Why no 250 2 strokes in the 250 shootouts?

yamadog43
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Edited Date/Time 1/21/2016 11:53am
I always wondered why I thought it'd be pretty cool if they added them into the shootouts.
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ML512
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1/20/2016 11:35am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 4:50pm
yamadog43 wrote:
I always wondered why I thought it'd be pretty cool if they added them into the shootouts.
A. We wouldn't have the co-operation of all the manufactures then.

B. I'm not doing it because I don't want to be burned at the stake when I rate four-strokes above the beloved two-stroke... Laughing


EDIT: I've added what I'll try doing going forward into my post on the second page.
hvaughn88
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1/20/2016 11:36am
They don't race each other in pro's, correct?
VET176
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1/20/2016 11:57am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 11:57am
hvaughn88 wrote:
They don't race each other in pro's, correct?
True. But there is no excuse for omitting them from shootouts down here. (Aus/NZ).

The Shop

yamadog43
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1/20/2016 12:01pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
They don't race each other in pro's, correct?
Nope only armatures but still I think it'd be cool to see where they stack up against the new bikes.
1/20/2016 12:04pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
They don't race each other in pro's, correct?
They do in Canada Tongue
MxKing809
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1/20/2016 12:11pm
Who are the shootouts for? The AMA pros who can't race apple to apples, or the amateur consumer who can race 250 v. 250?

Just sayin.....
peelout
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1/20/2016 12:23pm
yamadog43 wrote:
I always wondered why I thought it'd be pretty cool if they added them into the shootouts.
ML512 wrote:
A. We wouldn't have the co-operation of all the manufactures then. B. I'm not doing it because I don't want to be burned at the stake...
A. We wouldn't have the co-operation of all the manufactures then.

B. I'm not doing it because I don't want to be burned at the stake when I rate four-strokes above the beloved two-stroke... Laughing


EDIT: I've added what I'll try doing going forward into my post on the second page.
while i understand this... i think it's silly not to include the 250 two-strokes in the 250 shootout. the shootout is geared towards us, the consumers... at our local races we are able to run a 250 two-stroke against the four-strokes... so a shoot-out with both would be beneficial.

again, i understand why but i think the argument "why not" is a much stronger one
cslacker
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1/20/2016 12:35pm
ML512 wrote:
A. We wouldn't have the co-operation of all the manufactures then. B. I'm not doing it because I don't want to be burned at the stake...
A. We wouldn't have the co-operation of all the manufactures then.

B. I'm not doing it because I don't want to be burned at the stake when I rate four-strokes above the beloved two-stroke... Laughing


EDIT: I've added what I'll try doing going forward into my post on the second page.
1) Are you saying that Kawi, Honda and Suzuki wouldn't give you bikes for the shootout if you included all 250s or just that not all manufacturers make them? It feels to me like you are being unfair to the companies that make them with this logic and are rewarding those that don't by giving no publicity to bikes that many people are still wanting, buying and racing.

2) I don't think anyone would care if you rated a 250f higher. (Well, maybe some would...) People have opinions and it would be nice to have a valid comparison between all of the bikes eligible for the racing we all do. I think using the lap time data etc. that you used for the most recent test would be very beneficial.

ML512
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1/20/2016 12:41pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 12:43pm
cslacker wrote:
1) Are you saying that Kawi, Honda and Suzuki wouldn't give you bikes for the shootout if you included all 250s or just that not all...
1) Are you saying that Kawi, Honda and Suzuki wouldn't give you bikes for the shootout if you included all 250s or just that not all manufacturers make them? It feels to me like you are being unfair to the companies that make them with this logic and are rewarding those that don't by giving no publicity to bikes that many people are still wanting, buying and racing.

2) I don't think anyone would care if you rated a 250f higher. (Well, maybe some would...) People have opinions and it would be nice to have a valid comparison between all of the bikes eligible for the racing we all do. I think using the lap time data etc. that you used for the most recent test would be very beneficial.

There would be issues with manufacture's participating... from the ones that make them... and maybe even the ones that do...

And I can't go out to buy nine bikes to test.

We do First Impression test on two-strokes as well, but I spend more time testing the bikes that are selling better and have more aftermarket support, four-strokes. It's can also be hard to get two-stroke test bikes from the manufactures long-term, as there are very few in the test fleet.

And I still really don't want to be burned at the stake for giving them last...
TailSoHard
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1/20/2016 2:35pm
ML512 wrote:
There would be issues with manufacture's participating... from the ones that make them... and maybe even the ones that do... And I can't go out to...
There would be issues with manufacture's participating... from the ones that make them... and maybe even the ones that do...

And I can't go out to buy nine bikes to test.

We do First Impression test on two-strokes as well, but I spend more time testing the bikes that are selling better and have more aftermarket support, four-strokes. It's can also be hard to get two-stroke test bikes from the manufactures long-term, as there are very few in the test fleet.

And I still really don't want to be burned at the stake for giving them last...
Just a thought...

What about a head-to-head shootout after the main one is done? You could just test the YZ250 against the YZ250f, the KTM 250SX against the 250SX-F, etc... That way people could just use deductive reasoning to place the two-strokes in the lineup themselves. It would keep the manufacturers happy, and it would give us one more resource to use before buying. For example, say the KX250f came in first and the YZ250f came in second. You could then test the YZ against the YZF and use that test to say "well, the YZF was better than the YZ", which we could use to assume that the KXF is also better than the YZ. Maybe it wouldn't be the most unbiased/accurate way to present the information, but it would add a little more breadth to the testing and would be a tad more informative than simply testing 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4...

But I guess that doesn't solve the issue of having to buy more bikes... Like I said, just a thought.

And I don't think you'd be burned at the stake... Lightly charred maybe, but not burned Evil

1/20/2016 3:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 3:07pm
Add 250 twostroke and feature one fast B amateur test rider who can articulate thoughts into sentences, since they are a legal and competitive option for aspiring Loretta's caliber riders. Theyre the highest level before you have to go against factory bikes and paid riders in A. This simulates the actual intended purpose of the bikes, and represents the mindset of the potential buyers, and a fairly large percentage chunk of said buyer's market. This would reflect in site hits.

But that'd make too much damned sense. Party on, Wayne.
kiwifan
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1/20/2016 3:25pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
They don't race each other in pro's, correct?
VET176 wrote:
True. But there is no excuse for omitting them from shootouts down here. (Aus/NZ).
what is the percentage of 2 strokes vs 4 strokes in 250 class in AUS/NZ? From what I have seen in results form races in those two countries there are not a lot of 2 strokes racing the 4 strokes. But then I haven't been to that side of the world in years so club races might be different.

IceMan446
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1/20/2016 3:35pm
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
1/20/2016 3:40pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout??? No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare...
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
They are 100% legal and prevelant thanks to the AMA, the main sanctioning body in the largest off-road motorcycle market in the solar system. According to them, they are similar, similar enough go compete head to head on the track, so why not in a shootout
1/20/2016 3:48pm
They are also legal for pro racing in Canada among other countries. There were rumors last year of MXGP making some significant changes to that end in the next couple years.

Pros don't buy bikes based on shootout findings. The shootouts are for everyday shmucks like us who do most of the bike buying. We can race 250 vs 250 in amateur MX and off road, so IMO... they should be evaluated next to 250 four strokes in the shootouts.
IceMan446
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1/20/2016 4:00pm
They are 100% legal and prevelant thanks to the AMA, the main sanctioning body in the largest off-road motorcycle market in the solar system. According to...
They are 100% legal and prevelant thanks to the AMA, the main sanctioning body in the largest off-road motorcycle market in the solar system. According to them, they are similar, similar enough go compete head to head on the track, so why not in a shootout
Hmmm....Ok.

What does any of that have to do with the similarity of the bikes?

They are completely different.

Why not compare them to like bikes? Its very hard to compare an apple to an orange.
just James
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1/20/2016 4:02pm
TailSoHard wrote:
Just a thought... What about a head-to-head shootout after the main one is done? You could just test the YZ250 against the YZ250f, the KTM 250SX...
Just a thought...

What about a head-to-head shootout after the main one is done? You could just test the YZ250 against the YZ250f, the KTM 250SX against the 250SX-F, etc... That way people could just use deductive reasoning to place the two-strokes in the lineup themselves. It would keep the manufacturers happy, and it would give us one more resource to use before buying. For example, say the KX250f came in first and the YZ250f came in second. You could then test the YZ against the YZF and use that test to say "well, the YZF was better than the YZ", which we could use to assume that the KXF is also better than the YZ. Maybe it wouldn't be the most unbiased/accurate way to present the information, but it would add a little more breadth to the testing and would be a tad more informative than simply testing 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4...

But I guess that doesn't solve the issue of having to buy more bikes... Like I said, just a thought.

And I don't think you'd be burned at the stake... Lightly charred maybe, but not burned Evil

I would bet that even this would be very much frowned upon by the royal family.
I, like you, would like to see the two strokes included. Even though a certain moderator may prefer to ride four strokes, I doubt that he would assert that they are faster than the two strokes, in totally stock form. Maybe I am wrong, but I guess we won't get to know for sure.
kiwifan
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1/20/2016 4:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 4:10pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout??? No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare...
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
ML512
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1/20/2016 4:11pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout??? No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare...
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
kiwifan wrote:
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright...
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
I think the YZ would win, but I'll see what I can put together...
kiwifan
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1/20/2016 4:13pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout??? No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare...
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
kiwifan wrote:
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright...
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
ML512 wrote:
I think the YZ would win, but I'll see what I can put together...
You are the man, thanks ML :-)
ML512
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1/20/2016 4:15pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout??? No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare...
Why don't they just have a two stroke specific shootout???

No need to add them to the four stroke shootout. The shootout is there to compare bikes that are similar.

Not two completely different types of bikes.
kiwifan wrote:
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright...
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
ML512 wrote:
I think the YZ would win, but I'll see what I can put together...
Well that didn't work... No KTMs available... I don't think I know anyone with a stocker that's nearby either. But, I'll put it on the list for later this year, as KTM/Husky will have an updated model coming out.
ML512
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1/20/2016 4:17pm
kiwifan wrote:
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright...
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
ML512 wrote:
I think the YZ would win, but I'll see what I can put together...
kiwifan wrote:
You are the man, thanks ML :-)
I'll try for YZ vs KTM vs Husky vs TM later this year.
tempura
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1/20/2016 4:18pm
Look, the manufactures want to keep their beloved four stroke separate from the two stroke as much as possible. They pull the strings, The reviewers tow the line and try not to upset them. That's how the industry works.
The reviewer is in a position of having to get the bikes loaned, and they don't want to rock the boat by asking for two strokes to add to the review..they know that will cause frowned faces among the powers that be. The reviewers make their living from promoting things, and so need a constant flow of items to promote. They can't rock the boat too much or they'll end up with nothing to review/promote.
just James
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1/20/2016 4:24pm
tempura wrote:
Look, the manufactures want to keep their beloved four stroke separate from the two stroke as much as possible. They pull the strings, The reviewers tow...
Look, the manufactures want to keep their beloved four stroke separate from the two stroke as much as possible. They pull the strings, The reviewers tow the line and try not to upset them. That's how the industry works.
The reviewer is in a position of having to get the bikes loaned, and they don't want to rock the boat by asking for two strokes to add to the review..they know that will cause frowned faces among the powers that be. The reviewers make their living from promoting things, and so need a constant flow of items to promote. They can't rock the boat too much or they'll end up with nothing to review/promote.
Ding Ding Ding! We have someone who gets it.
kiwifan
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1/20/2016 4:28pm
ML512 wrote:
I'll try for YZ vs KTM vs Husky vs TM later this year.
Can you ask Service Honda too? You never know until you try!
OldYZRider1
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1/20/2016 4:39pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 4:40pm
AMA amateur racing allows equal displacement racing with two strokes and four strokes. Amateurs might like to know which is the best platform for them hence the reason for a shootout. Pro's don't need a shoot out to determine what they ride; they're gonna ride what they're being paid to ride.
IceMan446
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1/20/2016 4:41pm
kiwifan wrote:
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright...
I would love to see a TM vs KTM vs Service Honda AF vs Husky vs YZ (even Sherco or Beta..although they might not be outright MX bikes i.e. with lights?) 250 2 stroke shootout, I think the TM would win :-)

I see no need to compare to 4 stroke 250's.
To me, that would be ideal if you are in the market for a two stroke.

There are a lot more models than just the KTM and Yamaha. And the offroad models are a whole other shootout, which would be cool to see.

I'm with you on keeping them separate. No need to co-mingle the two shootouts.
1/20/2016 4:42pm
AMA amateur racing allows equal displacement racing with two strokes and four strokes. Amateurs might like to know which is the best platform for them hence...
AMA amateur racing allows equal displacement racing with two strokes and four strokes. Amateurs might like to know which is the best platform for them hence the reason for a shootout. Pro's don't need a shoot out to determine what they ride; they're gonna ride what they're being paid to ride.
That's what I've been saying but people can't seem to grasp that. There aren't too many casual buyers as there are weekend racers so compare what is on the same gate.
ML512
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1/20/2016 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2016 4:53pm
I'll place all my thoughts in one last post here to answer this question going forward.

1. Including two-strokes in Vital MX's 250 Shootout?

No, not in the foreseeable future. With six bikes already, it's absolute pain-in-the-ass to do them properly and I'm still trying to figure out how we can improve upon that. Adding another four bikes (TM, YZ, KTM, Husky Two-strokes) would really screw up how much time we're putting on each model and not do any of it justice in my opinion. I'm also there to test the bikes that directly compete against each other in all forms of racing, not in certain places. I want to do the best job we can there.

2. How about a 250 two-stroke Shootout?

Sure! I can make that happen for the 2017 model range (late 2016 or first thing of 2017). 2016 won't be do-able at this point, I can't get my hands on the needed bikes. I'd like to do this with the YZ, KTM, Husky, and TM. I won't add a bunch of unnecessary bikes and I don't believe in adding Service AF bikes because of their cost and the fact that the suspension is used from four-stroke settings.

3. What about some sort of 250 two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison?

Possible, I could pit one brand against itself. Maybe whoever fairs best overall in the 250F and 250T will go against it's brethren. I'll get through the Shootouts before I make any promises on this one.

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