Used bike: Title vs bill of sale?

Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 10/5/2015 8:03am
10/5/2015 8:03am
resetjet wrote:
You will probably find it has never been titled. The vin may come up empty. Its a dirt bike, bill of sale is fine, take pic...
You will probably find it has never been titled. The vin may come up empty. Its a dirt bike, bill of sale is fine, take pic of guys license and go riding. If you plan on plating it, you can still plate a bike with no title. You just have to go to a state that does not require it, then transfer it to your home state later. If you don't plan on plating it, who cares about a title, why pay the tax to put it in your name?????
Exactly, I bought my KTM new and never did anything with the MSO. I know its not stolen, that's all that really matters. If you suspect something could be stolen and you want it anyway, make the person vouch for it. I had a bike pass through my hands one time that I refused to offer a bill of sale on. The guy threw a fit and I said, "Look, I bought this in good faith, but I have no idea about the history of this bike, I'm not legally going to vouch for it." He bought it anyway.
GeorgiePorgie 10/5/2015 8:24am
10/5/2015 8:24am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 8:27am
Check the vin. Any shop can run them. Any PD can run them.

Cover your ass. Cover your ass. Cover your ass.

Don't be like my dad and trust a smooth sounding individual just to get hosed down the road.

Meet at police station at a decent hour. (Before 6pm) and see if they have time and a notary to acknowledge details of the transaction.



@micha the "no blood on my hands" transactions just make it worse for everyone, and promotes the theft and resale of bikes. It's a free country do what you want.

Hell its just easier these just to put a down payment on a new unit, and insure it with the money you're gonna fork over for a used bike. Atleast then you know it's your bike and there is nothing wrong with it.
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Jaybird67k 10/5/2015 8:45am
10/5/2015 8:45am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 8:49am
Weeks381fan wrote:
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and...
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and be done with it. Why would you take anything from a dirtbike into the DMV? You can't license the damn thing! I might have bought 5 bikes in my life that had titles. I don't even ask for one anymore. The only way this could be beneficial is if you are suspicious that the guy still owes money on it through a bank.
I agree. Titles on dirt bikes is retarded. I have been buying new and used bikes all my life and anyone that asked for a title on a used dirt bike I just let them know I can tell they haven't been around very long on the scene. lol.

Oh, and I never pay sales tax and I usually purchase new bikes under farm use.

Jason
ns503
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ns503 10/5/2015 8:52am
10/5/2015 8:52am
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to prove that the bike in the back of the truck is yours. Title is proof.

The Shop

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Jaybird67k
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Jaybird67k 10/5/2015 8:54am
10/5/2015 8:54am
ns503 wrote:
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to...
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to prove that the bike in the back of the truck is yours. Title is proof.
No, they have to prove it isn't. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Jason
mx 219
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mx 219 10/5/2015 9:06am
10/5/2015 9:06am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 9:06am
I guess my last post got completely overlooked. Don't be stupid. If a bike doesn't have an MSO don't buy it.


Anyone can make a bill of sale. That is not the proper paperwork for ownership for a motorcycle. The person selling the bike may not have stolen the bike, but what about the guy he bought it from, or the guy before him, on and on.

Or what if the original owner just defaulted on the loan and sold it for some cash?

Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 10/5/2015 11:54am
10/5/2015 11:54am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 11:56am
The title is the only document of ownership. The MSO is a the birth certificate of the bike and can get handed around to numerous "owners" never having documented any one of them. The bill of sale is a legally binding contract that proves a transaction took place - it will hold up in court to not only prove you didn't steal a bike, but to also recover your money from the seller.

The bill of sale can be used to obtain a bonded title. The MSO can also be used to obtain a title, but don't kid yourself if you think people at the DMV aren't going to look at your weathered 1985 Honda MSO and wonder why you, [cough]the original owner[/cough], are just now bringing it in. Especially if you are under 30 years old Smile

The real problem here is that these are offroad machines. They don't conform to federal safety standards, emission standards, they won't be plated and don't face mandatory insurance laws. You will be hard pressed to have a cop standing by you, running your VIN to verify the history if its stolen or not. Well, unless you are in Baltimore.

P.S. Also the price comes into play. Around here, your average 15-20 year old bike for $1500 or less. Its not going to have a MSO or title. And who cares. On the other hand, a newer bike for $4000 or more, there is a little more on the line. Maybe you can get pickier.
JZ125
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JZ125 10/5/2015 12:07pm
10/5/2015 12:07pm
My friends bike was just stolen. I will NEVER buy a bike without a title, end of discussion. Ultimate reason, cops knock on your door to pick up you and the stolen property you have in your possession, penultimate reason, someone steals it from you, what are you going to do then?

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CrGuy2T 10/5/2015 12:10pm
10/5/2015 12:10pm
You can always call the auto crimes task force before purchase. If it is clear you then can apply for a bonded title.
Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 10/5/2015 12:26pm
10/5/2015 12:26pm
JZ125 wrote:
My friends bike was just stolen. I will NEVER buy a bike without a title, end of discussion. Ultimate reason, cops knock on your door to...
My friends bike was just stolen. I will NEVER buy a bike without a title, end of discussion. Ultimate reason, cops knock on your door to pick up you and the stolen property you have in your possession, penultimate reason, someone steals it from you, what are you going to do then?

I would show my insurance agent the picture of the bike that got stolen, with the bill of sale, and with the police report.

Just use your head kids.
brianq
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brianq 10/5/2015 3:17pm
10/5/2015 3:17pm
resetjet wrote:
You will probably find it has never been titled. The vin may come up empty. Its a dirt bike, bill of sale is fine, take pic...
You will probably find it has never been titled. The vin may come up empty. Its a dirt bike, bill of sale is fine, take pic of guys license and go riding. If you plan on plating it, you can still plate a bike with no title. You just have to go to a state that does not require it, then transfer it to your home state later. If you don't plan on plating it, who cares about a title, why pay the tax to put it in your name?????
don't plan on riding on road just wanna make sure if the police ever had a reason to pull me over or they get called i won't get the bike impounded and won't be able to recover it (i mean it was only 200 bucks but still)
brianq
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brianq 10/5/2015 5:20pm
10/5/2015 5:20pm
so is should be alright with a bill of sale?
mx 219
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mx 219 10/5/2015 5:37pm
10/5/2015 5:37pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 5:37pm
Micahdogg wrote:
The title is the only document of ownership. The MSO is a the birth certificate of the bike and can get handed around to numerous "owners"...
The title is the only document of ownership. The MSO is a the birth certificate of the bike and can get handed around to numerous "owners" never having documented any one of them. The bill of sale is a legally binding contract that proves a transaction took place - it will hold up in court to not only prove you didn't steal a bike, but to also recover your money from the seller.

The bill of sale can be used to obtain a bonded title. The MSO can also be used to obtain a title, but don't kid yourself if you think people at the DMV aren't going to look at your weathered 1985 Honda MSO and wonder why you, [cough]the original owner[/cough], are just now bringing it in. Especially if you are under 30 years old Smile

The real problem here is that these are offroad machines. They don't conform to federal safety standards, emission standards, they won't be plated and don't face mandatory insurance laws. You will be hard pressed to have a cop standing by you, running your VIN to verify the history if its stolen or not. Well, unless you are in Baltimore.

P.S. Also the price comes into play. Around here, your average 15-20 year old bike for $1500 or less. Its not going to have a MSO or title. And who cares. On the other hand, a newer bike for $4000 or more, there is a little more on the line. Maybe you can get pickier.
gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this one. MSO holds way more weight in my opinion than a "Bill of Sale" / Piece of paper.
GeorgiePorgie 10/5/2015 5:41pm
10/5/2015 5:41pm
Micahdogg wrote:
I would show my insurance agent the picture of the bike that got stolen, with the bill of sale, and with the police report. Just use...
I would show my insurance agent the picture of the bike that got stolen, with the bill of sale, and with the police report.

Just use your head kids.
That doesn't work. I know that by experience. Numerous photos and a bill of sale with the previous owner there to verify. Chief of police. Still wouldn't release a recovered 85 of my dads. Then it was stolen from the impound. So we got screwed again all because we didn't transfer title into our name, because "it's a dirtbike" who cares. Wrong. Got burned. Won't ever get burned again. But many others will.
ns503
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ns503 10/5/2015 5:50pm
10/5/2015 5:50pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2015 5:53pm
ns503 wrote:
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to...
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to prove that the bike in the back of the truck is yours. Title is proof.
Jaybird67k wrote:
No, they have to prove it isn't. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Jason
It also works on the other side. Would you be happy if the guy who stole your untitled bike got stopped by police with your bike in the back of his truck but he was let go because he had no way to prove it wasn't his? Possession isn't the best way to go in that case, eh?
brianq
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brianq 10/5/2015 6:05pm
10/5/2015 6:05pm
ns503 wrote:
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to...
Some times and in some places & circumstances, you could be in a tight spot if you get stopped by the po-po & are asked to prove that the bike in the back of the truck is yours. Title is proof.
Jaybird67k wrote:
No, they have to prove it isn't. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Jason
ns503 wrote:
It also works on the other side. Would you be happy if the guy who stole your untitled bike got stopped by police with your bike...
It also works on the other side. Would you be happy if the guy who stole your untitled bike got stopped by police with your bike in the back of his truck but he was let go because he had no way to prove it wasn't his? Possession isn't the best way to go in that case, eh?
will a bill of sell be ok if i was to be stopped by a officer because the bike i have has no papers but the vin is clean
tmauto769 10/5/2015 8:17pm
10/5/2015 8:17pm
Weeks381fan wrote:
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and...
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and be done with it. Why would you take anything from a dirtbike into the DMV? You can't license the damn thing! I might have bought 5 bikes in my life that had titles. I don't even ask for one anymore. The only way this could be beneficial is if you are suspicious that the guy still owes money on it through a bank.
Jaybird67k wrote:
I agree. Titles on dirt bikes is retarded. I have been buying new and used bikes all my life and anyone that asked for a title...
I agree. Titles on dirt bikes is retarded. I have been buying new and used bikes all my life and anyone that asked for a title on a used dirt bike I just let them know I can tell they haven't been around very long on the scene. lol.

Oh, and I never pay sales tax and I usually purchase new bikes under farm use.

Jason
Yeah, long ago titles didn't matter, but we don't live in the 70's and 80's anymore. I won't buy one without a title or an MSO now a days, for a few reasons mentioned in this post already. A couple thousand dollar bike maybe if I were interested in one of those, but not a newer bike. If there isn't paper work there is a reason, stolen, lien, lost it? either way I want no part of it, and I have been on the "scene" as you put it for awhile. I am not so sure a "bill of sale" will cut it with insurance now either. oh, and good to know your sticking it to the man by using your bike as a farm implement. lol
ctbale
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ctbale 3/31/2016 11:56pm
3/31/2016 11:56pm
so should rider lawnmowers have titles? just a way for states to collect sales tax, nuthing else. how it should work is the mso should be the safety net. when you buy a bike new, keep the mso in a safe place, then when you sell it, create a bill of sale and tie the bike and the mso with its unique number together on the Bill of Sale. if someone rips off your bike, he isint going to come and rip off your mso as well is he?

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mx317
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mx317 4/1/2016 5:20am
4/1/2016 5:20am
If the owner has the MSO or title, you can be reasonably sure it's not stolen or has a lien on it. You sure don't want to buy a bike and have some finance company come get it.
Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 4/1/2016 6:34am
4/1/2016 6:34am
ctbale wrote:
so should rider lawnmowers have titles? just a way for states to collect sales tax, nuthing else. how it should work is the mso should be...
so should rider lawnmowers have titles? just a way for states to collect sales tax, nuthing else. how it should work is the mso should be the safety net. when you buy a bike new, keep the mso in a safe place, then when you sell it, create a bill of sale and tie the bike and the mso with its unique number together on the Bill of Sale. if someone rips off your bike, he isint going to come and rip off your mso as well is he?
The bike doesn't have your name on it and the MSO doesn't either. So you are back to arguing with a judge. Just as you are perfectly legal to do with bill of sale. The title has your name on it - so you don't have to argue with anyone. The cops recover your property and return it to you. Anything short of a title is just extra fodder for your argument, which is why I don't care too much about MSO's. A bill of sale has always been good enough for me.

P.S. A more effective argument for a judge would be to go old school and engrave your DL# somewhere into the frame on the bike. The police used to suggest that practice back in the 70's and 80's. That would be a pretty solid case to a judge vs. waving around an MSO..
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Bultaco 4/1/2016 6:54am
4/1/2016 6:54am Edited Date/Time 4/1/2016 7:03am
Just to add another states rules to the mix...Vermont does not even issue titles for cars older 15 years. Or for motorcycles less than 300cc. Bill of Sale is all that is needed.

In 46 years of riding and owning dirt bikes, I've never had a title on any. Or an MSO, unless I bought it new. (Very few of those). But as other have said we live in a very suspicious effed up world today.
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potatoflake 4/1/2016 7:00am
4/1/2016 7:00am
Weeks381fan wrote:
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and...
A title for an MX bike is retarded. We have never had to have them and who the heck cares. Get a bill of sale and be done with it. Why would you take anything from a dirtbike into the DMV? You can't license the damn thing! I might have bought 5 bikes in my life that had titles. I don't even ask for one anymore. The only way this could be beneficial is if you are suspicious that the guy still owes money on it through a bank.
You'll be singing another tune if she was to come up stolen
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Flesh206 4/1/2016 7:02am
4/1/2016 7:02am
A bill of sale in Ohio that isn't a government piece of paper is basically a sale receipt written by the "owner". Which is worthless in my opinion and will reduce the resale value. In Ohio it's title or no dice for me.
mx317
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mx317 4/1/2016 7:21am
4/1/2016 7:21am Edited Date/Time 4/1/2016 7:23am
Micahdogg wrote:
The bike doesn't have your name on it and the MSO doesn't either. So you are back to arguing with a judge. Just as you are...
The bike doesn't have your name on it and the MSO doesn't either. So you are back to arguing with a judge. Just as you are perfectly legal to do with bill of sale. The title has your name on it - so you don't have to argue with anyone. The cops recover your property and return it to you. Anything short of a title is just extra fodder for your argument, which is why I don't care too much about MSO's. A bill of sale has always been good enough for me.

P.S. A more effective argument for a judge would be to go old school and engrave your DL# somewhere into the frame on the bike. The police used to suggest that practice back in the 70's and 80's. That would be a pretty solid case to a judge vs. waving around an MSO..
Agree 100% that a title is better, but with an MSO you at least know it's most likely not stolen or has a lien. I stamp my race number on all my stuff to help identify it just in case
Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 4/1/2016 7:31am
4/1/2016 7:31am
Flesh206 wrote:
A bill of sale in Ohio that isn't a government piece of paper is basically a sale receipt written by the "owner". Which is worthless in...
A bill of sale in Ohio that isn't a government piece of paper is basically a sale receipt written by the "owner". Which is worthless in my opinion and will reduce the resale value. In Ohio it's title or no dice for me.
Thankfully it's not worthless in a court of law, regardless if its a govt issued document or not.
ctbale
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ctbale 4/1/2016 7:34am
4/1/2016 7:34am
What started this was now in WA state and purchased a used 2003 yz250 2 stroke and the guy signed over his title to me. its in his name and to get into mine were talkin maybe $200 taxes and fees, screw that. I was raised in MN and thats nutz for WA to get a piece of every sale after the first (new) sale. the title with his name on it will be proof I didnt steal it to the next owner. I wouldnt mind a reasonable $15 fee for them to print me a new title but the sales tax is whats a rip off, like I posted before I am not paying sales tax on a used rider lawnmower either
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 4/1/2016 7:34am
4/1/2016 7:34am
Dang this is an old thread but I actually dealt with this just yesterday. Texas issues titles. The seller of the bike said that in his 30 years he never dealt with a title. And I've bought a few bikes now and have always gotten the title and when I sold the bike, I've always been asked about the title. So my experience is that people want the title here in Texas. I thought it was going to be a deal killer yesterday, but the guy showed up with the bike and title and it was a done deal.

Just because you get the physical title, doesn't mean that you have to title it in your name and pay taxes on it. It's just in your possession and you can have the peace of mind that it won't be repossessed or reported stolen by a former owner. My fear is that I would get pulled over with a bike I legitimately paid for but was stolen previously and I'd be serving the time for it. And a bike just isn't worth that risk.
ctbale
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ctbale 4/1/2016 7:43am
4/1/2016 7:43am
yea bills of sales are a joke also, last winter purchased a used Polaris snowmobile in Mn. in mn the DNR controls snowmobiles so I got the wallet sized DNR card with his name on it and the tunnel SN. went to the DNR office, would not transfer to my name with no BOS. Left the DNR office went to grab breakfast at a restaurant and an hour later was back at the DNR with my very nice looking bill of sale ..... what a joke.
ctbale
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ctbale 4/1/2016 7:46am
4/1/2016 7:46am
most states dont do titles, the ones that do should rip off people with a sales tax, I guess thats my point
Flesh206
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Flesh206 4/1/2016 7:51am
4/1/2016 7:51am
Flesh206 wrote:
A bill of sale in Ohio that isn't a government piece of paper is basically a sale receipt written by the "owner". Which is worthless in...
A bill of sale in Ohio that isn't a government piece of paper is basically a sale receipt written by the "owner". Which is worthless in my opinion and will reduce the resale value. In Ohio it's title or no dice for me.
Micahdogg wrote:
Thankfully it's not worthless in a court of law, regardless if its a govt issued document or not.
You must not be from Ohio then.

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