of land willy-nilly..........I never charge a fee but have accepted donations and done a couple of fund raisers for people where we took donations for those who needed some help.........I am not going to live my life worried about every little thing. If I get sued I get sued. Life is too short to live in fear. Just know if you sue someone and make them not have as much to lose you get to own the consequences..........
Pete The Fisherman 5/10/2016 1:47pm
5/10/2016 1:47pm
Tuck a .357 magnum in the front of your pants and always walk around with it. Cheapest and most affective method of insurance imo.
mb
Profile picture for user mb
Posts
774
Joined
7/22/2014
Location
Columbia, SC US
mb 5/10/2016 2:15pm
5/10/2016 2:15pm
Just throwing out ideas. 99% of the time the owner finds out it isn't worth it, and doesn't let anyone ride.
bsharkey
Profile picture for user bsharkey
Posts
2162
Joined
6/16/2014
Location
Marysville, WA US
bsharkey 5/10/2016 2:20pm
5/10/2016 2:20pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2016 2:21pm
huck wrote:
No piece of paper can protect you from being sued. A release of liability form will help show that the person knew the risks before entering....however...
No piece of paper can protect you from being sued. A release of liability form will help show that the person knew the risks before entering....however, they aren't rock solid.
jeffro , huck pretty much summed it up right here. we had a track but any good lawyer will tell you it can be beat. nothings 100%. the best thing I can tell you is make sure your 100% positive the people you invite over you trust or don't do it at all. we had a few injuries at mine but only 1 I worried about and still hope the dude wont come back years down the road and try to get me back for his own deal.
731chopper
Profile picture for user 731chopper
Posts
4224
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
731chopper 5/10/2016 2:23pm
5/10/2016 2:23pm
Underdog999 wrote:
Don't forget, if you have insurance, it's your insurance company who is going to pay for someone who sues you. People always think that you personally...
Don't forget, if you have insurance, it's your insurance company who is going to pay for someone who sues you. People always think that you personally pay, or the track pays. It's not. It's the insurance company. They run the world behind the scenes.
It depends. Most likely there will be a suit brought against the owner's liability insurance(s) and the individual.

Post a reply to: Private track protection. Forms protecting an owner from being sued?