A plan to move dirt bikes out of Baltimore neighborhoods

MX Council wrote:

My words in context, just for the record: 'government does not pay for this we do ... I have no idea if this will diminish illegal...

My words in context, just for the record:

'government does not pay for this we do ... I have no idea if this will diminish illegal street riding. Not my problem. But the City has land. They are asking a private company for some solution. To me the problem is not enough legal riding places locally. I hope to make money. I hope to offer a safe place for dads and moms and kids to ride or race if they want.'

cpj36 wrote:

Seems like the problem in the streets is the only reason the city is considering this, isn't it fair to say this actually has everything to...

Seems like the problem in the streets is the only reason the city is considering this, isn't it fair to say this actually has everything to do with illegal riding?

Easy to discount those that are only upset because someone may get something the rest of us never could but what about the residents that don't want the nuisance, let alone tax burden, & simply want law enforced. The same reasons none of us have a place to ride.

im curious about a few issues often see mentioned by Baltimore residents opposed to this... Once its in operation & someone gets hurt, what would the city's liabilitiy be in all this?
If it proves to have no effect on the illegal riding, do you expect the complaints from residents opposed to noise, nuisance, etc to threaten it's existence & would the city even try to justify continued involvement?
Lastly, are city officials ever told this has nothing to do with illegal riding & that's not a concern?

motogrady wrote:

Thing is, what other options do the City have? The City may be thinking hell, we will hand out vouchers to any kid that lives in...

Thing is, what other options do the City have?
The City may be thinking hell, we will hand out vouchers to any kid that lives in the city limits.
Just to get them off the streets.
Not that that will work, but that's how they think.

As far as flak from the neighbors, if the city is behind it tough crap.
If the land is zoned commercial, or industrial, they most likely can't say a thing.
If it's residential, a variance will need to be granted, everyone in a lets say 300 yard raidis from the track is notified,
A public hearing is set, and the City will still do what they want.

Liability, if it's a private entity, the private entity is liable.
Wait till mxcouncil gets the quotes on that.

Tax burden, should be none, the City should actually get taxes from it, unless mxcouncil can get around them
by running it as a nonprofit .

As far as telling the government what's up, why he's doing it. why bother, they came to him.
It's their idea, let them figure it out.
As long as they don't put some kind of requirement on fees and discounts to city residents, who cares.

motogrady wrote:

Thing is, what other options do the City have? The City may be thinking hell, we will hand out vouchers to any kid that lives in...

Thing is, what other options do the City have?
The City may be thinking hell, we will hand out vouchers to any kid that lives in the city limits.
Just to get them off the streets.
Not that that will work, but that's how they think.

As far as flak from the neighbors, if the city is behind it tough crap.
If the land is zoned commercial, or industrial, they most likely can't say a thing.
If it's residential, a variance will need to be granted, everyone in a lets say 300 yard raidis from the track is notified,
A public hearing is set, and the City will still do what they want.

Liability, if it's a private entity, the private entity is liable.
Wait till mxcouncil gets the quotes on that.

Tax burden, should be none, the City should actually get taxes from it, unless mxcouncil can get around them
by running it as a nonprofit .

As far as telling the government what's up, why he's doing it. why bother, they came to him.
It's their idea, let them figure it out.
As long as they don't put some kind of requirement on fees and discounts to city residents, who cares.

Dirtysmile56 wrote:

Is that all we riders have to do to get the government to fold and build us a track? Start breaking laws and trashing our communities...

Is that all we riders have to do to get the government to fold and build us a track? Start breaking laws and trashing our communities? No wait, if you're white and do that you go to jail..... NFM ......

MX Council wrote:

Maryland Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation (for Professional Engineers)

APLMAN99 wrote:

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of...

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of tracks that you've talked about, I can't imagine that there are certification guidelines specifically set for motocross track constructors.........

motogrady wrote:

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works. In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction. Here, probably...

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works.

In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction.
Here, probably Baltimore City, Maryland State and at the very least EPA.
Mxcouncil will need to supply plans, and sometimes a business model on procedures he will use.
They will not tell you what you need, or whose book they follow.
You figure that out for yourself.
And each jurisdiction will probably use a different book.

And the kicker is, every one of them, every code book out there, first set of pages it will tell you, "local rules and ordinances override the contents of this code".

In my business, there are a dozen code books out there, international mechanical code, boca, acca, smanaca,
all making a living off making rules.

If I remember correctly, there is really only one code book out there designed specially for motocross track construction.
We got one here when we built the vintage track for the event we run.
Not that we really needed it, hey, it's West Virginia. By following that book, and having it approved by WV officials
It will be very, very hard for anyone to fuck with it in the future.

That is the stuff I sent to Mxcouncil years ago. Effin book cost over 600 bucks. Anyone needs one I can probably
get the name of it, it's around here somewhere.
And yes, it is very, very, detailed, to the point of being anal.
How wide the entrance road needs to be, how big a crown the road needs to have, how big the runoff for the road needs to be, how big the stones of gravel for the runoff need to be, how many trees or bushes are required in what order along this runoff need to be, at a maximum
slope of some fucking degree, taken from some point of the actual road, if the soil is of one type.
Different types of soil, different requirements.

And that's just the road to get in there.

He might even have to conduct a survey to show the existing public road is designed and able to carry the additional traffic the track will bring.

Irrigation, soil management, track width, pit area requirements, public rest rooms, it goes on, and on, and on, and on,
and on, and on, it's just crazy.

And until you satisfy every requirement, for every jurisdiction, and every engineer that works there, you ain't getting
Nothing. And every time you submit, it's another fee, another wait time for review. Some permits, they allow themselves years each time you submit.

That's how they play you. They don't want it in, it ain't gettin in.

Now, you can appeal your plans permit application when it gets denied, there is a whole process for that.
It's usually a board, with the engineers, some ordinary citizens and the permit people. Sometimes someone
or certain departments will have a legal guy there also.
You make your case, the permit people make theirs, and they vote.

The big thing Mxcouncil has going for him on this one, is Du Burns.
He's been a City official for at least 30 years.
He has the power to pick up the phone, and call the head of permits and say "this is a go".
And it will go, at the City level anyway.
That the State, the EPA and whoever else thinks they have something to do with it will stand aside is another issue altogether .

And as far as not making money, anyone that thinks a guy shouldn't, after figuring this out and actually doing it is crazy.
He deserves it. Take it as a salary if it's classified as a non profit, a fucking big salary, just like the guys from The United Way, The Red Cross, Goodwill and all the others do.

APLMAN99 wrote:

Who "certifies" track and trail building companies?

MX Council wrote:

Maryland Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation (for Professional Engineers)

APLMAN99 wrote:

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of...

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of tracks that you've talked about, I can't imagine that there are certification guidelines specifically set for motocross track constructors.........

APLMAN99 wrote:

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of...

So just a business license? There really isn't any certification involved other than being bonded and paying your licensing fee, right? Because with the lack of tracks that you've talked about, I can't imagine that there are certification guidelines specifically set for motocross track constructors.........

motogrady wrote:

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works. In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction. Here, probably...

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works.

In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction.
Here, probably Baltimore City, Maryland State and at the very least EPA.
Mxcouncil will need to supply plans, and sometimes a business model on procedures he will use.
They will not tell you what you need, or whose book they follow.
You figure that out for yourself.
And each jurisdiction will probably use a different book.

And the kicker is, every one of them, every code book out there, first set of pages it will tell you, "local rules and ordinances override the contents of this code".

In my business, there are a dozen code books out there, international mechanical code, boca, acca, smanaca,
all making a living off making rules.

If I remember correctly, there is really only one code book out there designed specially for motocross track construction.
We got one here when we built the vintage track for the event we run.
Not that we really needed it, hey, it's West Virginia. By following that book, and having it approved by WV officials
It will be very, very hard for anyone to fuck with it in the future.

That is the stuff I sent to Mxcouncil years ago. Effin book cost over 600 bucks. Anyone needs one I can probably
get the name of it, it's around here somewhere.
And yes, it is very, very, detailed, to the point of being anal.
How wide the entrance road needs to be, how big a crown the road needs to have, how big the runoff for the road needs to be, how big the stones of gravel for the runoff need to be, how many trees or bushes are required in what order along this runoff need to be, at a maximum
slope of some fucking degree, taken from some point of the actual road, if the soil is of one type.
Different types of soil, different requirements.

And that's just the road to get in there.

He might even have to conduct a survey to show the existing public road is designed and able to carry the additional traffic the track will bring.

Irrigation, soil management, track width, pit area requirements, public rest rooms, it goes on, and on, and on, and on,
and on, and on, it's just crazy.

And until you satisfy every requirement, for every jurisdiction, and every engineer that works there, you ain't getting
Nothing. And every time you submit, it's another fee, another wait time for review. Some permits, they allow themselves years each time you submit.

That's how they play you. They don't want it in, it ain't gettin in.

Now, you can appeal your plans permit application when it gets denied, there is a whole process for that.
It's usually a board, with the engineers, some ordinary citizens and the permit people. Sometimes someone
or certain departments will have a legal guy there also.
You make your case, the permit people make theirs, and they vote.

The big thing Mxcouncil has going for him on this one, is Du Burns.
He's been a City official for at least 30 years.
He has the power to pick up the phone, and call the head of permits and say "this is a go".
And it will go, at the City level anyway.
That the State, the EPA and whoever else thinks they have something to do with it will stand aside is another issue altogether .

And as far as not making money, anyone that thinks a guy shouldn't, after figuring this out and actually doing it is crazy.
He deserves it. Take it as a salary if it's classified as a non profit, a fucking big salary, just like the guys from The United Way, The Red Cross, Goodwill and all the others do.

APLMAN99 wrote:

You've just described what every developer here goes through when they build a subdivision, so it isn't exactly impossible stuff and occurs daily. Civil engineering isn't...

You've just described what every developer here goes through when they build a subdivision, so it isn't exactly impossible stuff and occurs daily. Civil engineering isn't black magic.

My point to him was that the statement he made was completely disingenuous.

motogrady wrote:

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works. In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction. Here, probably...

Ha, you guys really don't know how it works.

In this deal, a permit will be needed for each government agency who claims jurisdiction.
Here, probably Baltimore City, Maryland State and at the very least EPA.
Mxcouncil will need to supply plans, and sometimes a business model on procedures he will use.
They will not tell you what you need, or whose book they follow.
You figure that out for yourself.
And each jurisdiction will probably use a different book.

And the kicker is, every one of them, every code book out there, first set of pages it will tell you, "local rules and ordinances override the contents of this code".

In my business, there are a dozen code books out there, international mechanical code, boca, acca, smanaca,
all making a living off making rules.

If I remember correctly, there is really only one code book out there designed specially for motocross track construction.
We got one here when we built the vintage track for the event we run.
Not that we really needed it, hey, it's West Virginia. By following that book, and having it approved by WV officials
It will be very, very hard for anyone to fuck with it in the future.

That is the stuff I sent to Mxcouncil years ago. Effin book cost over 600 bucks. Anyone needs one I can probably
get the name of it, it's around here somewhere.
And yes, it is very, very, detailed, to the point of being anal.
How wide the entrance road needs to be, how big a crown the road needs to have, how big the runoff for the road needs to be, how big the stones of gravel for the runoff need to be, how many trees or bushes are required in what order along this runoff need to be, at a maximum
slope of some fucking degree, taken from some point of the actual road, if the soil is of one type.
Different types of soil, different requirements.

And that's just the road to get in there.

He might even have to conduct a survey to show the existing public road is designed and able to carry the additional traffic the track will bring.

Irrigation, soil management, track width, pit area requirements, public rest rooms, it goes on, and on, and on, and on,
and on, and on, it's just crazy.

And until you satisfy every requirement, for every jurisdiction, and every engineer that works there, you ain't getting
Nothing. And every time you submit, it's another fee, another wait time for review. Some permits, they allow themselves years each time you submit.

That's how they play you. They don't want it in, it ain't gettin in.

Now, you can appeal your plans permit application when it gets denied, there is a whole process for that.
It's usually a board, with the engineers, some ordinary citizens and the permit people. Sometimes someone
or certain departments will have a legal guy there also.
You make your case, the permit people make theirs, and they vote.

The big thing Mxcouncil has going for him on this one, is Du Burns.
He's been a City official for at least 30 years.
He has the power to pick up the phone, and call the head of permits and say "this is a go".
And it will go, at the City level anyway.
That the State, the EPA and whoever else thinks they have something to do with it will stand aside is another issue altogether .

And as far as not making money, anyone that thinks a guy shouldn't, after figuring this out and actually doing it is crazy.
He deserves it. Take it as a salary if it's classified as a non profit, a fucking big salary, just like the guys from The United Way, The Red Cross, Goodwill and all the others do.

APLMAN99 wrote:

You've just described what every developer here goes through when they build a subdivision, so it isn't exactly impossible stuff and occurs daily. Civil engineering isn't...

You've just described what every developer here goes through when they build a subdivision, so it isn't exactly impossible stuff and occurs daily. Civil engineering isn't black magic.

My point to him was that the statement he made was completely disingenuous.

motogrady wrote:

Well, I don't know what statement was made, but I disagree on the black magic thing. It can be so involved, so convoluted, so engineered it...

Well, I don't know what statement was made, but I disagree on the black magic thing.
It can be so involved, so convoluted, so engineered it gets priced right out of being practical.
So, it doesn't happen.

Now come back and tell me, how we can't have anything unsafe, anything sub standard, anything that that hasn't been approved and certified by some agency, thousands of miles away, staffed by loads of people all making 6 figures,
who move at their own pace, and the rest be damned.

No it's not black magic at all.

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

jeffro503 wrote:

BTW....OLC , I commend you and whoever else if this is a success! Hope it works.

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

Big Lenny wrote:

The truth..

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

Big Lenny wrote:

The truth..

just.another.nickname wrote:

NO, this is wrong. And a chicken shit way to look at it. The reason you see the responses you are is because NONE of the...

NO, this is wrong. And a chicken shit way to look at it.

The reason you see the responses you are is because NONE of the fucking problems are addressed. The MAIN person who seems personally involved even stated he doesn't give a care about it either. Those are HIS words.

Spartacus wrote:

I'm guessing with 344 homicides 2015, people doing wheelies on dirt bikes isn't a huge priority for Baltimore police. Not fair at all but reality usually...

I'm guessing with 344 homicides 2015, people doing wheelies on dirt bikes isn't a huge priority for Baltimore police.

Not fair at all but reality usually isn't.

The solution to the root of the problem isn't an easy fix.

MX Council wrote:

...THUS the reason for coming to this moto community. Got any ideas before I attend the meeting?

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

APLMAN99 wrote:

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country. We see white criminals as...

Unfortunately this thread turned into a microcosm of the relationship between law enforcement, society, and blacks across much of our country.

We see white criminals as individuals who commit a crime, we see blacks as criminals.

Crumprobert113 wrote:

As soon as they ban Lenny again then 80% of the shit threads like this will go away.