Do race organizers listen to safety concerns?

The Rock
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Edited Date/Time 7/8/2015 3:04am
In the four wheel word at the moment this is a topic that is receiving attention. Reason I post this stuff is to see if there are any parallels to SX/MX and/or any ideas we can glean from other forms of motorsports to make our sport safer.

Catch fences of the bottom of downhill sections might be something to consider or be more mindful of where people can stand. As we saw at Washougal really bad things happen when a bike hits somebody. I saw this up close and personal at Hangtown in the mid 90s after a start and it left a indelible impression on me. This big guy got cleaned out from behind so never saw it coming. He was hurt enough that they stretchered him out.
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7/6/2015 12:40pm
believe it or not, rope was used mostly when i raced at most tracks and that was the 90s! until a young rider was killed as he whisky throttled through some and it internally decapitated him.
The Rock
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7/6/2015 1:20pm
In the 70s in the midwest USA most tracks use snow fencing (thin wooden stakes held together with wire) with only one track Winchester Indiana using this nylon fencing that was trick.
MX45
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7/6/2015 1:30pm
Rock, you are very safety conscious, I applaud that, but what do you hope to achieve by posting to the vital void?

Do you have any connections to the industry? If you are looking to make real change, I'd encourage you to talk to the promoters. Surely you have MX Sports email?

Have you thought about compiling all the issues as you see them and proposing solutions in a well presented plan?

I have many thoughts of my own, but havn't had the time to present them well enough. Let me know if you'd like to hear some of my ideas.
The Rock
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7/6/2015 2:09pm
MX45-Thanks for the questions. I am hoping to get feedback/get discussions started and for sure would like to hear your ideas.

I love the sport more than I am safety conscious to be clear. My rationale is the more we can do to make things safer (NOT SAFE for those of you reading challenged) the more participants we keep in our sport as well as attract more newbies.

The more ideas and input we get the better IMHO.

The Shop

ebers
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7/6/2015 2:22pm
As of late, I think there should be some sort of seat belt to keep riders attached to the bike.
Regis
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7/6/2015 3:14pm
I have heard that the majority of top riders have tried to get the powers that be to make chest protectors mandatory. Not just roost guards either but the kind Hallman made with the additional arm pieces that Velcro on.



Regis
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7/6/2015 3:14pm
Hehehe ... I kid, I kid. Hope you are well Rock! Keep bringing awareness. It's very commendable and all good.
Seamorbutts
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7/6/2015 3:24pm
Bike jumps are evil.
hillbilly
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7/6/2015 3:39pm
in my long time I found most are reactive rather than proactive.

I learned to keep myself safe and to hell with everyone else.

the most important part of the track is no on the track but beside it.

always walk the track in the morning,not to look at jumps and such but what is along side,where you can push,get out of shape and have runoff to gather it in,

likewise,note where not to push because of track furniture.

i hate quads.
bobojim
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7/6/2015 8:54pm
Having worked in an organisation that was previously killing people and is now achieving very good safety outcomes, I can say that you need a safety culture to achieve substantial change. I don't see this in the organisers / leaders of the sport. Increasing safety is actually possible once the culture has changed. This is because a genuine safety culture will:
1. Actively monitor safety performance - and provide transparent reports.
2. Not accept the status quo
3. Actively Identify safety concerns via internal reporting and internal reviews of hazards, near misses and actual injuries.
4. listen when other parties raise safety concerns
5. Have active initiatives to improve safety
5. Monitor and report on the outcome of initiatives

If you rely on static/prescriptive rules, nothing changes, and they don't adapt to changes e.g. 450's, or stadium changes.
7/6/2015 10:47pm
bobojim wrote:
Having worked in an organisation that was previously killing people and is now achieving very good safety outcomes, I can say that you need a safety...
Having worked in an organisation that was previously killing people and is now achieving very good safety outcomes, I can say that you need a safety culture to achieve substantial change. I don't see this in the organisers / leaders of the sport. Increasing safety is actually possible once the culture has changed. This is because a genuine safety culture will:
1. Actively monitor safety performance - and provide transparent reports.
2. Not accept the status quo
3. Actively Identify safety concerns via internal reporting and internal reviews of hazards, near misses and actual injuries.
4. listen when other parties raise safety concerns
5. Have active initiatives to improve safety
5. Monitor and report on the outcome of initiatives

If you rely on static/prescriptive rules, nothing changes, and they don't adapt to changes e.g. 450's, or stadium changes.
As an Oil Field worker I've seen that this can help, but we DON'T want OSHA or anything like that in our sport. It is a dangerous sport but people aren't getting hurt more now then they where 10-15 years ago and the jumps are bigger and bikes are faster. Helmets, boots and everything are better now. Best thing to do is, if you see a problemproblem and have a why of fixing it, make a product and sale it. Look at all the knee and neck brace companies that are out there.
dre3101
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7/6/2015 11:04pm
I was in the tunnel by parking lot B when two riders scrubbed back wheels in mid air over the launchpad at Red Bud this weekend. The photos show one of the bikes, which somersaulted over the fence into the crowd. Thankfully, no one was injured in the crowd, and I hope that both riders were ok.

There was really nothing that the event promoters could have done in this instance regarding canoe rider safety. You simply must keep your eyes peeled and be ready to move.





The Rock
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7/6/2015 11:47pm
Regis wrote:
I have heard that the majority of top riders have tried to get the powers that be to make chest protectors mandatory. Not just roost guards...
I have heard that the majority of top riders have tried to get the powers that be to make chest protectors mandatory. Not just roost guards either but the kind Hallman made with the additional arm pieces that Velcro on.



You heard correct (MXGP 2016) but what few know is having Whoop De Chews on the front of your chest protector is mandatory with specific font type and size. Smile

Appreciate the kudos but after watching this sport change over the last forty years (and not all for the better) I am over same s^&t different day mode our sport has been in to a large degree. I like what bobojim posted especially the part about culture needing to change. Speaking of.......

racingfortheson-What color is the sky in your world? I would like to visit your planet...the one where more people aren't being injured in greater numbers.

dre3101-Another scrub success story. Thanks for the pics and I'm glad no spectators were injured.
The Rock
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7/7/2015 12:03am
bobojim wrote:
Having worked in an organisation that was previously killing people and is now achieving very good safety outcomes, I can say that you need a safety...
Having worked in an organisation that was previously killing people and is now achieving very good safety outcomes, I can say that you need a safety culture to achieve substantial change. I don't see this in the organisers / leaders of the sport. Increasing safety is actually possible once the culture has changed. This is because a genuine safety culture will:
1. Actively monitor safety performance - and provide transparent reports.
2. Not accept the status quo
3. Actively Identify safety concerns via internal reporting and internal reviews of hazards, near misses and actual injuries.
4. listen when other parties raise safety concerns
5. Have active initiatives to improve safety
5. Monitor and report on the outcome of initiatives

If you rely on static/prescriptive rules, nothing changes, and they don't adapt to changes e.g. 450's, or stadium changes.
Thanks for joining the thread and for providing this perspective. You hit the nail on the head about nothing changes if the safety culture doesn't change. All of your points are excellent but my favorites are 2 and 3.

Accepting status quo is our biggest liability IMHO as that means we're just waiting for the government or insurance goons to swoop down on us. We have the opportunity to regulate ourselves in an attempt to lower injury rate/reduce severity of injury. It will help our cause long term if we are proactive.

Or we can just keep telling ourselves that MX is dangerous and there is really nothing we can do so why even bother especially since it is the Internet that makes it seem like there are more injuries?

Did I dream it or did Asterisk start collecting data on injuries within the last year or so?
I think there should also be a database on bike and vehicle thefts in our sport particularly on what alarm was utilized, how was the theft pulled off, etc and have this information shared.

Knowledge is power.
7/7/2015 5:19am
Who was the guy at Washougal, year before last who got hit by Collier's bike and about died? Bruce something?
hillbilly
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7/7/2015 5:35am
at lazy river one morning practice I was pulled over watching Josh Lichtle and Ryan Mills go thru the rhythm whoops beside start area.

they had haybales lining the track which are really more dangerous than anything . Auston Albers dad was standing with his back to traffic,one of those riders got out of shape and would have saved it but the haybales kicked the bike out.

It hit Albers and cleaned him out,compound tib,fib and shoulder,shoulder blade. He went into shock and very nearly died.

haybales suck.
DC
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7/7/2015 6:05am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2015 6:40am
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety concerns you are talking about or of any inability for competitors or teams or even fans to come express their opinions to MX Sports officials, AMA officials or national event promoters, and for us to listen and discuss. We (and Feld) pay for Asterisk to be at every event, we have initialized and continue to support our concussion program, we have eradicated as many perceived hazards as we can, like introducing the wheels-on-the-ground flags, adding flagging managers for each section and group of flaggers, and will continue to do so. But accidents (like Bruce Barnes getting hit while standing next to the track at the ski jump at Washougal or these two guys scrubbing and touching at RedBud, or Garth Milan getting hit by Phil Nicoletti's brake-less, bouncing bike at High Point) can and will happen. Building another forum thread to imply that no one is listening is kind of redundant, unfair and not as helpful as you may think. It's the forum version of crying wolf when you do this over and over again, and then imply that we aren't doing me enough. Gravity and force and the evolution of performance and rider technique (see scrubs) are tough opponents that we accept and attempt to contain every day. We may not agree with every suggestion, but we listen, and we try very hard to make motocross as safe as possible. We live and work within a culture of safety, we don't just post about it here.

DC@mxsports.com

DC
MX Sports
Darryl916
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7/7/2015 6:26am
nytsmaC
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7/7/2015 7:06am
Ing
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7/7/2015 7:09am
I know, I know. Just move the fences back 100yrds. and issue binoculars at the gate.
MxKing809
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7/7/2015 7:25am
DC wrote:
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety...
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety concerns you are talking about or of any inability for competitors or teams or even fans to come express their opinions to MX Sports officials, AMA officials or national event promoters, and for us to listen and discuss. We (and Feld) pay for Asterisk to be at every event, we have initialized and continue to support our concussion program, we have eradicated as many perceived hazards as we can, like introducing the wheels-on-the-ground flags, adding flagging managers for each section and group of flaggers, and will continue to do so. But accidents (like Bruce Barnes getting hit while standing next to the track at the ski jump at Washougal or these two guys scrubbing and touching at RedBud, or Garth Milan getting hit by Phil Nicoletti's brake-less, bouncing bike at High Point) can and will happen. Building another forum thread to imply that no one is listening is kind of redundant, unfair and not as helpful as you may think. It's the forum version of crying wolf when you do this over and over again, and then imply that we aren't doing me enough. Gravity and force and the evolution of performance and rider technique (see scrubs) are tough opponents that we accept and attempt to contain every day. We may not agree with every suggestion, but we listen, and we try very hard to make motocross as safe as possible. We live and work within a culture of safety, we don't just post about it here.

DC@mxsports.com

DC
MX Sports


jndmx
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7/7/2015 7:36am
Wow Rock, doesn't seem like you have any trouble being heard.....

Michael "Rock" Rigdon, Blue Buffalo/Slater Skins/Yamaha head media liaison and technical adviser was seen here contemplating some "insider knowledge" from RacerX Illustrated's/Allied Sports', Davey Coombs.


By the way "liaison" is spelled wrong on your blog, you should at least get your title correct.
clmartin22
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7/7/2015 7:43am
As a promoter and track manager I can promise you that we never have an event that we don't discuss rider and fan safety. But its a double edged sword, you can't always protect both groups. We do our best to make changes to obstacles/jumps that seem to cause problems over and over again. We try limit fan access to areas that can be more prone to a bike leaving the track. But as DC said we can't protect everyone all the time. Sometime you can't fix stupid, and you guys know what I mean.

I recently worked a regional event where we had to pull two groups of riders aside and flat out lay the law down about jumping on yellows/medic flags. Riders meetings have gotten to be a joke, people don't listen, and then they complain about issues that we specifically go over in the meeting. If we say the yellow flag is wheels to the ground, that doesn't mean scrub the double is ok! It means wheels to the ground.

Track owners, promoters, officials can't do it all, and as much as some of you want to believe that its all about the $$$, well I can promise you for me its not. I do what I do because I love the sport, and you can ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you the same thing.
Mr. Info
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7/7/2015 7:45am
Its not easy building safety into a race track for motorcycles when riders either push or exceed their limits. Not one track owner has not listened to the people who ride or watch the races at their track. You will never have a accident free track in any sport where men, women or children operate a vessel of any type where there is a motor involved and they feed the input but sometimes can't control the output.
Rider safety is always first and foremost from local to National Level. But no matter how safe it is things happen. But first and foremost rider and spectator input is always needed at any level.
hillbilly
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7/7/2015 8:10am
DC,

what I see at redbud the last 2yrs is something I like very much.

The moving back of banners and stakes about a watertruck width from the yellow track edge markers.

It should be a requirement that a lane about 5ft wide be left open and clear on each side of the track as runoff area for a rider swapping or out of shape to have a chance to get under control.

I know some places it isnt possible.


7/7/2015 10:02am
DC wrote:
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety...
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety concerns you are talking about or of any inability for competitors or teams or even fans to come express their opinions to MX Sports officials, AMA officials or national event promoters, and for us to listen and discuss. We (and Feld) pay for Asterisk to be at every event, we have initialized and continue to support our concussion program, we have eradicated as many perceived hazards as we can, like introducing the wheels-on-the-ground flags, adding flagging managers for each section and group of flaggers, and will continue to do so. But accidents (like Bruce Barnes getting hit while standing next to the track at the ski jump at Washougal or these two guys scrubbing and touching at RedBud, or Garth Milan getting hit by Phil Nicoletti's brake-less, bouncing bike at High Point) can and will happen. Building another forum thread to imply that no one is listening is kind of redundant, unfair and not as helpful as you may think. It's the forum version of crying wolf when you do this over and over again, and then imply that we aren't doing me enough. Gravity and force and the evolution of performance and rider technique (see scrubs) are tough opponents that we accept and attempt to contain every day. We may not agree with every suggestion, but we listen, and we try very hard to make motocross as safe as possible. We live and work within a culture of safety, we don't just post about it here.

DC@mxsports.com

DC
MX Sports
Pinch

FreshTopEnd
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7/7/2015 11:01am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2015 11:27am
I think generally, yes, depending on the nature of the concern. The bigger problem IMO is that folks don't always weigh risk well and almost all safety decisions involve trade offs against other issues that some people feel are just as important, so you've got the can't please everyone factor as well (think about the BS here about track prep and no blue groove races in the US [purportedly] versus elimination of dust. A dusty track is an enormous safety issue (maybe not as well appreciated in this era as when I started going to races), but that's the trade off.

Impressions can be skewed, too, because folks pay attention when something bad happens, but not when something bad doesn't happen because safety measures have been implemented. The most safety conscious, proactive promoter will still get crucified if something wrong happens.

This seems like one of the harsher seasons in awhile on the riders regardless of what series they are in, but it seems more like a rider error year than a "why was that there" year.
7/7/2015 11:25am
more importantly, do riders return to tracks that they have safety concerns?
The Rock
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7/7/2015 11:47am Edited Date/Time 7/8/2015 1:10am
DC wrote:
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety...
Rock, you have my email address and use it every time you want to come to the races. I don't know what lack of organizational safety concerns you are talking about or of any inability for competitors or teams or even fans to come express their opinions to MX Sports officials, AMA officials or national event promoters, and for us to listen and discuss. We (and Feld) pay for Asterisk to be at every event, we have initialized and continue to support our concussion program, we have eradicated as many perceived hazards as we can, like introducing the wheels-on-the-ground flags, adding flagging managers for each section and group of flaggers, and will continue to do so. But accidents (like Bruce Barnes getting hit while standing next to the track at the ski jump at Washougal or these two guys scrubbing and touching at RedBud, or Garth Milan getting hit by Phil Nicoletti's brake-less, bouncing bike at High Point) can and will happen. Building another forum thread to imply that no one is listening is kind of redundant, unfair and not as helpful as you may think. It's the forum version of crying wolf when you do this over and over again, and then imply that we aren't doing me enough. Gravity and force and the evolution of performance and rider technique (see scrubs) are tough opponents that we accept and attempt to contain every day. We may not agree with every suggestion, but we listen, and we try very hard to make motocross as safe as possible. We live and work within a culture of safety, we don't just post about it here.

DC@mxsports.com

DC
MX Sports
Perception is more important than reality and for this reason I am really glad you checked in on this thread DC. First we need to do a reset please. My OP opens with "In the four wheel word at the moment this is a topic that is receiving attention. Reason I post this stuff is to see if there are any parallels to SX/MX and/or any ideas we can glean from other forms of motorsports to make our sport safer."

Regarding " Building another forum thread to imply that no one is listening is kind of redundant, unfair and not as helpful as you may think." this is a 100% incorrect assumption. You know I don't mince words and I am not bashful. If I wanted to take you or anyone to task about safety I wouldn't have implied it I would have made it clear but this isn't the case.

To elaborate on my culture of safety point I am speaking more to the comments I read online IE. MX is dangerous, you can't make it safe, we don't have more injuries it is the Internet etc.

The parallel from the article to our sport I see is catch fencing. Based on the instances you've shared and re3101's Red Bud story and pics my off the top of my head suggestions are:

1) Increase safety zone area by jumps where bikes have gone into the crowd.
2) Examine where additional catch fencing could be utilized.
3) Have areas that are off limits on the first lap for spectators then after the pack has thinned allow them to get closer.
4) Have age limits in certain spectator areas where the risk of a bike leaving the track is greater. Adults can take a licking better than a five year kid.

I do have one question DC: Does Asterisk get details now from racers on what safety equipment they were wearing, the obstacle they got hurt on (if applicable) and input on what they could have done differently if anything? This would be helpful in coming to a decision on if chest/back protection should become mandatory like it is in MXGP next year.

BTW hadn't seen that picture from Hangtown before. I like it!

FTE-Very well said This seems like one of the harsher seasons in awhile on then riders regardless of what series they are in, but it seems more like a rider error year than a "why was that there" year. Odd thing is coming into 2015 we had the shortest injured list in USA in a LONG time.
FreshTopEnd
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7/7/2015 12:14pm
"Odd thing is coming into 2015 we had the shortest injured list in USA in a LONG time. "

Maybe in the real world people are in fact making the effort to make it safer and it's paying off.

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