Sad state of moto?

h&m_cycle
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Steubenville, OH, USA
6/28/2015 8:04pm
Top guys were in shape in the old days, 500 c.c. class was no picnic
Marty Smith would be a factory rider now...








burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
6/28/2015 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 6/28/2015 8:41pm
RMT wrote:
I see these reasons talked about many times on here about the expense of the sport. This is my take on your points. Not trying to...
I see these reasons talked about many times on here about the expense of the sport. This is my take on your points. Not trying to argue, your opinion is valid, but just my thoughts.

The four strokes pretty much had taken over by 05. The motorcycle industry reached it's peak in 06 and the US economy took a dive in late 08. So, to me, the so called 4 stroke takeover was in full effect before anything bad had happened in the economy. Also, the 4 stroke takeover was driven by the consumers. Yamaha brought out the YZF and everybody purchased one. Look back at the OEM share in the competition category in the early 00's and you can track it very clearly. Yamaha had a hold until the CRF came out. Suzuki and Kawasaki floundered. In 03 and 04 you couldn't give an RM250 away and by 06 no dealers were ordering them. This was not driven by the OEM's. Pro racing was a different animal and Yamaha and Honda have always had the HP in that arena. You can still buy a great two stroke MX bike today and they are not really that much cheaper than the 4 strokes. Only hardcore racers put much more than 60-70 hours on a bike and usually sell it before it was ever rebuilt. So if you took averages, I would almost bet for the largest percentage of owners, the 4 stroke with just oil changes was cheaper than the 2 stroke which had a piston or two put in it. This is a racer forum, so guys don't need to tell me how they blew up 5 250f's and rebuild their engines every other month. You are the minority.

We can now see almost all Supercross, AMA nationals, MXGP, British Nationals and Canadian Nationals on TV as well as Arenacross, GNCC's and even AMA flattrack. Never could you see so much Off-road motorcycle racing on TV before now.

Promoters have always had a reputation for being greedy, this is nothing new. Not saying they are, but like the rest of the population, a few bad ones ruin it for all the good ones.

Bottom line is life is more expensive than it was 15 years ago. People didn't have $250 phone plans for the whole family, $100 a month for internet and $200 a month cable plans back then. How many of us have multiple $1000+ TV's in our home and buy a new computer every 3-4 years? That is a lot of expense that could go to other activities and in years past, did. Also, $20,000 UTV's outsell MX bikes by a big margin. I'm not so sure all the problems with MX are related to $8000 new bikes.
You've made some valid points, even though you have a little bit of rose colored glasses on.

Sure, everyone (including me) wanted a new 4-stroke around 2000ish and were excited about them. They were awesome, new, and the bike to have. They started winning and all the factories put their riders on them. No one really thought about it at first, or thought about racing costs, privateer expenses, economy, or any of that, since everyone was kind of riding the 4s wave of coolness. Then the 2-strokes started to disappear out of the Pros. It began to become evident, and I think everyone expected some type of rule change to compensate for the displacement advantage of the 4s (kind of like they did around 2000 to give parity for the 4s before finally settling on 450cc).

In 2006 there was a rumor that the a 150 2s would be allowed to run in the 250F class and a larger displacement 2s allowed for the 450F class. But there was an alliance formed of some promoters (actually one promoter), AMA, and industry insiders and it was voted by them to leave the rules like they were and not give any parity to the 2s. This landmark decision and power play in the sport of MX not only sealed the fate of the 2s from Pro competition, but it was also solidified a new effort by the AMA to hand over complete control of its decisions and autonomy to the OEMs. The AMA now had a promoter/ monitor to make sure it happened too. This settled the issue once and for all that 4s would be the only raceable bike in the any AMA dirt bike competition. With this new vote, there was a concerted effort to eradicate the 2-stroke from any form of competition or even be spoken about seriously by any of the alliance members or their affiliates.

Ten years later, the economy has continued to take a downturn and the sport of MX has changed into an expensive traveling circus type program owned by a single promoter. And yes, racing expenses for a 4s are more expensive than ever, especially more than a 2s. Ask Pro Circuit about the cost differences. Media coverage has also changed. Some may say for the better, but no longer is it as single-focused as it used to be. The promoter controls what happens to the media outlets and how it is delivered.

Dissident
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6/28/2015 8:26pm
the sport is dead.

JMR1976
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6/28/2015 8:33pm
This sport needs more rich people!

The Shop

newmann
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6/28/2015 8:47pm
Dissident wrote:
the sport is dead.

Naaahhhh, Hoagie man said more people than ever are riding dirtbikes today.

Dissident
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6/28/2015 9:01pm
JMR1976 wrote:
This sport needs more rich people!
indeed, but the newer people with money these days aren't blue collar..they're white collar professionals and very elitist/classist.

their kids go to private schools and they make sure they aren't friends with common blue collar people, who are the fabric of this sport.

the rich who are into motorsports are into road racing, shifter karts and SCCA road racing and whatnot

mark911
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Ashville, OH, USA
6/29/2015 12:56am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2015 6:24am
Post moved to "Local MX Racing Turnout"
6/29/2015 6:08am
unknownmxr wrote:
When the 4 stroke revolution started, all the old guys said it would be the death of mx, and they were right, sort of. The 4...
When the 4 stroke revolution started, all the old guys said it would be the death of mx, and they were right, sort of.
The 4 stroke is more maintenance than a 2t, but the real cost of buying and maintaining a mx bike is the suspension.
The reality is that you have to drive 5 hours to a track, and that there are no oppportunities to ride around on a local practice track after work, for those who have a real job anyway. The racket of a 4t is a problem, but the real issue is urban sprawl.
steed 2.0 wrote:
[i]"all the old guys said it would be the death of mx"[/i] I love this kind of rhetoric, dig up some old AMA & GP footage...
"all the old guys said it would be the death of mx"
I love this kind of rhetoric, dig up some old AMA & GP footage and compare it with now

"the real cost of buying and maintaining a mx bike is the suspension"
really? some oil & fork seals

"The reality is that you have to drive 5 hours to a track"
nope 5 min, If I drive 5 hours I'm in Paris France Smile
You do it to yourself.
6/29/2015 7:21am Edited Date/Time 6/29/2015 7:26am
Dont underestimate any of your so called "trailriders" coming out of the GNCC series being competitive at a mx national. The old saying that mud is...
Dont underestimate any of your so called "trailriders" coming out of the GNCC series being competitive at a mx national. The old saying that mud is the great equalizer, I would put money on it that if all of the top off-road guys were on the line yesterday, you would have several in the top 10 and at least one or two in tbe top 5.
I grew up riding trails, and I'm not trying to be cocky, but my first time at the track I was faster than over half the riders there. I'm not trying to claim my shit doesn't stink or anything, I'm just saying trail riding and enduro, especially on a 125, develops critical skills you can't learn just by riding at the track. Even Robbie Bell goes put to the trails behind my house to train.
http://youtu.be/n0I52kiT-wc
newmann
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6/29/2015 8:08am
Dont underestimate any of your so called "trailriders" coming out of the GNCC series being competitive at a mx national. The old saying that mud is...
Dont underestimate any of your so called "trailriders" coming out of the GNCC series being competitive at a mx national. The old saying that mud is the great equalizer, I would put money on it that if all of the top off-road guys were on the line yesterday, you would have several in the top 10 and at least one or two in tbe top 5.
I grew up riding trails, and I'm not trying to be cocky, but my first time at the track I was faster than over half the...
I grew up riding trails, and I'm not trying to be cocky, but my first time at the track I was faster than over half the riders there. I'm not trying to claim my shit doesn't stink or anything, I'm just saying trail riding and enduro, especially on a 125, develops critical skills you can't learn just by riding at the track. Even Robbie Bell goes put to the trails behind my house to train.
http://youtu.be/n0I52kiT-wc
The woods guys here locally have always kicked ass on the mx track, usually my ass! Lots of seat time in constantly changing terrain and obstacles that you don't get on a moto track. Good stuff no doubt and always a treat when one of them shows up and puts in a good ride on the big stage.
RMT
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6/29/2015 10:08am
burn1986 wrote:
You've made some valid points, even though you have a little bit of rose colored glasses on. Sure, everyone (including me) wanted a new 4-stroke around...
You've made some valid points, even though you have a little bit of rose colored glasses on.

Sure, everyone (including me) wanted a new 4-stroke around 2000ish and were excited about them. They were awesome, new, and the bike to have. They started winning and all the factories put their riders on them. No one really thought about it at first, or thought about racing costs, privateer expenses, economy, or any of that, since everyone was kind of riding the 4s wave of coolness. Then the 2-strokes started to disappear out of the Pros. It began to become evident, and I think everyone expected some type of rule change to compensate for the displacement advantage of the 4s (kind of like they did around 2000 to give parity for the 4s before finally settling on 450cc).

In 2006 there was a rumor that the a 150 2s would be allowed to run in the 250F class and a larger displacement 2s allowed for the 450F class. But there was an alliance formed of some promoters (actually one promoter), AMA, and industry insiders and it was voted by them to leave the rules like they were and not give any parity to the 2s. This landmark decision and power play in the sport of MX not only sealed the fate of the 2s from Pro competition, but it was also solidified a new effort by the AMA to hand over complete control of its decisions and autonomy to the OEMs. The AMA now had a promoter/ monitor to make sure it happened too. This settled the issue once and for all that 4s would be the only raceable bike in the any AMA dirt bike competition. With this new vote, there was a concerted effort to eradicate the 2-stroke from any form of competition or even be spoken about seriously by any of the alliance members or their affiliates.

Ten years later, the economy has continued to take a downturn and the sport of MX has changed into an expensive traveling circus type program owned by a single promoter. And yes, racing expenses for a 4s are more expensive than ever, especially more than a 2s. Ask Pro Circuit about the cost differences. Media coverage has also changed. Some may say for the better, but no longer is it as single-focused as it used to be. The promoter controls what happens to the media outlets and how it is delivered.

I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If the bill at Pro Circuit is so high, they need to cut down to two riders and save some money.

I may be looking at things from a different perspective, but that's all I have. I see real numbers and not just what people think. A very smart man once told me, he could not remember how many turkeys he shot while hunting, but he could tell you about every single one he missed.

Also, from an OEM standpoint, you have to understand that they have more information about things than the general public and to lead in sales, they need to be on the cutting edge of things. In the late 90's, rumors were that 2 strokes were going to be banned sometime down the road, including off-road bikes. Some OEM's started planning for this and designed and built 4 stroke replacements, some didn't. I know you didn't say this, but lots of people have said that the 4 strokes were built for more revenue due to more expensive parts an more frequent rebuilds. If anyone has ever worked with a Japanese company, they would understand how crazy a statement that is. Pride is much more important in Japanese culture than a little additional income. Think about the millions of dollars spent on MX racing from the Japanese and what kind of ROI do you think they get other than pride? NONE.

If cost is such a big determining factor in the demise in MX, why are KTM's selling so well? They are not the cheapest bike around. Why has $20,000 plus UTV sales shot through the roof? The change in our sport is more about changes in lifestyle than the price of bikes or lack of tracks. Our sport is battling with other activities for the same money and has lost some ground as of late. These other activities are not really cheap either. Anyone who has a kid playing hockey can tell you about how much it costs. I spend over $5000 a year for my 11 y.o. daughter to be on an all star cheerleading team and that doesn't include the 3-4 travel competitions we attend. That's cheaper than chasing a LL title on a 85, but still not cheap.
MotoMan12345
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Alpine, UT, USA
6/29/2015 10:18am
Did you not see the conditions? Who would have picked Martin to win? Who would have picked Barcia to win by 20 seconds? Anything happens in mud
Underdog999
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6/29/2015 10:26am
newmann wrote:
The premier motocross class in the premier series of the whole world and some unknown trail rider comes in and kicks ass almost cracking the top...
The premier motocross class in the premier series of the whole world and some unknown trail rider comes in and kicks ass almost cracking the top ten on a practice bike. What does it all mean?
GrapeApe wrote:
It means that you don't pay much attention to motocross. That unknown trail rider raced at LL's from the time he was on 65's all the...
It means that you don't pay much attention to motocross. That unknown trail rider raced at LL's from the time he was on 65's all the way through the A class. He raced a half dozen nationals last year, and almost got points at Budds. Throw in the mud and his background and I don't think it's a big surprise that he got 16th. Maybe you should celebrate his ride on the smoker instead of using it to indict the sport of motocross?
Exactly, GrapeApe.

Unknown? The guy is hardly unknown if you follow motocross and racing at all.
kawasa84
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6/29/2015 10:35am Edited Date/Time 6/29/2015 10:35am
Don't know about moto being dead, however I was at a premier track in North TX (Sunday) putting in laps and I will tell you. Around 40% of the riders were 25 and older. Some, alot older. (I'm 49, & that sucks).
There were some real young kids, (about 10 or so) and a few teenaged kids.
My point is that the youth that used to ride compared to now is dwindling. If it wasn't for the 25 and older crowd I'm not sure some tracks would stay in business.
And that isn't good.
Sidecar
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GB
6/29/2015 2:02pm
hillbilly wrote:
i cant figure out what the fuck this thread is about,
I think..... THINK

A man on a 2 stroke raced in a race for 4 strokes in America where the riders are faster/not as fast as they are in Europe???Said man was once an mx prospect at LL, witch must be massive because DD is big, EE is massive and for heavens sake don't google FF...... Then at some point said man raced in some trees thus forever affecting his mx ability to the occasional dual sport outing..... Clear as mud witch is the only reason said man got his old fashioned 2 stroke out of the woods to play with the 4 strokes...... I think.
IceMan446
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6/29/2015 4:57pm
27 bikes finished the second moto.

There is some perspective on his finish.
DonM
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6/29/2015 5:02pm
yakrider wrote:
Not sure if you are being serious or not, but the MXGPs are the premier series (in terms of rider talent and depth of field) in...
Not sure if you are being serious or not, but the MXGPs are the premier series (in terms of rider talent and depth of field) in motocross. Anyone who let their pride down for a moment would see that.
And the troll returns....
burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
6/29/2015 5:46pm
RMT wrote:
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If...
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If the bill at Pro Circuit is so high, they need to cut down to two riders and save some money.

I may be looking at things from a different perspective, but that's all I have. I see real numbers and not just what people think. A very smart man once told me, he could not remember how many turkeys he shot while hunting, but he could tell you about every single one he missed.

Also, from an OEM standpoint, you have to understand that they have more information about things than the general public and to lead in sales, they need to be on the cutting edge of things. In the late 90's, rumors were that 2 strokes were going to be banned sometime down the road, including off-road bikes. Some OEM's started planning for this and designed and built 4 stroke replacements, some didn't. I know you didn't say this, but lots of people have said that the 4 strokes were built for more revenue due to more expensive parts an more frequent rebuilds. If anyone has ever worked with a Japanese company, they would understand how crazy a statement that is. Pride is much more important in Japanese culture than a little additional income. Think about the millions of dollars spent on MX racing from the Japanese and what kind of ROI do you think they get other than pride? NONE.

If cost is such a big determining factor in the demise in MX, why are KTM's selling so well? They are not the cheapest bike around. Why has $20,000 plus UTV sales shot through the roof? The change in our sport is more about changes in lifestyle than the price of bikes or lack of tracks. Our sport is battling with other activities for the same money and has lost some ground as of late. These other activities are not really cheap either. Anyone who has a kid playing hockey can tell you about how much it costs. I spend over $5000 a year for my 11 y.o. daughter to be on an all star cheerleading team and that doesn't include the 3-4 travel competitions we attend. That's cheaper than chasing a LL title on a 85, but still not cheap.
Again, well said. There are a few things that I disagree on slightly, but nothing major.

I've been pretty negative about the sport since 06, but there are some positive glimpses here and there. Hopefully I can focus more on those.
RMT
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6/29/2015 6:43pm
burn1986 wrote:
Again, well said. There are a few things that I disagree on slightly, but nothing major. I've been pretty negative about the sport since 06, but...
Again, well said. There are a few things that I disagree on slightly, but nothing major.

I've been pretty negative about the sport since 06, but there are some positive glimpses here and there. Hopefully I can focus more on those.
Ya know what, I don't see your views as negative, more that from a person who's passion runs deep in this sport. Even if MX is losing some people, at least the ones left are deep into it! Moto on my brother.
yakrider
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6/29/2015 7:06pm
DonM wrote:
And the troll returns....
We can argue the merits of my claims, mate.
Big Daddy
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Acworth, GA, USA
6/29/2015 7:24pm
Dissident wrote:
the sport is dead.

newmann wrote:
Naaahhhh, Hoagie man said more people than ever are riding dirtbikes today.

Probably so. However, they must all be riding old stuff because with the exception of last year, dirt bike sales have been tanking (as well as the industry overall). This year to year comparison chart from the MIC (Motorcycle Industry Council) shows "the growth".



OldPro277
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Avonmore, PA, USA
6/29/2015 7:31pm
Dissident wrote:
the sport is dead.

newmann wrote:
Naaahhhh, Hoagie man said more people than ever are riding dirtbikes today.

Joe, Hoagie is obviously a kid,that has no clue Laughing We were just talking about this at work last Saturday,when we were young (70's) just about every able-bodied kid in the neighborhood had a dirtbike of some type. Not everybody raced ,but damn near everybody rode. All it takes is to compare sales figures from that late 70's era to say the last 4 years. Hell I think Hodaka sold more Super Rats one year than Yamaha has sold 250F's AND 450F's the past 2 years. Just a hunch, but Im sure someone will post the figures.......anyway, Im with you,the sport at the grassroots level is in big trouble
DonM
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6/29/2015 7:50pm
DonM wrote:
And the troll returns....
yakrider wrote:
We can argue the merits of my claims, mate.
Get back to me when you have facts...so far you are just regurgitating the same biased BS opinion as The Source who was the previous king troll...
Comparing the two series is difficult at best with neither better than the other and with probably the same level of depth...but you feel the need to bait and troll just to see what type of reaction you can get...it gets old...
tempura
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JP
6/29/2015 7:52pm
burn1986 wrote:
You've made some valid points, even though you have a little bit of rose colored glasses on. Sure, everyone (including me) wanted a new 4-stroke around...
You've made some valid points, even though you have a little bit of rose colored glasses on.

Sure, everyone (including me) wanted a new 4-stroke around 2000ish and were excited about them. They were awesome, new, and the bike to have. They started winning and all the factories put their riders on them. No one really thought about it at first, or thought about racing costs, privateer expenses, economy, or any of that, since everyone was kind of riding the 4s wave of coolness. Then the 2-strokes started to disappear out of the Pros. It began to become evident, and I think everyone expected some type of rule change to compensate for the displacement advantage of the 4s (kind of like they did around 2000 to give parity for the 4s before finally settling on 450cc).

In 2006 there was a rumor that the a 150 2s would be allowed to run in the 250F class and a larger displacement 2s allowed for the 450F class. But there was an alliance formed of some promoters (actually one promoter), AMA, and industry insiders and it was voted by them to leave the rules like they were and not give any parity to the 2s. This landmark decision and power play in the sport of MX not only sealed the fate of the 2s from Pro competition, but it was also solidified a new effort by the AMA to hand over complete control of its decisions and autonomy to the OEMs. The AMA now had a promoter/ monitor to make sure it happened too. This settled the issue once and for all that 4s would be the only raceable bike in the any AMA dirt bike competition. With this new vote, there was a concerted effort to eradicate the 2-stroke from any form of competition or even be spoken about seriously by any of the alliance members or their affiliates.

Ten years later, the economy has continued to take a downturn and the sport of MX has changed into an expensive traveling circus type program owned by a single promoter. And yes, racing expenses for a 4s are more expensive than ever, especially more than a 2s. Ask Pro Circuit about the cost differences. Media coverage has also changed. Some may say for the better, but no longer is it as single-focused as it used to be. The promoter controls what happens to the media outlets and how it is delivered.

RMT wrote:
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If...
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If the bill at Pro Circuit is so high, they need to cut down to two riders and save some money.

I may be looking at things from a different perspective, but that's all I have. I see real numbers and not just what people think. A very smart man once told me, he could not remember how many turkeys he shot while hunting, but he could tell you about every single one he missed.

Also, from an OEM standpoint, you have to understand that they have more information about things than the general public and to lead in sales, they need to be on the cutting edge of things. In the late 90's, rumors were that 2 strokes were going to be banned sometime down the road, including off-road bikes. Some OEM's started planning for this and designed and built 4 stroke replacements, some didn't. I know you didn't say this, but lots of people have said that the 4 strokes were built for more revenue due to more expensive parts an more frequent rebuilds. If anyone has ever worked with a Japanese company, they would understand how crazy a statement that is. Pride is much more important in Japanese culture than a little additional income. Think about the millions of dollars spent on MX racing from the Japanese and what kind of ROI do you think they get other than pride? NONE.

If cost is such a big determining factor in the demise in MX, why are KTM's selling so well? They are not the cheapest bike around. Why has $20,000 plus UTV sales shot through the roof? The change in our sport is more about changes in lifestyle than the price of bikes or lack of tracks. Our sport is battling with other activities for the same money and has lost some ground as of late. These other activities are not really cheap either. Anyone who has a kid playing hockey can tell you about how much it costs. I spend over $5000 a year for my 11 y.o. daughter to be on an all star cheerleading team and that doesn't include the 3-4 travel competitions we attend. That's cheaper than chasing a LL title on a 85, but still not cheap.
Your statement about Japan and Japanese companies, how pride is more important than additional income or profits is a bit of a myth. I've lived a run my own business in Japan for years, and can tell you first hand, increasing profits and additional income comes before pride in Japan.
Japanese are the most stubborn, greedy and narrow minded business people I've ever met.
Motodave15
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Temple City, CA, USA
6/29/2015 8:16pm
RMT wrote:
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If...
I just don't correlate professional racing with local racing. I see them as two completely different animals. Pro race team budgets are what they are. If the bill at Pro Circuit is so high, they need to cut down to two riders and save some money.

I may be looking at things from a different perspective, but that's all I have. I see real numbers and not just what people think. A very smart man once told me, he could not remember how many turkeys he shot while hunting, but he could tell you about every single one he missed.

Also, from an OEM standpoint, you have to understand that they have more information about things than the general public and to lead in sales, they need to be on the cutting edge of things. In the late 90's, rumors were that 2 strokes were going to be banned sometime down the road, including off-road bikes. Some OEM's started planning for this and designed and built 4 stroke replacements, some didn't. I know you didn't say this, but lots of people have said that the 4 strokes were built for more revenue due to more expensive parts an more frequent rebuilds. If anyone has ever worked with a Japanese company, they would understand how crazy a statement that is. Pride is much more important in Japanese culture than a little additional income. Think about the millions of dollars spent on MX racing from the Japanese and what kind of ROI do you think they get other than pride? NONE.

If cost is such a big determining factor in the demise in MX, why are KTM's selling so well? They are not the cheapest bike around. Why has $20,000 plus UTV sales shot through the roof? The change in our sport is more about changes in lifestyle than the price of bikes or lack of tracks. Our sport is battling with other activities for the same money and has lost some ground as of late. These other activities are not really cheap either. Anyone who has a kid playing hockey can tell you about how much it costs. I spend over $5000 a year for my 11 y.o. daughter to be on an all star cheerleading team and that doesn't include the 3-4 travel competitions we attend. That's cheaper than chasing a LL title on a 85, but still not cheap.
Ha a kid playing hockey..

I'm a adult and playing in two leagues

Ice- 400$ per season (16 games + playoffs)
Roller- 137$ per season (10 games+ playoffs)
usa hockey membership- 40$ per year

this isnt including sticks which break like a mofo and run 100+ per and skate sharpenings etc.

it honestly cost a small fortune for your average beer leaguer to play, like myself.


If you have a kid playing competitive Ice....

5k+ for Single A travel per season (Two seasons per year)
10k for AA- Travel per
16k for AAA- Travel per

its weird out here in cali though, hockey is growing at a fast ass rate.


Moto, on there other hand is cheaper to practice, but i'm sure racing cost probably run the same... and you have a higher chance of injury in moto.




6/29/2015 8:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2015 9:20pm
Dissident wrote:
the sport is dead.

newmann wrote:
Naaahhhh, Hoagie man said more people than ever are riding dirtbikes today.

OldPro277 wrote:
Joe, Hoagie is obviously a kid,that has no clue :laugh: We were just talking about this at work last Saturday,when we were young (70's) just about...
Joe, Hoagie is obviously a kid,that has no clue Laughing We were just talking about this at work last Saturday,when we were young (70's) just about every able-bodied kid in the neighborhood had a dirtbike of some type. Not everybody raced ,but damn near everybody rode. All it takes is to compare sales figures from that late 70's era to say the last 4 years. Hell I think Hodaka sold more Super Rats one year than Yamaha has sold 250F's AND 450F's the past 2 years. Just a hunch, but Im sure someone will post the figures.......anyway, Im with you,the sport at the grassroots level is in big trouble
Your statement that a lot of kids bought bikes back in the day but not all raced proves comparing bike sales from then and now does not prove your guys point. Way more bikes were sold back then because kids could ride them on the street and in a more rural America as it was at the time.

My main point was that the national series (which newman is degrading) is more competitive now then ever. That's a fact, if you don't think so tell me why, argue the point I was trying to make instead of creating a straw-man.

I felt like the point of newmans thread was to say that the national series is in a sad state, he used a bs example (trail rider...), and I disagree. People have brought up more bs examples like bike sales and I still disagree.

People should re read newmans first post, and the point he was TRYING to make but failed to make, that is what i was arguing about and the pot metal thing was being facetious, but it sure brought the 2 stroke lovers out of the wood work

What Top Jimmy said when asked what era he would race in....
"If I could pick any period I would pick the one we are currently in! The bikes are unreal straight out of the crate And the tracks seem to just be getting better and better!"
yakrider
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6/29/2015 10:03pm
DonM wrote:
Get back to me when you have facts...so far you are just regurgitating the same biased BS opinion as The Source who was the previous king...
Get back to me when you have facts...so far you are just regurgitating the same biased BS opinion as The Source who was the previous king troll...
Comparing the two series is difficult at best with neither better than the other and with probably the same level of depth...but you feel the need to bait and troll just to see what type of reaction you can get...it gets old...
I gave you some facts and was called a troll for doing so. Not looking for a reaction, just for you yanks to be men and admit the obvious instead of making excuses.
Starcrossed
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6/30/2015 12:52am
^yak raker?
The Rock
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6/30/2015 3:05am
burn1986 wrote:
Yeah, everyone who follows MX knows Cody Gragg. Dry

Not to mention everyone also has an intimate knowledge of all the class breakdowns at LLs.

Seriously these guys throwing shade at newmann crack me up. Guy has forgotten more about moto history than most know plus has a works Honda in his stable.

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