Posts
7
Joined
5/4/2008
Location
US
Edited Date/Time
1/25/2012 3:16am
I found this on another site....
The cost of racing will drive out the people that make our sport so good.
Just look at nascar. How in the heck would you ever go pro in that? Buy your own car like Ricky's? No. Try dirt track? No. Car racing has almost become reserved for the rich of wallet, not the most talented. Hell, I would LOVE to race cars, or shifter carts, or some sort of 4 wheeled vehicle, but I just plain can't afford to.
Here is the motocross story, before it goes extinct.
First came the four strokes.
Yeay for more usable power!
Yeayfor no more fouled plugs!
Yeay for no more premix!
Yeay for no more religious top end rebuilds!
But should we say:
Yeay for 2000 dollar engine rebuilds?
Yeay for heavier bikes?
Yeay for 5000 dollar mod bikes?
Yeay for increased part wear (tires, chains, sprockets)?
Yeay for more expensive purchase prices?
Yeay for the "neutral only start" routine?
Yeay for the death of the used bike market?
With the introduction of the four stroke in to main stream racing, you bought a lot more for each bike.
Valves (originally titanium)
Cams
Cool pistons
Oil pumps
Titanium exhausts
Carburetors with fuel squirter's (accelerator pump).
The four stroke is a technical marvel, but think for a second. Which bike requires more of a tuning knowledge? I feel the two stroke is magnanimously cooler when you look at the actual science behind the tuning.
Four strokes: more air in, higher revs, more power out.
The two stroke is a constant balance between power and ride ability.
Four strokes were great when Yamaha released them. The required almost ZERO maintenance, and were easy to go fast on for everyone. People no longer had to ride on the pipe, and the gap between beginner to novice to intermediate closed substantially.
But then came the problems (although I would like to say leave Yamaha out of it). When bikes blew up, they BLEW UP! (Ready, Inhale!) Now, a new crank was needed when the piston abruptly stopped moving from the valves sticking open because a 5 dollar valve keeper got loose requiring a new cylinder combined with a new head because the valve destroyed it (Phew! exhale!). Oil starvation required new cams and heads, sometimes a piston, and don't count out a crank after you fix the aforementioned problems because the effects of oil starvation weren't present during the rebuild. After a new reciprocating assembly, your transmission goes out, because the root of your oil starvation problems are a 3 dollar crank seal.
Then the used bike dilemma surfaced. With a particular brand of bikes experiencing valve recession, when you bought a bike, it was only a matter of time.
TICK, TOCK,
TICK, TOCK
BOOOM! There goes your brand "new" used bike.
People, realizing the problem, did a couple things. First, many completely serviced their "new" used bike, checking and often replacing every part necessary. Second, others bought new bikes only. Many raced a year, traded in, and raced another year, dumping off their used steed to some poor soul.
Of course, dealers were happy, they were selling an abundance of high mark up parts, and it wasn't their fault the bikes were breaking! They also got more shop business because the public were duped into thinking the four stroke is hard to work on.
Manufacturers were happy, they were selling more new bikes than ever, and they were selling more parts than ever, in part because mags were all raving the how great four strokes were, and in part because the pros were slowly coming round to the four stroke.
The aftermarket was happy. Exhausts now coast upwards of a grand, motor mods over a grand, pistons two hundred, weird trinkets and triple clamps surfaced to make the four stroke handle better like the two stroke. With valve failures, the aftermarket could now offer "upgraded" parts to make the bike last longer.
So yeay. Yeay for a thriving bike economy, yeay for cool technology, and yeay for faster riders.
But not really. With EFI on the horizon, jetting is no longer know how and a 2 dollar jet or a free change of the needle position. Now a computer tuner is needed when you add an aftermarket exhaust or air filter, and even more sad is that the stock jetting can be wrong.
A computer science degree is needed to work the systems. Don't beleive me? Just read about how horrible the Suzuki is stock, and how much worse the problem is with a pipe. The tuners are easily 500 bucks.
And the used bikes are REALLY in trouble. Now you may need a new injector, fuel pump or will think you do when a wire goes astray.
All for what? Did EFI really make the Suzuki better? No, it did horribly in the reviews. Did four strokes make the sport better? No, I see less and less riders every year at my local track, and it used to be packed, every practice. Now the track can barely stay afloat, and race turnouts are barely making three to a class. Are riders truly faster? The clock may say so, but their skill would belay the numbers. Put em' on a two stroke, and weep. It is that sad.
Don't feed into the B.S.
EFI will only cost more in the long run, and it doesn't make more power. Four strokes are killing the sport, and in five years, I will no longer have a local track. Hell, it's for sale as we speak.
My local track is Cycle Ranch, the BEST dirt in Texas, with one of the best layouts for true motocross, PERIOD. Don't beleive me, just ask the Alessi's, Heath Voss, Pastrana, the Hahn family, Sean Hackley, and many, many more. Dirt Rider calls it the hidden treasure in the south.
And yet, the track is going under from lack of turn out.
I'm not blatantly saying buy a two stroke, but think twice before you get that four stroke.
I agree with this guy. Rider turnouts are drastically down where I am from. I look at my local track, 5-6 years ago 400-500 riders would show up on race day, the last two years they were lucky to get over 100 riders. Five of my six friends stopped riding because of the expense to maintain a four stroke. If 2 strokes die...i think the amateur side of this sport is going to suffer. I am not saying it is going to die...but I think it will be alot less affordable for the average person, or average family income. Does anybody else notice these patterns? What are your opinions or feedback from this article?
The cost of racing will drive out the people that make our sport so good.
Just look at nascar. How in the heck would you ever go pro in that? Buy your own car like Ricky's? No. Try dirt track? No. Car racing has almost become reserved for the rich of wallet, not the most talented. Hell, I would LOVE to race cars, or shifter carts, or some sort of 4 wheeled vehicle, but I just plain can't afford to.
Here is the motocross story, before it goes extinct.
First came the four strokes.
Yeay for more usable power!
Yeayfor no more fouled plugs!
Yeay for no more premix!
Yeay for no more religious top end rebuilds!
But should we say:
Yeay for 2000 dollar engine rebuilds?
Yeay for heavier bikes?
Yeay for 5000 dollar mod bikes?
Yeay for increased part wear (tires, chains, sprockets)?
Yeay for more expensive purchase prices?
Yeay for the "neutral only start" routine?
Yeay for the death of the used bike market?
With the introduction of the four stroke in to main stream racing, you bought a lot more for each bike.
Valves (originally titanium)
Cams
Cool pistons
Oil pumps
Titanium exhausts
Carburetors with fuel squirter's (accelerator pump).
The four stroke is a technical marvel, but think for a second. Which bike requires more of a tuning knowledge? I feel the two stroke is magnanimously cooler when you look at the actual science behind the tuning.
Four strokes: more air in, higher revs, more power out.
The two stroke is a constant balance between power and ride ability.
Four strokes were great when Yamaha released them. The required almost ZERO maintenance, and were easy to go fast on for everyone. People no longer had to ride on the pipe, and the gap between beginner to novice to intermediate closed substantially.
But then came the problems (although I would like to say leave Yamaha out of it). When bikes blew up, they BLEW UP! (Ready, Inhale!) Now, a new crank was needed when the piston abruptly stopped moving from the valves sticking open because a 5 dollar valve keeper got loose requiring a new cylinder combined with a new head because the valve destroyed it (Phew! exhale!). Oil starvation required new cams and heads, sometimes a piston, and don't count out a crank after you fix the aforementioned problems because the effects of oil starvation weren't present during the rebuild. After a new reciprocating assembly, your transmission goes out, because the root of your oil starvation problems are a 3 dollar crank seal.
Then the used bike dilemma surfaced. With a particular brand of bikes experiencing valve recession, when you bought a bike, it was only a matter of time.
TICK, TOCK,
TICK, TOCK
BOOOM! There goes your brand "new" used bike.
People, realizing the problem, did a couple things. First, many completely serviced their "new" used bike, checking and often replacing every part necessary. Second, others bought new bikes only. Many raced a year, traded in, and raced another year, dumping off their used steed to some poor soul.
Of course, dealers were happy, they were selling an abundance of high mark up parts, and it wasn't their fault the bikes were breaking! They also got more shop business because the public were duped into thinking the four stroke is hard to work on.
Manufacturers were happy, they were selling more new bikes than ever, and they were selling more parts than ever, in part because mags were all raving the how great four strokes were, and in part because the pros were slowly coming round to the four stroke.
The aftermarket was happy. Exhausts now coast upwards of a grand, motor mods over a grand, pistons two hundred, weird trinkets and triple clamps surfaced to make the four stroke handle better like the two stroke. With valve failures, the aftermarket could now offer "upgraded" parts to make the bike last longer.
So yeay. Yeay for a thriving bike economy, yeay for cool technology, and yeay for faster riders.
But not really. With EFI on the horizon, jetting is no longer know how and a 2 dollar jet or a free change of the needle position. Now a computer tuner is needed when you add an aftermarket exhaust or air filter, and even more sad is that the stock jetting can be wrong.
A computer science degree is needed to work the systems. Don't beleive me? Just read about how horrible the Suzuki is stock, and how much worse the problem is with a pipe. The tuners are easily 500 bucks.
And the used bikes are REALLY in trouble. Now you may need a new injector, fuel pump or will think you do when a wire goes astray.
All for what? Did EFI really make the Suzuki better? No, it did horribly in the reviews. Did four strokes make the sport better? No, I see less and less riders every year at my local track, and it used to be packed, every practice. Now the track can barely stay afloat, and race turnouts are barely making three to a class. Are riders truly faster? The clock may say so, but their skill would belay the numbers. Put em' on a two stroke, and weep. It is that sad.
Don't feed into the B.S.
EFI will only cost more in the long run, and it doesn't make more power. Four strokes are killing the sport, and in five years, I will no longer have a local track. Hell, it's for sale as we speak.
My local track is Cycle Ranch, the BEST dirt in Texas, with one of the best layouts for true motocross, PERIOD. Don't beleive me, just ask the Alessi's, Heath Voss, Pastrana, the Hahn family, Sean Hackley, and many, many more. Dirt Rider calls it the hidden treasure in the south.
And yet, the track is going under from lack of turn out.
I'm not blatantly saying buy a two stroke, but think twice before you get that four stroke.
I agree with this guy. Rider turnouts are drastically down where I am from. I look at my local track, 5-6 years ago 400-500 riders would show up on race day, the last two years they were lucky to get over 100 riders. Five of my six friends stopped riding because of the expense to maintain a four stroke. If 2 strokes die...i think the amateur side of this sport is going to suffer. I am not saying it is going to die...but I think it will be alot less affordable for the average person, or average family income. Does anybody else notice these patterns? What are your opinions or feedback from this article?
The manufacturers completely misjudged the whole 4 stroke bullshit.
And the spineless leadership at the AMA, the one orginization that could have done something about it, caved.
Now they have finally decided to do something about it, but sadly, it is 5 years too late.
Even now they have failed, and continue to fail miserably, to address the noise issues and the fact that the bikes have simply gotten too fast for amateur riders.
At least they are sticking to their guns on the 150f issue.
Meanwhile the number of new participants has plunged because of the expense of racing overall and the frightening ioncrease in injuries.
From the high maintainence 50's that put out mare HP than my first 100cc race bike to the 450cc machines that even top pros have to mellow out to ride our sport has just taken a complete turn for the absurd.
I fear it is turning into polo.
You need multiple mounts to compete, and in between matches you lounge around in your mobile palace sipping the latest energy drink fad and watch the film footage of your last moto/heat/practice/tire test.
Hardly the sport it once was.
The sport that gave us Jeff Stanton, Larocco, Kiedrowski, Cooper, and other working class heros is becoming an upper class only sport, simply because they are the only ones that can still afford it.
So sad.............
RIP glory days of MX
The Shop
Free shipping: VITALMX
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
But then, maybe they are making enough off the parts needed to fix the fourstrokes to cover the plunging sales.
I guess the fact that the resale value is nothing wouldn't matter to them either.
Of course when you look at the big, big picture it probably doesn't make much sense for the factories to be all that involved in the sport.
Back in the 70's Marty Smith sold a bunch of elsinores for Honda.
I doubt Stewart, or Reed do the same now.
Add in the cost of factory contengency programs and liability issues and it is most likely a money pit that the MBAs would prefer to get out of anyway.
I am not sure that is a great direction for the "sport"
Lots of parents who rode growing up getting involved with their kids.
Its less expensive, you get a lot more seat time and it is very low key.
Remember we are so early in the development curve here that i think a lot of the problems will be ironed out.
Imagine how people felt buying a 1980 model when all the '81s had single shock rear and water cooling. Imagine trying to sell a 1980 model with air cooling and twin shocks. Yes, we heard that the newly complicated bikes would be too expensive and hard to work on.
But it does suck how they are killing off the two stroke. I still ride a two stroke, and they were everywhere at the track I was at yesterday. And enough racers where they were still running motos at 7 p.m.
Does anyone young just race for fun anymore? Seems a bunch of the amateurs all have alot of pressure on them from parents to do well, so they wont have to cover all the costs of racing themselves. Blame it on the four stroke all you want, but when I was growing the only four stroke were street bikes, and it still took us forever to get a 80 something YZ80. Oh and when it broke, well it set for a while.
I fear it is turning into polo.
You need multiple mounts to compete, and in between matches you lounge around in your mobile palace sipping the latest energy drink fad and watch the film footage of your last moto/heat/practice/tire test.
Hardly the sport it once was.
I don't know what it used to be like, but the last time I raced at one of the bigger tracks here I had a miserable time. We took a big tent and planned on camping out the night before. Well I finally got to sleep at 2am, woke up at 4am to the sound of another loud generator being turned on nearby. I picked a spot away from all the RV's but I could feel the ground rumble from all the generators. My friends and I were the only ones not in a big motorhome.
Oh and about the cost of racing.. we are in a recession. That and the high cost of gas to & from, and higher costs of bikes & repairs keep many away from the tracks. I'm blessed & thankful to have a job to be able to afford an older bike & what little track time I have.
with all the local mx tracks looking more like sx tracks, riders are just turning to different formats of racing.
i was at elsinore's track the other day, that track is insane. it does nothing to invite new riders into the sport.
It's a double whammy because now a lot of owners are trying to dump their thumpers after a year or two before they grenade. And the buyers aren't looking to pick up a used thumper.
And yes, I get the horror stories every week from my friends that wrench at bike shops. They do go boom. Probably from improper maint but they're still going boom.
Pit Row
It's difficult to design a track that is going to keep a 17 year old Pro Sport rider and a 40+ B rider entertained and confident.
Sometimes you have to suck it up. I raced on a very Supercrossy track this weekend and I counted 20 jumps per lap. That's 80 jumps a moto and 400 jumps I took all day including practice since I rode four motos.
Some of them were super-peaked Supercross style. You just have to adapt and realize the sport changes...and if not maybe it's time to take to the trails or your favorite practice track. Certainly no shame in that.
As for RVs. Any decently organized track needs to have limits on the hours you can fun a generator. It's so funny to me to see someone unload a freakin Rhino and drive it 100 feet to the riders meeting. It's just for posing, c'mon!
my initial point is that, even tho numbers may be down at local races, the number of bikes/parts/gear sold might not have dropped at all so the industry is just fine. people are just doing other formats of riding/racing.
people will always ride dirtbikes. if numbers drop at the local level too much, the track owners will have to be the ones to adapt. i wouldnt stress on it if.
Yep, too many classes and not enough track time has resulted in a lot of people I know (myself included) becoming 'professional practice riders'. "Sorry, but due to overwhelming turnout, the second motos will be reduced to 2 laps" For guys that actually like to ride rather than sit around, amateur mx has lost a lot of its value. Our District just recently got rid of the 'Four-Stroke' class - what a joke.
Not getting in enough laps? $ign up for another class! Figure out your cost-per-lap next time you go racing. Bragging rights and a cheap plastic trophy can be expensive!
Oh wait, you're not going to win anyway, because little Johnny Go-Fast (who has been down in Florida training with Stewart and Carmichael all Winter) needs to stay in the 'B' class, so he can win at Loretta's.
The cost of travel and a cutback in contingency would slow things down, but the 4-strokes haven't.
I don't think as many people will criss-cross the country in 40" RVs. Mine's an apartment right now. But if you want to chase the dream, you can drive something cheaper.
Not sure where contingency is going.
Bike sales are way down and OEM cost cutting is real, so tough times are still ahead.
Right now, it seems amateur racing is healthy.
The main problem is due to the weak dollar, the OEMs are losing money on dirt bikes in the US. Why put zillions into contingency to lose money? That is worth paying attention to.
chrysler has been doing that for years......
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