I created a Motocross Incident Database

theycallmeebryan
Edited Date/Time 4/13/2015 9:59am
I created a Motocross Incident Database with the intent of creating running statistics on crashes, injuries, etc.

Motocross is a very dangerous sport and it seems as though more and more crashes and injuries are occurring as time goes on. There currently does not exist a database of statistics of these incidents where analysis can be done in order to make the sport safer. My hope is that people will use this (with good intentions) and over time we can figure out what the trends are and fix them!

The idea is that the general public will fill out this form to report incidents.

Here's the link to a Google Docs Form with questions to fill out. I hope this is easy enough for people to fill out.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KpMWds9cqI8TCt7lX4SYFKOv1X8ugDy2cRNTB6…

Feedback is much appreciated. I'd like to make this as informative and useful as possible.

Here is a link to the stat's summary page.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KpMWds9cqI8TCt7lX4SYFKOv1X8ugDy2cRNTB6…
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DL
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DL 4/9/2015 10:20pm
4/9/2015 10:20pm
This is an excellent idea. IMHO most crashes are preventable to some degree. I hope we can learn and make some positive changes.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 4/9/2015 10:48pm
4/9/2015 10:48pm
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
HenryJ77
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HenryJ77 4/9/2015 11:05pm
4/9/2015 11:05pm
This is a brilliant idea. Hopefully the word will get spread and lead to bigger things I.e. Tracks having to fill out this type of information etc. Good work! I hope I never have to fill it out. Ever.
HenryA
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HenryA 4/10/2015 12:40am
4/10/2015 12:40am
Indeed, this is great. You should change the second question to something that works for people all around the world.

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The Rock
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The Rock 4/10/2015 1:06am
4/10/2015 1:06am
Tip of the visor big time to theycallmeebryan. Thanks for caring enough to spend the time!
hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/10/2015 3:00am
4/10/2015 3:00am
DL wrote:
This is an excellent idea. IMHO most crashes are preventable to some degree. I hope we can learn and make some positive changes.
All crashes are easily preventable, don't get on the bike to start with.

Careful what you wish for here fellows
Suns_PSD
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Suns_PSD 4/10/2015 3:43am
4/10/2015 3:43am
The form requires you to choose a reason. Either failed suspension, failed engine, etc. It needs a none of the above option.

Also none of these accidents are caused by a singular event. I chose that my accident was caused be poor track conditions but in reality it was just a contributing factor. The fact that I was racing and really hanging it out was a major factor as well. I would have liked to have choose 'riding style/ error' or just 'racing' & 'poor track maintenance'. And poor track maintenance is different than 'dangerous/ challenging track design'.
Thanks.
GeorgiePorgie 4/10/2015 4:09am
4/10/2015 4:09am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 4:09am
Got our first asshole statistic. "Penis broke"

If you want to be funny stick it to posting. This database can give us some valuable data to debate.
GeorgiePorgie 4/10/2015 4:11am
4/10/2015 4:11am
Can you direct link the results page without first having to fill out Bryan?
Spartacus
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Spartacus 4/10/2015 4:54am
4/10/2015 4:54am
nytsmaC wrote:
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

brocster
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brocster 4/10/2015 5:28am
4/10/2015 5:28am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 5:41am
poor track conditions should never be a question... don't lose sight of what we do for "recreation". i.e. if you think the track conditions are too bad it is "your" responsibility to opt in or out and blame/excuse should never be placed on the "track conditions"

motocross was founded on riding motorcycles over hilly, bumpy, rutted, muddy, dry, dirt, rock, etc. that is the challenge isn't it? additionally we are riding on motorcycles that are changing the track condition every lap with the rear tire isn't it? the track will never be perfect every lap. If there is a kicker it is "your" responsibility to avoid it until it is fixed just like you do mud holes, rocks, etc. etc.(line choice) key word being "choice"

in saying that, I would replace that question with "type of obstacle?" as that is the "what" that you are looking for and the description will give the "how" it happened

that's my 1 cent contribution

flame away

IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 4/10/2015 5:34am
4/10/2015 5:34am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 5:36am
nytsmaC wrote:
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
Spartacus wrote:
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

There are a few questions that scream litigation to me as well. Track name and flagger being two of them.

This is such a shit world we live in. By trying to make the sport safer, you have to worry about asshole lawyers getting their hands on data to try to destroy the sport.

Theycallmebryan, are you "in the industry" as they say?
theycallmeebryan 4/10/2015 5:43am
4/10/2015 5:43am
Suns_PSD wrote:
The form requires you to choose a reason. Either failed suspension, failed engine, etc. It needs a none of the above option. Also none of these...
The form requires you to choose a reason. Either failed suspension, failed engine, etc. It needs a none of the above option.

Also none of these accidents are caused by a singular event. I chose that my accident was caused be poor track conditions but in reality it was just a contributing factor. The fact that I was racing and really hanging it out was a major factor as well. I would have liked to have choose 'riding style/ error' or just 'racing' & 'poor track maintenance'. And poor track maintenance is different than 'dangerous/ challenging track design'.
Thanks.
Great points. I went ahead and made some changes to the form to account for your concerns, as well as added some additional information to account for other bits of information I was thinking would be helpful.
theycallmeebryan 4/10/2015 5:44am
4/10/2015 5:44am
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
Got our first asshole statistic. "Penis broke" If you want to be funny stick it to posting. This database can give us some valuable data to...
Got our first asshole statistic. "Penis broke"

If you want to be funny stick it to posting. This database can give us some valuable data to debate.
That is sort of the problem with offering a public form for this sort of thing with no sanctioning body to govern it. I'll do my best to weed out the nonsense.
GeorgiePorgie 4/10/2015 5:46am
4/10/2015 5:46am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 5:49am
the database is all based on speculative evidence. Hard to prove any of that in court.

Poor track conditions is a good measurement. Someone may fallen victim to a nice watered face of a jump. Or some other condition that is blatantly screwed. Now choosing to ride on it is their own fault.
theycallmeebryan 4/10/2015 5:48am
4/10/2015 5:48am
brocster wrote:
poor track conditions should never be a question... don't lose sight of what we do for "recreation". i.e. if you think the track conditions are too...
poor track conditions should never be a question... don't lose sight of what we do for "recreation". i.e. if you think the track conditions are too bad it is "your" responsibility to opt in or out and blame/excuse should never be placed on the "track conditions"

motocross was founded on riding motorcycles over hilly, bumpy, rutted, muddy, dry, dirt, rock, etc. that is the challenge isn't it? additionally we are riding on motorcycles that are changing the track condition every lap with the rear tire isn't it? the track will never be perfect every lap. If there is a kicker it is "your" responsibility to avoid it until it is fixed just like you do mud holes, rocks, etc. etc.(line choice) key word being "choice"

in saying that, I would replace that question with "type of obstacle?" as that is the "what" that you are looking for and the description will give the "how" it happened

that's my 1 cent contribution

flame away

I have to disagree. While it is your responsibility to make a sound decision, should "Irresponsibility" really be left out of a data acquisition? Omitting any aspect of data would be leaving information out about the situation. I think any aspect of data we can collect will only benefit some sort of final outcome, conclusion, and resolution. If, indeed, the root cause of most incidents is rider "irresponsibility", well then we may come to the conclusion that motocross riding is irresponsible. In order to have an unbiased analysis, we can not prevent coming to that conclusion.
DoctorJD
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DoctorJD 4/10/2015 5:49am
4/10/2015 5:49am
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1 was made safer, NASCAR was made safer, why the hell do you think its impossible to make motocross safer? Is it arrogance or ignorance that fuels this thinking?

Here's my recent personal experience: My son was in a huge wad-up last week. It was a short double right out of a corner. Nothing too hard, but the takeoff jump was a kicker (short, very steep takeoff). Apparently, since it was so close to the exit of the corner, he had to seat-bounce it to clear it. Okay, lets add all of this up: Jump literally at the exit of a corner with no run-in. Stupid-steep with a short face. What would it have taken to push that jump back another 20ft and given it a less-aggressive (and longer) takeoff? This is what I'm saying: There needs to be some kind of guideline for track builders to follow. Pull a measuring tape on the jump face, it needs to be no less than "X" long. Put an inclinometer (slope indicator) on the jump face. Pull that tape out again. How far is it from the exit of the corner? Is it that damn hard?

One more thing. He endo'd into the face of the 2nd jump and was violently ejected. They said the bike was about 40' down the track from where he was laying. There wasn't a single part of his body that wasn't scratched-up or aching. However, his only major injury was a huge gash on the inside of his knee, so deep you could see his kneecap. Took six stitches. He wears a quality helmet (Troy Lee), under-jersey body protection (Fox Titan), good boots (Tech 7's), and most importantly, a neck brace. After he got home, I began unloading his stuff. As I was going through his gear, I picked up his Leatt, and it was mangled. The thoriatic wing had sheared right at the upper base, just as it should have.

Say what you will, but wearing the proper gear saved him from much worse injury. Even at 17 he's wise enough will tell you that. See, there's another part of the solution, even a 17-year-old gets it. You will never make motocross safe, but to say you can't make it "safer" is absolute ignorance.

Finally, I agree that the track should not be named in the survey, at least not at this point. It shouldn't be so much about pointing fingers as it is educating.
theycallmeebryan 4/10/2015 5:51am
4/10/2015 5:51am
nytsmaC wrote:
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
Spartacus wrote:
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

IWreckALot wrote:
There are a few questions that scream litigation to me as well. Track name and flagger being two of them. This is such a shit world...
There are a few questions that scream litigation to me as well. Track name and flagger being two of them.

This is such a shit world we live in. By trying to make the sport safer, you have to worry about asshole lawyers getting their hands on data to try to destroy the sport.

Theycallmebryan, are you "in the industry" as they say?
I have no ties to any motocross track or motocross organization. I'm simply a life long motocross rider who loves the sport and wants to see the community improve. I also come from an area where local governments have been working to shut down motocross riding because of injuries, property damage, etc. When I was younger, I was able to ride anywhere I wanted. Now, there are only 2 legal tracks in New Jersey.

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jerry atrick moto 4/10/2015 5:52am
4/10/2015 5:52am
Good idea if used for statistics only. Like the NTSB collects accident data But i could also see it a s being used as the smoking gun so to speak.
Flip109
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Flip109 4/10/2015 6:14am
4/10/2015 6:14am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 6:14am
This is a great idea! Thanks for making this bryan. I will fill out a few injuries I have had. After thinking about 4 major ones in the past 12 years. I realized they all involve me pushing to hard and riding over my head Unsure
theinternetkid 4/10/2015 6:40am
4/10/2015 6:40am
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Great points. I went ahead and made some changes to the form to account for your concerns, as well as added some additional information to account...
Great points. I went ahead and made some changes to the form to account for your concerns, as well as added some additional information to account for other bits of information I was thinking would be helpful.
It might be a good idea to add a section where the person giving data can identify themselves as the person who crashed, a family member, a spectator, another participant etc....
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 4/10/2015 7:28am
4/10/2015 7:28am
DoctorJD wrote:
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1...
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1 was made safer, NASCAR was made safer, why the hell do you think its impossible to make motocross safer? Is it arrogance or ignorance that fuels this thinking?

Here's my recent personal experience: My son was in a huge wad-up last week. It was a short double right out of a corner. Nothing too hard, but the takeoff jump was a kicker (short, very steep takeoff). Apparently, since it was so close to the exit of the corner, he had to seat-bounce it to clear it. Okay, lets add all of this up: Jump literally at the exit of a corner with no run-in. Stupid-steep with a short face. What would it have taken to push that jump back another 20ft and given it a less-aggressive (and longer) takeoff? This is what I'm saying: There needs to be some kind of guideline for track builders to follow. Pull a measuring tape on the jump face, it needs to be no less than "X" long. Put an inclinometer (slope indicator) on the jump face. Pull that tape out again. How far is it from the exit of the corner? Is it that damn hard?

One more thing. He endo'd into the face of the 2nd jump and was violently ejected. They said the bike was about 40' down the track from where he was laying. There wasn't a single part of his body that wasn't scratched-up or aching. However, his only major injury was a huge gash on the inside of his knee, so deep you could see his kneecap. Took six stitches. He wears a quality helmet (Troy Lee), under-jersey body protection (Fox Titan), good boots (Tech 7's), and most importantly, a neck brace. After he got home, I began unloading his stuff. As I was going through his gear, I picked up his Leatt, and it was mangled. The thoriatic wing had sheared right at the upper base, just as it should have.

Say what you will, but wearing the proper gear saved him from much worse injury. Even at 17 he's wise enough will tell you that. See, there's another part of the solution, even a 17-year-old gets it. You will never make motocross safe, but to say you can't make it "safer" is absolute ignorance.

Finally, I agree that the track should not be named in the survey, at least not at this point. It shouldn't be so much about pointing fingers as it is educating.
I'm glad your son escaped without more serious injuries.

The track issue, however, is more complicated. In a situation like you described, it sounds like he shouldn't have been attempting to jump that gap. Perhaps the obstacle should have been rolled, rather than turned into a double. The idea that every obstacle should be easy or even doable by most racers is the crux of the issue. So an incident such as what you described has less to do with track condition than it does attempting to do something that exceeds the bike or the rider's capabilities.
TX24
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TX24 4/10/2015 7:37am
4/10/2015 7:37am
DoctorJD wrote:
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1...
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1 was made safer, NASCAR was made safer, why the hell do you think its impossible to make motocross safer? Is it arrogance or ignorance that fuels this thinking?

Here's my recent personal experience: My son was in a huge wad-up last week. It was a short double right out of a corner. Nothing too hard, but the takeoff jump was a kicker (short, very steep takeoff). Apparently, since it was so close to the exit of the corner, he had to seat-bounce it to clear it. Okay, lets add all of this up: Jump literally at the exit of a corner with no run-in. Stupid-steep with a short face. What would it have taken to push that jump back another 20ft and given it a less-aggressive (and longer) takeoff? This is what I'm saying: There needs to be some kind of guideline for track builders to follow. Pull a measuring tape on the jump face, it needs to be no less than "X" long. Put an inclinometer (slope indicator) on the jump face. Pull that tape out again. How far is it from the exit of the corner? Is it that damn hard?

One more thing. He endo'd into the face of the 2nd jump and was violently ejected. They said the bike was about 40' down the track from where he was laying. There wasn't a single part of his body that wasn't scratched-up or aching. However, his only major injury was a huge gash on the inside of his knee, so deep you could see his kneecap. Took six stitches. He wears a quality helmet (Troy Lee), under-jersey body protection (Fox Titan), good boots (Tech 7's), and most importantly, a neck brace. After he got home, I began unloading his stuff. As I was going through his gear, I picked up his Leatt, and it was mangled. The thoriatic wing had sheared right at the upper base, just as it should have.

Say what you will, but wearing the proper gear saved him from much worse injury. Even at 17 he's wise enough will tell you that. See, there's another part of the solution, even a 17-year-old gets it. You will never make motocross safe, but to say you can't make it "safer" is absolute ignorance.

Finally, I agree that the track should not be named in the survey, at least not at this point. It shouldn't be so much about pointing fingers as it is educating.
I realize dirt is expensive and tabletops take more dirt. If it was a tabletop, do you think he might have saved it?

I am glad he didn't have more serious injuries also.
Xeno
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Xeno 4/10/2015 7:41am
4/10/2015 7:41am
Great idea. I hope it gets refined and spreads like wildfire!
This one: "Was the incident a result of a lack of safety flaggers in the area?" Seems very subjective. Maybe rework to ask, "were there designated flaggers?"
Also ask, "Were professional EMTs on-site?"
Spartacus
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Spartacus 4/10/2015 7:43am
4/10/2015 7:43am
So when I had my TBI do I blame it on the spring conditions where the frost was still coming out of the ground leaving a deep/rutted area in a corner of myself for the fact I was trying to blitz the turn?

When I smashed the crap out of my hand hitting a post just off the track, do I blame the track for allowing a post there or myself for over-jumping and going off the track. Or perhaps my suspension service for not having things dialed in that led to the post jump rebound/loss of control issue?

I'm 6' 9" should I even be allowed to race MX?

You need to add more bike info in any event.

"Was the bike modified in regards to suspension or motor".
Riesenberg448 4/10/2015 7:52am
4/10/2015 7:52am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 7:53am
This could potentially give us a larger sample size than just our own or our close friends. Perhaps we will see a pattern that is something that can be used to find a solution.

A couple of things I'd like to see on the list:

Was the rider wearing a neckbrace, (list brand if applicable). Perhaps a listing of helmet/boots/chest pro/ect. may even be valuable. Up to you to know what is important and what becomes too much info for people to provide.

Which direction did the rider go off the bike (front/back/side).

What gear was the bike in during the crash?
hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/10/2015 7:57am
4/10/2015 7:57am
nytsmaC wrote:
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
Spartacus wrote:
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

Reason i posted careful what you wish for.

No way to verify the info. That is the reason I figure it has never been done.

Trying to reconstruct mx crashes would be very hard,everything is scraped up quick as possible to get out of danger,so much happening that eyewitnesses would be sketchy.

If you blame an engine locking up on a crf how the hell you going to keep it from reflecting on honda when it was really johnny no tools forgetting to put oil in.

Best thing to do is assume the risk .
DoctorJD
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DoctorJD 4/10/2015 7:58am
4/10/2015 7:58am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I'm glad your son escaped without more serious injuries. The track issue, however, is more complicated. In a situation like you described, it sounds like he...
I'm glad your son escaped without more serious injuries.

The track issue, however, is more complicated. In a situation like you described, it sounds like he shouldn't have been attempting to jump that gap. Perhaps the obstacle should have been rolled, rather than turned into a double. The idea that every obstacle should be easy or even doable by most racers is the crux of the issue. So an incident such as what you described has less to do with track condition than it does attempting to do something that exceeds the bike or the rider's capabilities.
ALP, I agree with the fact that he shouldn't even have jumped it to start with, he even said so himself. And to clarify, he wasn't "turning it into a double", it was a double. And yes, hundreds of riders had probably done that jump without the same outcome as my son, but point was: Why make the degree of difficulty so high? For me, the hardest jump to do are those short, steep, take-off jumps, I've always called them "kickers". Even harder is trying to do a jump right out of a corner. As a track builder, why even ask riders to negotiate that kind of obstacle? This incident is simply a microcosm of what's happening in the sport.

My idea is to have a guideline for track builders. If anyone here is into mountain biking, and they've done trail work, they know that IMBA has guidelines on trail building. They even have schools nationwide, online videos, manuals, the whole nine yards. Granted, the guidelines are in place to create sustainable trails, but why can't we do the same thing in motocross to create safer tracks? Yes, I know this is a dangerous sport, I've been doing it for close to 40 years, but you can't tell me we can't make it safer. The combination of the right safety gear (mandated on the amature level), and tracks built with some level of intelligence would go a long way IMHO.

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