Is it time to have playoffs?

kwebster447
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4/3/2015 2:15pm
mark_swart wrote:
I'm not convinced, but here's what I think might work. 1) NO point reset like arenacross. Riders keep their points from the first 2/3 of the...
I'm not convinced, but here's what I think might work.

1) NO point reset like arenacross. Riders keep their points from the first 2/3 of the season - as stated, it's really unfair to the ones who have been there every week.

2) For the final 1/3 of the events, main event wins are worth 75 points, 10 points back to 2nd and then 5 points less per position after that. This keeps guys with a big lead from cruising it in, and gives others a realistic shot at the title. Call it the finals, grand finale, whatever.

Aside from that, I do believe the series is too long. Having a throwaway round would also be good if they are going to have such a long series, but it will make scoring confusing and that wouldn't be good on the marketing end.
This!
mrtuf
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4/3/2015 3:12pm
JB 19 wrote:
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking...
Maybe not playoffs exactly, but a chase( I hate that term) structure. The purist in me had always said no, but then I got to thinking.

Regular sports that have a playoffs generally reward teams that have a good regular season and then have the chance to get hot and peak at the right time.

It's accepted in other sports that you can get your shit together in the last 30% of the season and kick everyone's ass and be called the best.

Take something like the top ten in points and start over at round 11 with 1st beginning with 10 points and 10th with none with all other positions filled in with points that reflect their "regular season" ending position. This would give the top guys a small advantage as a reward for their current position when playoffs start.

Think what it could do to the sport right now if Dungey, a gritty Canard, and a fired up Tomac all had a real shot. Add in the intrigue of someone like Roczen making a mad rush to get into the top ten so he has a shot.

I'm about as old school as it gets, but I'll admit that what is going now and how most seasons unfold is as stale as a week old piece of pizza. I'm a sucker for pizza, but that doesn't make it good pizza.
As a team that participates in the AX series I have now had some direct experience with the "playoff" system as Feld has put in place for the last 2 years. As any "old school" team change always seems to be your enemy as I thought this would destroy the series at first, but as I now look back on it I believe it is the right time for this change. This year we, the TiLUBE TUF Racing Husqvarna team were leading at the reset, so if any team should be upset with the reset I imagine it should be us. But the reset as recharged the series as there are now 5-6 guys that are in the hunt with 4 races to go. That many riders in the hunt for the championship can only happen with a reset. The intensity at the races is high and I know you can see it out on the race track. there have been many years in the past where someone has a big point lead and the intensity is gone. Sure there are a few guys jockeying for some of the top ten places, but lets face it most people only care who wins the championship.

When people say its unfair, it is only because you are looking at it without considering what benefits the changes actually allow.
1) Riders don't have to hang it out so much at the beginning of the series, they just have to be sure they are in the top 10.
I believe you would have more of the top riders left at the end of the series. This year in AX we only lost 1 of the top 10 riders due to injury. That really has not ever happened before.
2) If you do get hurt, and you are one of the top riders you can skip a few rounds and still have a chance for the championship.
3) If you are a top new rider you can get some seat time in early and possibly be ready for a championship run at the end with the reset.
4) Riders will have to approach the series differently, and just like any team with a playoffs they will have to pace themselves to peak when the reset begins.
5) Now the end of the season is the most exciting time of the series. They don't have the Superbowl in the middle of the season do they?

I believe this is not a bad change that will wreck the sport as some here have stated, its just different and will just take some time to adjust to. I would start to get use to it though as I really believe you will see it in SX sooner than later, and it will make the series better in the end. Now the suitcase pick in AX is something I would like to see go away as soon as possible!

But of course this is just my 2 cents worth, and what do I know anyway.

NV825
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4/3/2015 3:15pm
mrtuf wrote:
As a team that participates in the AX series I have now had some direct experience with the "playoff" system as Feld has put in place...
As a team that participates in the AX series I have now had some direct experience with the "playoff" system as Feld has put in place for the last 2 years. As any "old school" team change always seems to be your enemy as I thought this would destroy the series at first, but as I now look back on it I believe it is the right time for this change. This year we, the TiLUBE TUF Racing Husqvarna team were leading at the reset, so if any team should be upset with the reset I imagine it should be us. But the reset as recharged the series as there are now 5-6 guys that are in the hunt with 4 races to go. That many riders in the hunt for the championship can only happen with a reset. The intensity at the races is high and I know you can see it out on the race track. there have been many years in the past where someone has a big point lead and the intensity is gone. Sure there are a few guys jockeying for some of the top ten places, but lets face it most people only care who wins the championship.

When people say its unfair, it is only because you are looking at it without considering what benefits the changes actually allow.
1) Riders don't have to hang it out so much at the beginning of the series, they just have to be sure they are in the top 10.
I believe you would have more of the top riders left at the end of the series. This year in AX we only lost 1 of the top 10 riders due to injury. That really has not ever happened before.
2) If you do get hurt, and you are one of the top riders you can skip a few rounds and still have a chance for the championship.
3) If you are a top new rider you can get some seat time in early and possibly be ready for a championship run at the end with the reset.
4) Riders will have to approach the series differently, and just like any team with a playoffs they will have to pace themselves to peak when the reset begins.
5) Now the end of the season is the most exciting time of the series. They don't have the Superbowl in the middle of the season do they?

I believe this is not a bad change that will wreck the sport as some here have stated, its just different and will just take some time to adjust to. I would start to get use to it though as I really believe you will see it in SX sooner than later, and it will make the series better in the end. Now the suitcase pick in AX is something I would like to see go away as soon as possible!

But of course this is just my 2 cents worth, and what do I know anyway.

Great insight and points. Thanks for sharing.
Starcrossed
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4/3/2015 5:44pm
Lots of good ideas coming thru in this thread. I believe it's only a matter of time until we see some of them incorporated into a revised format which will increase the level of intensity as the season comes to a close. Any change should consider the potential impact on the amount of injuries that deplete the field over the course of the season (see mrtuf).

The Shop

wanglimp
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4/4/2015 7:14am
I agree with what mrtuf said.

By the way I was curious what affect throwing away the two worst races would have on some of the last championships, and the results do not really change. I skipped 2012 because it was a crazy season with a lot of injuries.

2014 First set is with all points and second set is with the two worst thrown away.
RV 368
RD 304 -64
KR 285 -83

RV 337
RD 291 -46
KR 283 -54

2013
RV 371
DM 338 -33
RD 337 -34

RV 353
DM 312 -41
RD 309 -44

2011 This is the only year where something actually changed, and it is just a swap between 2nd and 3rd place in points.
RV 338
CR 334 -4
RD 328 -10

RV 326
CR 307 -19
RD 311 -15
Aaryn234
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Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are out injured or get injured in the first couple of races to the chase!

We would just end up with riders rolling round playing it safe for the start and middle of the championship opposed to maybe playing it safe in the last couple of rounds if they have a title on lock down.

17 Races and they all count, If a race aint going to count for anything but some qualification process why would there be as much interest in it.

I am sure A1-A2 and A3 would be as exciting with no actual championship points on the line - NOT
KennyT
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4/4/2015 4:01pm
Aaryn234 wrote:
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are...
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are out injured or get injured in the first couple of races to the chase!

We would just end up with riders rolling round playing it safe for the start and middle of the championship opposed to maybe playing it safe in the last couple of rounds if they have a title on lock down.

17 Races and they all count, If a race aint going to count for anything but some qualification process why would there be as much interest in it.

I am sure A1-A2 and A3 would be as exciting with no actual championship points on the line - NOT
How can you be against something when you ave no idea how it works?

All races count with championship points. There is no such thing as a race with no points awarded. At the end of the season there is a final point tally. Riders would go all out the ENTIRE season as a win would get them in the championship hunt.

And if you want to see riders rolling around playing it safe take a look at the last few SX races and try and stay awake during the remaining rounds. With the title locked up everyone is trying to stay in one piece for the Nationals,
Aaryn234
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4/4/2015 10:50pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2015 10:51pm
Aaryn234 wrote:
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are...
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are out injured or get injured in the first couple of races to the chase!

We would just end up with riders rolling round playing it safe for the start and middle of the championship opposed to maybe playing it safe in the last couple of rounds if they have a title on lock down.

17 Races and they all count, If a race aint going to count for anything but some qualification process why would there be as much interest in it.

I am sure A1-A2 and A3 would be as exciting with no actual championship points on the line - NOT
KennyT wrote:
How can you be against something when you ave no idea how it works? All races count with championship points. There is no such thing as...
How can you be against something when you ave no idea how it works?

All races count with championship points. There is no such thing as a race with no points awarded. At the end of the season there is a final point tally. Riders would go all out the ENTIRE season as a win would get them in the championship hunt.

And if you want to see riders rolling around playing it safe take a look at the last few SX races and try and stay awake during the remaining rounds. With the title locked up everyone is trying to stay in one piece for the Nationals,
I know exactly how it can work.

X amount of riders earn enough points to make it to a chase style race-off for the final few rounds.

Check out the points situation from this year, Take is from say round 10 with the top ten in the RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP over the final seven rounds, these are your top ten riders.

1. Ryan Dungey - 224 Pts
2. Trey Canard - 184 Pts
3. Eli Tomac - 159 Pts
4. Ken Roczen - 156 Pts
5. Chad Reed - 140 Pts
6. Jason Anderson - 140 Pts
7. Cole Seely - 138 Pts
8. Blake Baggett - 135 Pts
9. Andrew Short - 109 Pts
10. Broc Tickle - 107 Pts

So you reset the points, a couple of races in you lose Canard, Roczen is in but he is not racing, yet you can't promote someone else to the chase as Roczen can come back in at any time.

At the same time do the riders in the chase automatically get a start in the main event leaving 12 spots on the gates for riders to piss around with getting in the way of the RACE FOR THE TITLE.

You then have the rest of the field including Millsaps, Peick, Barcia, Grant out there racing for what?

Even if at round 10 you took the top 20 in points, and re-set for the final 7 rounds, what do you do, just allow the top 20 for the final 7 rounds line up for the main event and scrap heats and main events.

SX and MX are still what I would class as a mans moto sport, 17 rounds (12 rounds 24 motos for MX) all points count best man wins.

Not re-set halfway through to give someone that sucked in the first half of the year a chance to win.

If you are bored with SX by round this time of the season, maybe you are not as much of a fan of the sport as you think you are!

The racing has still been good. Having a chase at the moment would make no difference, would still be the same guys out there going for it each week.

Plus there is only one rider out there riding around to ensure he wraps up the title, that is Dungey, every other rider is doing all they can to pick up race wins before the season ends. Fuck after next weekend Dungey could have the title, and certainly by the week after, then every rider will be lining up with only one thing on the line, the WIN for the round. What more can you ask for.

KennyT
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4/4/2015 11:41pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2015 11:44pm
Aaryn234 wrote:
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are...
Yeah great idea in something like Supercross where you could get to the Chase part of the season and half the riders in the "Chase" are out injured or get injured in the first couple of races to the chase!

We would just end up with riders rolling round playing it safe for the start and middle of the championship opposed to maybe playing it safe in the last couple of rounds if they have a title on lock down.

17 Races and they all count, If a race aint going to count for anything but some qualification process why would there be as much interest in it.

I am sure A1-A2 and A3 would be as exciting with no actual championship points on the line - NOT
KennyT wrote:
How can you be against something when you ave no idea how it works? All races count with championship points. There is no such thing as...
How can you be against something when you ave no idea how it works?

All races count with championship points. There is no such thing as a race with no points awarded. At the end of the season there is a final point tally. Riders would go all out the ENTIRE season as a win would get them in the championship hunt.

And if you want to see riders rolling around playing it safe take a look at the last few SX races and try and stay awake during the remaining rounds. With the title locked up everyone is trying to stay in one piece for the Nationals,
Aaryn234 wrote:
I know exactly how it can work. X amount of riders earn enough points to make it to a chase style race-off for the final few...
I know exactly how it can work.

X amount of riders earn enough points to make it to a chase style race-off for the final few rounds.

Check out the points situation from this year, Take is from say round 10 with the top ten in the RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP over the final seven rounds, these are your top ten riders.

1. Ryan Dungey - 224 Pts
2. Trey Canard - 184 Pts
3. Eli Tomac - 159 Pts
4. Ken Roczen - 156 Pts
5. Chad Reed - 140 Pts
6. Jason Anderson - 140 Pts
7. Cole Seely - 138 Pts
8. Blake Baggett - 135 Pts
9. Andrew Short - 109 Pts
10. Broc Tickle - 107 Pts

So you reset the points, a couple of races in you lose Canard, Roczen is in but he is not racing, yet you can't promote someone else to the chase as Roczen can come back in at any time.

At the same time do the riders in the chase automatically get a start in the main event leaving 12 spots on the gates for riders to piss around with getting in the way of the RACE FOR THE TITLE.

You then have the rest of the field including Millsaps, Peick, Barcia, Grant out there racing for what?

Even if at round 10 you took the top 20 in points, and re-set for the final 7 rounds, what do you do, just allow the top 20 for the final 7 rounds line up for the main event and scrap heats and main events.

SX and MX are still what I would class as a mans moto sport, 17 rounds (12 rounds 24 motos for MX) all points count best man wins.

Not re-set halfway through to give someone that sucked in the first half of the year a chance to win.

If you are bored with SX by round this time of the season, maybe you are not as much of a fan of the sport as you think you are!

The racing has still been good. Having a chase at the moment would make no difference, would still be the same guys out there going for it each week.

Plus there is only one rider out there riding around to ensure he wraps up the title, that is Dungey, every other rider is doing all they can to pick up race wins before the season ends. Fuck after next weekend Dungey could have the title, and certainly by the week after, then every rider will be lining up with only one thing on the line, the WIN for the round. What more can you ask for.

You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it would be implemented. Learn about how a chase format works and then come back to discuss.

NASCAR begins its chase earlier than SX would because they have 40+ races a year.
SX would reset with around 3 rounds to go. You would then have 10 riders going for a title. Wins usually get,you,a bonus point for the Chase so every race would be hard fought for the win leading up to the Chase. The riders you mentioned who would,have nothing to race for,would be still going for points as points are still paid at chase rounds.

You would not eliminate heats or semis. The races would be ran as they are now.

And why would you say Moto is a mans moto sport? If you ask me auto racing is filled with more men the MX/SX which is primarily made up of what I would consider young kids. Drivers like Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are most likely much better trained athletes than what you will find in MX
Aaryn234
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4/5/2015 1:53am
KennyT wrote:
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it...
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it would be implemented. Learn about how a chase format works and then come back to discuss.

NASCAR begins its chase earlier than SX would because they have 40+ races a year.
SX would reset with around 3 rounds to go. You would then have 10 riders going for a title. Wins usually get,you,a bonus point for the Chase so every race would be hard fought for the win leading up to the Chase. The riders you mentioned who would,have nothing to race for,would be still going for points as points are still paid at chase rounds.

You would not eliminate heats or semis. The races would be ran as they are now.

And why would you say Moto is a mans moto sport? If you ask me auto racing is filled with more men the MX/SX which is primarily made up of what I would consider young kids. Drivers like Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are most likely much better trained athletes than what you will find in MX
If you were going to look at how a RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP / CHASE scenario would play out under FELD you would be better off looking at the Arenacross Championship and not NASCAR for obvious reasons.

Going by those provisions you would be looking at at least a 5 round chase for SX and with SX having a much higher percentage of the top contenders sidelined during injury each year compared to Arenacross, it is completely feasible that you would be missing 20-50% of the chase field by Vegas!

Back to my other point which I think illustrates that you are not a big fan of the sport.

You really think Dungey and co don't put in as much work as the F1 guys? You serious with that? You think they hire guys like Baker to just sit around. You are talking about riders that have to put in a full 17 race Supercross series and 12 round outdoor championship plus maybe a couple more races during the year in one of, if not the most physically demanding sports on the planet!

I think you would find the top guys in MX/SX who are serious about winning would be training and putting in every bit as much effort as any top sportsman in any field.

Plus why use F1 for your argument, a series that has success year after year with the tried and tested format of motorsport racing when racing for a championship. EVERY RACE COUNTS. Not giving riders / drivers who can't put a full season together a chance to win because the figure things out for less then 1/3 of the season at the end of it.

People keep saying SX needs change, isnt the sport as healthy as it has been in a long long time, apart from maybe the guys who make up the 22 man starting gate still paying their own way. But hey I guess a chase system where they are completely forgotten about all together should help the privateers a little more right. But lets make sure they are there at the start to ensure the 22 gates are full to put on the show.
Aaryn234
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4/5/2015 2:01am
Like Herlings? The non playoff system doesn't prevent that.
ChrisB10 wrote:
WRONG!

Herlings still almost won it. In a playoff system he would have had zero chance. Not a difficult concept......
KennyT wrote:
So he would have had no chance because he had a pretty nasty injury at the end of the season. Sounds fair to me
But it is fair for a rider who missed the same amount of races at the start of the season to be in the running, Sounds fair!
Aaryn234
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4/5/2015 2:07am
If it is so much more exciting to have a series come down to the last 3-5 races, why not just have a five round championship and be done with it!

Have a five round SX series to kick off the season, then head outdoors for a 5 weekend series, but that would mean 10 motos, so maybe to keep it exciting just have three rounds.

8 Weekends of racing, every championship goes to the final race and everyone is happy. Done and Done
4/5/2015 2:35am
Nascar is stupid and boring. I vote that we do everything we can to NOT be like them.
wanglimp
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4/5/2015 3:34am
Aaryn234 wrote:
But it is fair for a rider who missed the same amount of races at the start of the season to be in the running, Sounds...
But it is fair for a rider who missed the same amount of races at the start of the season to be in the running, Sounds fair!
IMHO, I think that a change to the format could be a good thing. Or at least drive us in a direction where the end resuld could be more exciting. I am a true fan and I will watch every weekend no matter what, but I will say, it is a little boring going into the last four racees knowing that RD will clinch tha championship and we will watch the last three races being raced just for fun pretty much. Read what MrTuff posted, it gives some pretty good insight. I would address some of your points that are dumb, but you argue like a woman and I know it will be a waste of energy. You have a one track mind and you are just going to repeat the same nagativity over and over again.
Crush
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4/5/2015 3:44am
Is it working in AX right now?

I think they've got bigger issues than the championship format but they're probably no less likely to be tackled either
KennyT
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4/5/2015 9:02am
KennyT wrote:
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it...
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it would be implemented. Learn about how a chase format works and then come back to discuss.

NASCAR begins its chase earlier than SX would because they have 40+ races a year.
SX would reset with around 3 rounds to go. You would then have 10 riders going for a title. Wins usually get,you,a bonus point for the Chase so every race would be hard fought for the win leading up to the Chase. The riders you mentioned who would,have nothing to race for,would be still going for points as points are still paid at chase rounds.

You would not eliminate heats or semis. The races would be ran as they are now.

And why would you say Moto is a mans moto sport? If you ask me auto racing is filled with more men the MX/SX which is primarily made up of what I would consider young kids. Drivers like Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are most likely much better trained athletes than what you will find in MX
Aaryn234 wrote:
If you were going to look at how a RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP / CHASE scenario would play out under FELD you would be better off...
If you were going to look at how a RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP / CHASE scenario would play out under FELD you would be better off looking at the Arenacross Championship and not NASCAR for obvious reasons.

Going by those provisions you would be looking at at least a 5 round chase for SX and with SX having a much higher percentage of the top contenders sidelined during injury each year compared to Arenacross, it is completely feasible that you would be missing 20-50% of the chase field by Vegas!

Back to my other point which I think illustrates that you are not a big fan of the sport.

You really think Dungey and co don't put in as much work as the F1 guys? You serious with that? You think they hire guys like Baker to just sit around. You are talking about riders that have to put in a full 17 race Supercross series and 12 round outdoor championship plus maybe a couple more races during the year in one of, if not the most physically demanding sports on the planet!

I think you would find the top guys in MX/SX who are serious about winning would be training and putting in every bit as much effort as any top sportsman in any field.

Plus why use F1 for your argument, a series that has success year after year with the tried and tested format of motorsport racing when racing for a championship. EVERY RACE COUNTS. Not giving riders / drivers who can't put a full season together a chance to win because the figure things out for less then 1/3 of the season at the end of it.

People keep saying SX needs change, isnt the sport as healthy as it has been in a long long time, apart from maybe the guys who make up the 22 man starting gate still paying their own way. But hey I guess a chase system where they are completely forgotten about all together should help the privateers a little more right. But lets make sure they are there at the start to ensure the 22 gates are full to put on the show.
Don't talk to me about being a fan of the sport just because I have a different opinion than yours. I can guarantee you I have seen more of this sport live over the past 45 years than you have watched on your telly

To say MX riders are on par with F1 drivers in regards to training is foolish. Maybe 9-10 riders in this sport attempt a training regimen that would rival F1 but the rest of the field is not even close. Even some pudgy NASCAR drivers and the fit little girl that races her go daddy car have incredible stamina. This is in reference that you feel MX is a "mans" sport. Sure it is tough and I will not dispute that but it is also a sport that is enjoyed by little girls and boys so if you think it makes you more of a man than go ahead and believe that. Being a man is what you are about off the track.

In regards to privateers. A chase format would have ZERO effect on a privateer and his earnings or final position in the standings.
Ebs
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4/5/2015 9:37am Edited Date/Time 4/5/2015 9:53am
nytsmaC wrote:
What about giving them 2 throwaway rounds? It would really tighten up the points, and give a desperate but injured racer a break to get healthier.
If I had to pick anything, I'd choose this. One or two throwaway rounds, max. But even then I don't like that it punishes the guys who keep it together for the whole season.


Most of you guys are ignoring that your typical sports playoffs are also elimination events. You lose, you're out. That's about the only way I could get behind some alternative system for supercross. You collect points to a certain round in the series, the top # of guys make playoffs, then elimination series start and points don't matter. Last race of the season is for the championship with a whittled down field.

I don't like it as it creates a whole host of other problems, but a mid season points reset is just dumb. NASCAR only did it because nothing about NASCAR is exciting.
Park Boys
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4/5/2015 9:45am
Aaryn234 wrote:
If it is so much more exciting to have a series come down to the last 3-5 races, why not just have a five round championship...
If it is so much more exciting to have a series come down to the last 3-5 races, why not just have a five round championship and be done with it!

Have a five round SX series to kick off the season, then head outdoors for a 5 weekend series, but that would mean 10 motos, so maybe to keep it exciting just have three rounds.

8 Weekends of racing, every championship goes to the final race and everyone is happy. Done and Done
I would not be happy at all. I would be pissed as hell!
4/5/2015 10:06am
More people watched the last GP last year due to Herlings trying to ride with a broken leg. It added Drama. We need to move further...
More people watched the last GP last year due to Herlings trying to ride with a broken leg. It added Drama.

We need to move further in the direction of entertainment, the show is too boring.

Supercross is a victim of it's own success. They make so much money they don't want to improve anything.

Eric Peronnard should be the promoter. He knows how to put on a show.
I agree. We need to break the points leaders leg before the final race. Instant drama
Zracer
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4/5/2015 10:07am
Is ADD so prevalent now that following a race series is just too much for many of you? Some of you need professional help.
h&m_cycle
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4/5/2015 10:11am Edited Date/Time 4/5/2015 10:14am
Nascar is stupid and boring. I vote that we do everything we can to NOT be like them.
Yep they don't know what they are doing, they actually show practice & qualifying on TV

& Supercross is not boring? next week Webb will win then either Tomac or Dungey, don't think Kenny will
be 100%

Yeah, we got 2 motos on one channel then 2 on another channel, what a way to build the sport of motocross.
h&m_cycle
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4/5/2015 10:26am Edited Date/Time 4/5/2015 10:29am
Just change the Supercross format.

Run timed practice for gate positions, then start 40 bikes on a supercross trackLaughing

2 rows of 20, it would be fun to watch, 30 minutes plus 2 laps, you get lapped twice you get black flaggedWoohoo

2 motos each class 45 minutes between 250 moto 1 & 450 moto 1 that way it's a 3 hour format still.Silly

seriously just change the points spread, 5 points more between 1st. & 2nd & so on...

1 point for a heat win, 1 point for the pole.



Johnny Depp
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4/5/2015 11:03am Edited Date/Time 4/5/2015 11:21am
I'm not sure most of you get it. TV RATINGS RULE.

All we get are MX companies buying advertising. No Beer companies even want us.

We don't race on Easter weekend because the Gorilla in the room (NCAA Final 4) is dominating TV and sports bars.
Which draws more viewers? NBA 7 game series or NCAA 1 (loss) and done?
Undefeated Kentucky is out. We don't care about the whole season, who is best at the end?

We draw viewers worse than hunting and fishing channels.

The show is weak. I am a lifelong fan and never miss an "episode" I mean race.

This SX series started IN A FOOTBALL STADIUM. It is not some big tradition thing. It is a SHOW.

The factories are what keep it alive buying advertising and paying riders and they rule it.
4/5/2015 1:12pm
Zracer wrote:
What we have to lose is a real champion being decided ,as it is now, VS some arbitrary BS Champion under a "chase" system.
The current system is arbitrary too, it's just been done for years and years and so you're used to it and think that's the way it...
The current system is arbitrary too, it's just been done for years and years and so you're used to it and think that's the way it "should" be. CHANGE BAD.
Zracer wrote:
Yeah pointing equally for every race in a series is arbitrary. .....
Now you're gettin it.

The number of points awarded per position is arbitrary. The number of riders qualifying through the heats is arbitrary; it just changed last year. Even heats and LCQ's themselves, as I hope I demonstrated above, are arbitrary.

A countdown clock instead of a lap counter. The +2 at the end of a moto. Outsiders to the sport probably see this stuff and think What in the fuck?

That's why I don't get off on championships as explosively as a lot of you, and then you get all bent out of shape: the points system was purpose-built so things like mechanical DNF's are factored right in with everything else, which means when looking at a champion you're also factoring in how solid his bike was, etc. I don't care how solid his bike was. I'm interested in the riding.

If we suddenly bolted a 'Chase' system onto the end of this current series and it somehow screwed Dungey, then that's obviously unfairly arbitrary, but I don't really find anything unreasonable or unfair about a system implemented from the start of a season, where each rider knows what the deal is going into it.
4/5/2015 1:58pm
I like throwaway idea ... playoffs not so much. But what about combination of them both?
Let's split the season... and you throw away total of 3 results:... 2 from first half and 1 from second half. BUT... the throwaway from second half of season MUST be in middle of "first ones". For example.. you throw away 10th place from second half... then your throwaways from first half must be - one of them worse than 10th place and second one BETTER than 10th?

Ahhhh... I'm too drunk to figure it out. Nevermind.... ... back to my beer now...
JB 19
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4/5/2015 3:55pm
Making timed practice, and heat races hold points value would be a good change too. 5 points for fastest lap. You could even award 5 points for fastest lap during the night show too.

Make the heat races fairly significant so it mixes things up. Lots of different guys are capable of winning heat races. Like 10 points for a heat win, 5 for second, 3 for third, and 1 for fourth.

There is a lot of untapped potential. It's just that people have to be willing to be open minded.
Aaryn234
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4/5/2015 4:22pm
KennyT wrote:
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it...
You have it all wrong Aaryn. You say you know exactly how it would work but then you list a scenario completely opposite of how it would be implemented. Learn about how a chase format works and then come back to discuss.

NASCAR begins its chase earlier than SX would because they have 40+ races a year.
SX would reset with around 3 rounds to go. You would then have 10 riders going for a title. Wins usually get,you,a bonus point for the Chase so every race would be hard fought for the win leading up to the Chase. The riders you mentioned who would,have nothing to race for,would be still going for points as points are still paid at chase rounds.

You would not eliminate heats or semis. The races would be ran as they are now.

And why would you say Moto is a mans moto sport? If you ask me auto racing is filled with more men the MX/SX which is primarily made up of what I would consider young kids. Drivers like Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are most likely much better trained athletes than what you will find in MX
Aaryn234 wrote:
If you were going to look at how a RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP / CHASE scenario would play out under FELD you would be better off...
If you were going to look at how a RACE FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP / CHASE scenario would play out under FELD you would be better off looking at the Arenacross Championship and not NASCAR for obvious reasons.

Going by those provisions you would be looking at at least a 5 round chase for SX and with SX having a much higher percentage of the top contenders sidelined during injury each year compared to Arenacross, it is completely feasible that you would be missing 20-50% of the chase field by Vegas!

Back to my other point which I think illustrates that you are not a big fan of the sport.

You really think Dungey and co don't put in as much work as the F1 guys? You serious with that? You think they hire guys like Baker to just sit around. You are talking about riders that have to put in a full 17 race Supercross series and 12 round outdoor championship plus maybe a couple more races during the year in one of, if not the most physically demanding sports on the planet!

I think you would find the top guys in MX/SX who are serious about winning would be training and putting in every bit as much effort as any top sportsman in any field.

Plus why use F1 for your argument, a series that has success year after year with the tried and tested format of motorsport racing when racing for a championship. EVERY RACE COUNTS. Not giving riders / drivers who can't put a full season together a chance to win because the figure things out for less then 1/3 of the season at the end of it.

People keep saying SX needs change, isnt the sport as healthy as it has been in a long long time, apart from maybe the guys who make up the 22 man starting gate still paying their own way. But hey I guess a chase system where they are completely forgotten about all together should help the privateers a little more right. But lets make sure they are there at the start to ensure the 22 gates are full to put on the show.
KennyT wrote:
Don't talk to me about being a fan of the sport just because I have a different opinion than yours. I can guarantee you I have...
Don't talk to me about being a fan of the sport just because I have a different opinion than yours. I can guarantee you I have seen more of this sport live over the past 45 years than you have watched on your telly

To say MX riders are on par with F1 drivers in regards to training is foolish. Maybe 9-10 riders in this sport attempt a training regimen that would rival F1 but the rest of the field is not even close. Even some pudgy NASCAR drivers and the fit little girl that races her go daddy car have incredible stamina. This is in reference that you feel MX is a "mans" sport. Sure it is tough and I will not dispute that but it is also a sport that is enjoyed by little girls and boys so if you think it makes you more of a man than go ahead and believe that. Being a man is what you are about off the track.

In regards to privateers. A chase format would have ZERO effect on a privateer and his earnings or final position in the standings.
I would say you have seen more live due to the fact that you are 8 years older than me, and would have seen a shit ton more live in the U.S, as I live a little distance away.

The training side of things we are going to have to disagree on, sure different motosports would require different forms of training and a focus on different areas, but not for a second would I say that the top F1 drivers train harder than the worlds top MX riders, if that was the case there would be a rider out there willing to train even harder than the current riders to find that edge to win.

Just because a sport like F1 is more mainstream and everyone knows about it does not mean they train harder than any other top level sportsperson in the world.

I would not be surprised if F1 drivers were a lot like MX racers.... Rely on natural talent and some training while young, train super hard and focused while on their way to proving them selves then once they have the experience can not so much back down their training, but know what is needed to be done to get the job done.

It would actually be cool to see how similar F1 drivers and top MX riders trained. Both need to be mindful of weight (F1 more so) both need crazy endurance, F1 drivers more so on the mental side of things, going flat out for 2+ hours in a race, both need strength to go along with the endurance.

As for a Race to the championship type deal. Obviously we are never going to agree.

I just don't see the point of having races that don't count towards the championship at the end of the day.

Quick question for you, would you like to see the same thing done for the Motocross Championship, either way why or why not?

The same with F1, would you like to see points re-set before the final 5 races of the season.

I just can't see the need for change in SX especially when it seems to be going along pretty strongly at the moment. Maybe points for heat race wins to encourage riders to go for the win, but even then you take the risk of turning it into more of an entertainment compared to what it is now..... The only legitimate Supercross championship in the world right now.





KennyT
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4/5/2015 5:18pm
Aaron sorry I didn't notice you were in Aus.
You would be limited to what was available to watch for sure

And no I would not want change for 'MX Nationals or the GPs.

SX is such a joke with the sand pits n over unders and heats n semis. That is why I don't think it would mess with the integrity of the sport because to me there is none even as it exist

Anyway nice debating with you and sorry to get worked up. Have a good one Aaryn
Johnny Depp
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4/5/2015 8:49pm
This sport is not doing so well that we should leave it alone as most of you think.

When you can't sell advertising outside of your own industry you have a problem.

If it weren't for energy drinks this sport would be in the crapper.

We need fans that don't know the word moto or 450cc.

You bunch of die hards like me aren't going to quit watching and attending if they change the format.

Does the team with the best record automatically get crowned Super Bowl Champion?

College Football finally has a mini playoff after years of stupid bowl games and polls.

Get onboard or get left in the past.

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