HP difference 250F V 250T stroke?

Here is the Oak Hill results in the same class with no 2 strokes.

125 Int Stk
Finish Number Brand Name City,State Moto 1 Moto 2
1 128 KAW Dean Wilson San Jacinto, CA 1 1
2 51 HON Justin Barcia Cairo, GA 3 2
3 117 SUZ Nick Paluzzi Riverside, CA 4 3
4 175 KAW Bruce Rutherford Murrieta, CA 6 4
5 44 YAM Christian Craig Youngsville, CA 1 5
6 179 KAW Blake Baggett Grand Terrace, CA 1 6
7 471 SUZ Kyle Regal Kemp, TX 5 7
8 691 KAW James Justice Columbus, OH 7 8
9 167 HON Sunny Drake Fulton, NY 10 9
10 271 KAW Malcolm Stewart Haines City, FL 8 10 <------- went from winning a title to tenth??????
11 726 YAM Gared Steinke Sacrromento, CA 12 11
12 312 KTM Jason Anderson Edgewood, NM 33 12
13 261 HON Dakota Garner Lakeside, CA 7 13
14 134 HON Kyle Engle Murrieta, CA 23 14
15 12 SUZ Justin Starling Deland, FL 5 15
16 681 SUZ Austin Howell Red Bluff, CA 6 16 <------------- here is our 2 stroke guy on a 4 stroke now you tell me that his bike didn't help him get 3rd overall.

It's quite obvious when you look at the proof that these kids do better than average when given the extra HP.

here is the mod at Oak Hill just so you don't think Austin had bad motos in the stock class.

125 Int Mod
Finish Number Brand Name City,State Moto 1 Moto 2
1 119 SUZ Ian Trettel Silver Springs, FL 4 1
2 51 HON Justin Barcia Cairo, GA 1 2
3 312 KTM Jason Anderson Edgewood, NM 1 3
4 179 KAW Blake Baggett Grand Terrace, CA 2 4
5 128 KAW Dean Wilson San Jacinto, CA 2 5
6 471 SUZ Kyle Regal Kemp, TX 5 6
7 134 HON Kyle Engle Murrieta, CA 5 7
8 123 SUZ Drew Mitchell Oregon City, OR 6 8
9 50 HON Sean Lipanovich Cairo, GA 8 9 <------ no moto wins for him on the 4 stroke either. he won 2 motos at Whitney on the 2 stroke.
10 711 KAW Ronnie Goodwin Las Vegas, NV 17 10
11 965 HON Travis Bright Ojai, CA 18 11
12 547 YAM Taylor Bittner Reno, NV 9 12
13 205 HON Brandon Brady San Dimas, CA 7 13
14 117 SUZ Nick Paluzzi Riverside, CA 3 14
15 726 YAM Gared Steinke Sacrromento, CA 34 15
16 41 KTM Tommy Weeck Duvall, WA 1 16
17 681 SUZ Austin Howell Red Bluff, CA 7 17 <------ here he is with the exact same result as the stock on a 4 stroke.

Sorry j100 I can't feel your pain.

A privateer who's probably underfunded compared to team riders has been afforded the opportunity to gain a little horsepower on the pro's without sinking $3000.00 into a 4 stroke disposable engine. Good for them I say.

There is no AMA rule saying your team riders can't ride them. I am sure if you and the rest of the teams whine to Ryan Holiday
and the AMA you will get this overturned.

it's all good and I respect your opinion.

Part of me thinks this new rule was added and accepted by the OEM's in order to sell their inventory of leftover dusty crates of 2-strokes. As soon as they sell out in a year or two...back to 4-strokes and the rule will change again. I could be totally off base here...but it would not surprise me.

The 250F is a cancer on this sport.

I respect yours as well.

[quote="CamP":29gh2vex]The 250F is a cancer on this sport.[/quote:29gh2vex]x2

[quote="Twizzler":39iary9c]Part of me thinks this new rule was added and accepted by the OEM's in order to sell their inventory of leftover dusty crates of 2-strokes. As soon as they sell out in a year or two...back to 4-strokes and the rule will change again. I could be totally off base here...but it would not surprise me.[/quote:39iary9c]
Part of me thinks the factories aren't selling as many bikes as they used to, due to the significantly higher cost. This gives them a graceful way for them to backtrack and see if unit sales go back up.

I see less wrong with the 250T vs 250F than I do 250F vs 125T. I also feel that between the AMA and the OEM's someone needs to be held accountable for the extinction of the 125. It's a crime against humanity dammit! Now you have kids going from 85's straight up to 250 2 strokes. Something about that isn't right. 125's have a place in MX , sad to see what's become of the sport the last few years.

And about that Trettel kid getting beat, it looks like he got beat at Whitney.

[quote="j100":3gqecb77] we have contracts to ride the current models. With that being said, I can still voice my opinion about what I feel is right from watching it go down first hand and I stick by my opinion.[/quote:3gqecb77]

There's your problem/point right there. The contracts that were signed require the riders to ride a specific machine (so you're stuck with it), which is great, as long as someone else pays for it. But when it comes to the guy who has to buy his own bike/parts, or his family does so, or even a local shop, it makes better economic sense to buy a 2T. You get more bang for the buck...especially when you figure in maintenenance costs.

Also, mention was made about moving the 250T to the mod class. Who here thinks a 250f with $10K worth of mods (making 40 plus HP, and needing a rebuild every race) will be competitive with a 2T motor that has maybe $2-3k if not less worth of mods and makes close to 60hp?

As for the extremely rough estimates of mod costs...ever priced PC cams? $600 or better...apiece. Just the cams.Ridiculous.

[quote="rocrac":h02m2835]Sorry j100 I can't feel your pain.

[b:h02m2835]A privateer who's probably underfunded compared to team riders has been afforded the opportunity to gain a little horsepower on the pro's without sinking $3000.00 into a 4 stoke disposable engine. Good for them I say.[/b:h02m2835]


There is no AMA rule saying your team riders can't ride them. I am sure if you and the rest of the teams whine to Ryan Holiday
and the AMA you will get this overturned.[/quote:h02m2835]


bump

Some riders will go faster on a 250 2T and some will go faster on a 250 4T. Bit like some riders were quicker on 250 2T's than 500 2T's back in the day. I personally preferred 500's.

Depends on riding style. A full on clutching, wide open style will suit a 2T rider and a smoother torquer will go faster on a 4T, and as a lot of young guys are coming up from 85's maybe a lot of riders will suit a 2T.

What I'm saying is let the rider decide.

I agree with everyone about the 4 strokes being a shitty thing for our sport and I am all for a 2 stroke efi, believe me. I don't care who you are or how much money you make -- the money we spend on the 4 bangers is completely out of line and it's hurting our sport as a whole.

I am not the guy who is praising where our sport is going, believe me. I am just voicing my opinion about what I saw at the Whitney rounds. If it were up to me we -- would all be on 2 stroke EFI's, your average guy could rebuild his own bike, the average Joe could afford some aftermarket parts and I am sure bikes sales would go back up due to the lower cost of maintenance.

Then let the poor kids on welfare have fun and ride their 2 strokes and quit crying.

What wattage will the AMA allow for an electric bike in the 250 class?

1.21 jiggawatts.

Back to the future

j100, too bad your team has to ride the inferior and costlier equipment that the factories make us think is the thing of the future. you will have to see the option of riding 2 strokes next year instead of thumpers. but there's always going to be a supertalented rider that is short on cash and isnt one of the amateur team's sweethearts. if you read wide open jeremy mcgrath was one of those kids. in my opinion thats where the 2 stroke plays its part. you could buy and mod a used 250 for 7000 dollars and kick he crap out of the 250 f bikes in the mod clas plus its engine might last longer.

now on the stock class a 2007 or even 2006 2 stroke will eat new 250 f bikes for beakfast. and you will save thousands of dollars in the process.

hell im a better 2 stroke rider so for me it was clear buy a brand new rm 125 that was 3000 usd cheaper than a 250 f, spend 600 usd on suspension mods and springs, 650 usd for a 144 kit and keep the 1650 usd for pistons clutches and whatever i broke. the reward? the face of the riders on thumpers that i beat on my ancient machine and the fun i never had riding the thumpers.

[quote="ratonmacias":2wy13opr]
hell im a better 2 stroke rider so for me it was clear buy a brand new rm 125 that was 3000 usd cheaper than a 250 f, spend 600 usd on suspension mods and springs, 650 usd for a 144 kit and keep the 1650 usd for pistons clutches and whatever i broke. the reward? the face of the riders on thumpers that i beat on my ancient machine and the fun i never had riding the thumpers.[/quote:2wy13opr]
excellent point...

[quote="j100":ofe2ca4a]
Yamaha sponsors our team and they don't support the rule, nor will they allow us to ride them so....

On another note; not 1 factory backed kid rode them at the nationals, at that's because the manufactures won't allow their kids to ride them. Well, Kyle Regal did and I am pretty sure he is the only one and he didn't win a title on it. Malcom Stewart did, but he's not a team green rider so I am just saying the rule in general is not right.

All you guys that are 2 stroke happy so be it. I agree the 4 strokes are pricey and I feel your pain, but it doesn't change the fact that at this time the 2 strokes are out dated and we have contracts to ride the current models. With that being said, I can still voice my opinion about what I feel is right from watching it go down first hand and I stick by my opinion.[/quote:ofe2ca4a]

These statements are soooo telling of the current Big 4's views it's not even funny.

Sad, really.

[quote="Matt Fisher":2y9uamga][quote="j100":2y9uamga]
Yamaha sponsors our team and they don't support the rule, nor will they allow us to ride them so....

On another note; not 1 factory backed kid rode them at the nationals, at that's because the manufactures won't allow their kids to ride them. Well, Kyle Regal did and I am pretty sure he is the only one and he didn't win a title on it. Malcom Stewart did, but he's not a team green rider so I am just saying the rule in general is not right.

All you guys that are 2 stroke happy so be it. I agree the 4 strokes are pricey and I feel your pain, but it doesn't change the fact that at this time the 2 strokes are out dated and we have contracts to ride the current models. With that being said, I can still voice my opinion about what I feel is right from watching it go down first hand and I stick by my opinion.[/quote:2y9uamga]

These statements are soooo telling of the current Big 4's views it's not even funny.

Sad, really.[/quote:2y9uamga]

yup they dont want the "talent" riding them old non profit making bikes and beating the "Superior" 4 strokes... " title="Laughing">

I see the problem as stupid rules (like letting 250 4's run against 125 2's) forcing equipment on the hobbyist, where the hobbyist makes up the majority of the revenue and population of those in the sport. Now the hobbyist is stuck with expensive bikes, forcing more hobbyists out of the sport or forced to ride dated technologies. The track designs have drifted from stuff that makes the average guy smile to stuff that the average guys won't even go near, thanks to lazy-man bikes that lets a relatively newbie coast through a corner, whack open the throttle, and jump stuff he has no business jumping. We don't have a choice because of stupid rules. 4-strokes make great play bikes. As race machines, they're expensive, and they give acceleration opportunities to those who haven't earned it.

Nope, I don't feel for ya. The hobbyists is where this sport should thrive. And we need options, not expensive decisions dictated by the few.

[quote="crowe176":2tiz301h]1.21 jiggawatts.[/quote:2tiz301h]

I want a "Mr. Fusion".

[quote="jtomasik":2uypb40o]I see the problem as stupid rules (like letting 250 4's run against 125 2's) forcing equipment on the hobbyist, where the hobbyist makes up the majority of the revenue and population of those in the sport. Now the hobbyist is stuck with expensive bikes, forcing more hobbyists out of the sport or forced to ride dated technologies. The track designs have drifted from stuff that makes the average guy smile to stuff that the average guys won't even go near, thanks to lazy-man bikes that lets a relatively newbie coast through a corner, whack open the throttle, and jump stuff he has no business jumping. We don't have a choice because of stupid rules. 4-strokes make great play bikes. As race machines, they're expensive, and they give acceleration opportunities to those who haven't earned it.

Nope, I don't feel for ya. The hobbyists is where this sport should thrive. And we need options, not expensive decisions dictated by the few.[/quote:2uypb40o]

Hear, hear!

Or in txt tlk, +1

Remember not every one can jump from a 2t to a 4t and do good. You will always ride best in race conditions on what your used too.

[quote="jtomasik":2is4mo2o]I see the problem as stupid rules (like letting 250 4's run against 125 2's) forcing equipment on the hobbyist, where the hobbyist makes up the majority of the revenue and population of those in the sport. Now the hobbyist is stuck with expensive bikes, forcing more hobbyists out of the sport or forced to ride dated technologies. The track designs have drifted from stuff that makes the average guy smile to stuff that the average guys won't even go near, thanks to lazy-man bikes that lets a relatively newbie coast through a corner, whack open the throttle, and jump stuff he has no business jumping. We don't have a choice because of stupid rules. 4-strokes make great play bikes. As race machines, they're expensive, and they give acceleration opportunities to those who haven't earned it.

Nope, I don't feel for ya. The hobbyists is where this sport should thrive. And we need options, not expensive decisions dictated by the few.[/quote:2is4mo2o]

Where I have been anti-2 stroke for so long. I agree with you Jtomasik , 100%. I just wished there was a way to make things completely even......where neither side complains of an advantage. How to get there.....I wouldnt have the first clue. But I think 2 vs 4 will always clash. It'd be great, though I don't know how this would go, to have classes for 2 strokes and 4 strokes seperately. Then there would be no complaints from neither side......I feel like that'll be the only way!

[quote="835":vlas3gnp]Remember not every one can jump from a 2t to a 4t and do good. You will always ride best in race conditions on what your used too.[/quote:vlas3gnp]

I don't know about "used to"... I rode a 4stk. 520sx for years, then went to a 250sx (2stk) and my results picked up dramatically almost overnight.

I certainly wasn't used to the 2-stroke power delivery, but I had a LOT more fun riding it. And I was beating guys I never thought I'd beat before. It was such a huge confidence boost that I went into every weekend thinking "i can win this" instead of "who should I be chasing around in mid-pack?"

That said,
J-tom - I agree with you 100%

[quote="MX7MX":2v3ve4dl][quote="jtomasik":2v3ve4dl]I see the problem as stupid rules (like letting 250 4's run against 125 2's) forcing equipment on the hobbyist, where the hobbyist makes up the majority of the revenue and population of those in the sport. Now the hobbyist is stuck with expensive bikes, forcing more hobbyists out of the sport or forced to ride dated technologies. The track designs have drifted from stuff that makes the average guy smile to stuff that the average guys won't even go near, thanks to lazy-man bikes that lets a relatively newbie coast through a corner, whack open the throttle, and jump stuff he has no business jumping. We don't have a choice because of stupid rules. 4-strokes make great play bikes. As race machines, they're expensive, and they give acceleration opportunities to those who haven't earned it.

Nope, I don't feel for ya. The hobbyists is where this sport should thrive. And we need options, not expensive decisions dictated by the few.[/quote:2v3ve4dl]

Where I have been anti-2 stroke for so long. I agree with you Jtomasik , 100%. I just wished there was a way to make things completely even......where neither side complains of an advantage. How to get there.....I wouldnt have the first clue. But I think 2 vs 4 will always clash. It'd be great, though I don't know how this would go, to have classes for 2 strokes and 4 strokes seperately. Then there would be no complaints from neither side......I feel like that'll be the only way![/quote:2v3ve4dl]

Hell just froze over!

Both having 250cc's is as even as you can get..................very simple.