JS7 Appeal, FIM Extension

hvaughn88
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3/18/2015 11:43am
Uggghh. Groundhog day.
BD233
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3/18/2015 11:47am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2015 11:47am
The only thing worse than this thread is not seeing JS7 on the line week after week over an ADHD drug.
There will be no 14th to 1st rides this year...just the same old story...good start...pull away....win...
3/18/2015 11:54am
kongols wrote:
[b]Anything new with James’ appeal, what’s going on with that? [/b] We just heard the 31 of this month he has his date in Europe. They...
Anything new with James’ appeal, what’s going on with that?
We just heard the 31 of this month he has his date in Europe. They asked for a couple of days’ extension. It’s three judges now. James’ side gets to pick one, the FIM picks one, and then there’s a neutral arbitrator in the middle. Those three will decide.

Can you talk about a season with James still around. None of us really knew what you guys were going to do with him, but it seems like he’s been around quite a bit doing the signings. What’s that like having a suspended rider but still he’s one of your guys and having him around?
It’s been a challenge. There was kind of no playbook on how to do this. My view is the relationship with James is solid; we stand behind him 100 percent. I think we were the first of his big sponsors to do that, and the other guys said, hey, Suzuki’s staying behind him, and they all stayed behind him. Frustration is a great word, challenging is a great word. We worked it out. Obviously I can’t pay him what I was, but we worked out a PR amendment to his contract so he comes to the races, he works with Blake, and he does some PR for Suzuki and Yoshimura.

Basically we just kind of finalized discussions to re-sign him for the next two years. He hasn’t signed yet, but we have it all in place. Our goal is it’ll be James and Blake—they will be our two riders.


Full interview here http://racerxonline.com/2015/03/18/between-the-motos-mike-webb
Great read - thanks for posting. Interesting they have their two riders (Blake and James) set for next couple years. Especially with other riders coming available. I think it is a good team. Looking forward to seeing what Baggett can do the re3st of SX and in outdoors this year but also next SX season. He will be a top rider.
FreshTopEnd
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3/18/2015 12:03pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2015 12:04pm
I agree that decisions get made that the fans don’t have a vote on; they do, however, have a voice. Mostly lately that voice has been urging PED testing (until a radical reversal in mid-Dec, when it all became a conspiracy).

So, you’d think fans who think it’s worth having an opinion about PED’s would take the time to know what the rules are. All the more so if one is a professional with a vested interest in how those rules apply to your participation.

If these rules are as bad as people make them out to be when Stewart’s penalty came down, they were that bad the moment so many in the sport championed putting this sport under the yoke of those rules. People can stand back now and either say “I understood what we were getting into” or “I had no idea,” but no one can say they didn’t have the opportunity to know what the rules at issue now were at the time in order to judge their merits. So, it apparently seemed fair before or people were just clueless; not sure what the other options would be, just not caring I guess.

I don’t have a problem with the “throw out the current regimes” position going forward (means of doing that might be a bit tricky…). I’ve pretty much said I don’t think the PED testing system is worth the cost in this sport; and generally I think PED testing is more effective at trapping less culpable people with no intent to cheat than it is to catch intentional cheaters. But how can you change a system without first understanding what it is you are changing, and what consequences will result from the change? That question applies not just now, but back several years ago when PED testing was embraced and some people apparently chose to be asleep at the wheel as far as what would happen when someone got caught, and what independence the sanctioning bodies were surrendering when they agreed to be bound by the doping Code.

Probably worth keeping in mind that once you cross over from nothing to some kind of regulation, there never will be complete agreement on what’s optimal, only a moving consensus as folks try to make things better (however they define better) and continually adjust as events play out. This definitely is one of those situations where what's good for the sport is controversial. Fans definitely have a voice in that, but only as much influence for constructive change as that voice makes sense.

For Stew, I hope they get something worked out that gets him on the track sooner rather than later. It's not a good day for any moto fan when he's denied a place at the gate. Hope everyone learns from it; it's chock filled with lessons for anyone with an ear for them.

The Shop

3/18/2015 1:01pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I...
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I don't. I give you this message board as exhibit A, haha.
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' ....
we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious.....
I know ur jokin'...haha...or r u???
hvaughn88
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3/18/2015 1:02pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I...
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I don't. I give you this message board as exhibit A, haha.
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' .... we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious..... I know...
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' ....
we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious.....
I know ur jokin'...haha...or r u???
Yes, I'm serious.
3/18/2015 1:05pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I...
I don't really get why that matters. In addition, do you really think the fans are capable and/or qualified to have that kind of power? I don't. I give you this message board as exhibit A, haha.
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' .... we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious..... I know...
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' ....
we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious.....
I know ur jokin'...haha...or r u???
hvaughn88 wrote:
Yes, I'm serious.
so we can vote in hillary but not the ped police......
hvaughn88
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3/18/2015 1:07pm
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' .... we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious..... I know...
now that's hill bilwee funee rite der' ....
we vote in everything else.....but are too dumb to vote in the PED police....are you serious.....
I know ur jokin'...haha...or r u???
hvaughn88 wrote:
Yes, I'm serious.
so we can vote in hillary but not the ped police......
it would appear that way, wouldn't it
3/18/2015 1:17pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
it would appear that way, wouldn't it
yep...haha....
Hut
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3/18/2015 1:18pm
Was there ever really that many fans wanting this crap? Or was it just a few loud ones? I'm no genius but it doesn't seem to be helping MX in any way.
rosebud441
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3/18/2015 1:59pm
Well not that it matters what the fork i think... But i have lost some interest in PRO racing in general with the absence of JS7, sure the races go on and on, but its just not the same.. little too white bread (no pun intended) for me.

I am focusing more on my own little world, making sure me and my cycle are ready for the season.. Even if i all i do is spin laps at the practice track.
dkg
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3/18/2015 2:39pm
FTE:

I appreciate your comments. They make sense. The primary difficulty I have with this entire process is that most of the time requirements where simply not followed. I find it difficult to conclude that people knew what they were getting into when what they thought they were getting into isn't what happened. Of course it could be that simple voluntary ignorance of the process occurred when the process was adopted. In any event, the resolution of the testing to decision etc. took an absurdly long time, the outcome of the hearing was not timely, and in fact, it seems the decision has never been made available. Your inability to find the appeals filings, etc. also causes concern. From the outside looking in, it seems that many things are being handled in a "make it up as it goes" fashion.

From a "fans" prospective it is difficult to give the process much integrity. From a participants perspective, JS7's team and those associated with it were jerked around by the failure to process events timely. Unfortunately this seems to be a situation common to many quasi-legal administrative processes, where the people governed by the process don't care until it effects them and when it actually does become relevant it is often found that the system is broken.

As for testing, I am personally ambivalent about it. As implemented it doesn't seem designed to address the problem, if one exits. For instance, the odds of a top level rider that reaches the podium regularly being test are dramatically higher than others. I also read in another thread posted by someone in the "know" that SX doesn't test the 250 class. If the object of testing is to insure that the elite members of the 450 class are tested, then, it accomplishes this goal. If the goal is to eliminate use in SX in general, it appears to statistically fall way short of reaching this objective.

However, it looks like testing is here to stay. Given this, a few simple things could be changed to improve the system such as:

1. Shorten the time periods between test date and decision date. (Suggestion of 90 days from the date of test to decision)
2. Make available to the public the decision and relevant hearing dates.
3. Have a viable appeal process that doesn't take for ever. (I'd like to see this done and over with in 60 days)
4. Better defined punishments for the infraction involved to avoid apparent disparate punishment.
5. Finally and of least concern, is there really a need to hearings, etc. in Europe for what is essentially a North America series?

This entire process doesn't really seem to be rocket science. It basically appears to breakdown to (1) did the rider test for a prohibited substance, (2) if so is there a TUE or other exemption, (3) if no exemption, are there factors that mitigate the punishment. Pretty easy questions to answer. Of course I may be over simplifying things.

Anyway just some thoughts.

hvaughn88
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3/18/2015 2:52pm
dkg wrote:
FTE: I appreciate your comments. They make sense. The primary difficulty I have with this entire process is that most of the time requirements where simply...
FTE:

I appreciate your comments. They make sense. The primary difficulty I have with this entire process is that most of the time requirements where simply not followed. I find it difficult to conclude that people knew what they were getting into when what they thought they were getting into isn't what happened. Of course it could be that simple voluntary ignorance of the process occurred when the process was adopted. In any event, the resolution of the testing to decision etc. took an absurdly long time, the outcome of the hearing was not timely, and in fact, it seems the decision has never been made available. Your inability to find the appeals filings, etc. also causes concern. From the outside looking in, it seems that many things are being handled in a "make it up as it goes" fashion.

From a "fans" prospective it is difficult to give the process much integrity. From a participants perspective, JS7's team and those associated with it were jerked around by the failure to process events timely. Unfortunately this seems to be a situation common to many quasi-legal administrative processes, where the people governed by the process don't care until it effects them and when it actually does become relevant it is often found that the system is broken.

As for testing, I am personally ambivalent about it. As implemented it doesn't seem designed to address the problem, if one exits. For instance, the odds of a top level rider that reaches the podium regularly being test are dramatically higher than others. I also read in another thread posted by someone in the "know" that SX doesn't test the 250 class. If the object of testing is to insure that the elite members of the 450 class are tested, then, it accomplishes this goal. If the goal is to eliminate use in SX in general, it appears to statistically fall way short of reaching this objective.

However, it looks like testing is here to stay. Given this, a few simple things could be changed to improve the system such as:

1. Shorten the time periods between test date and decision date. (Suggestion of 90 days from the date of test to decision)
2. Make available to the public the decision and relevant hearing dates.
3. Have a viable appeal process that doesn't take for ever. (I'd like to see this done and over with in 60 days)
4. Better defined punishments for the infraction involved to avoid apparent disparate punishment.
5. Finally and of least concern, is there really a need to hearings, etc. in Europe for what is essentially a North America series?

This entire process doesn't really seem to be rocket science. It basically appears to breakdown to (1) did the rider test for a prohibited substance, (2) if so is there a TUE or other exemption, (3) if no exemption, are there factors that mitigate the punishment. Pretty easy questions to answer. Of course I may be over simplifying things.

Anyway just some thoughts.

Are your suggestions in regards to the FIM or WADA?
robkinuk
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3/18/2015 3:31pm
Anyone know where I can get an Adderall prescription?..........to keep up with this ongoing saga?Wink Smile
2thefront
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3/18/2015 3:32pm
TeamGreen wrote:
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get? 2 years. That's what "I don't get"...
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get?

2 years.

That's what "I don't get": 2 years for INTENTIONAL AND DILIBERATE USE OF AN EPO versus 16 months for failure to file and acknowledged "Valid TUE".

That's my only complaint. I can understnd the DQ'ing of any results from the affected time period that he lacked a TUE and a penalty that MAKES SENSE.

The Penalties for those that're intentionally CHEATING is virtually the same as this TUE SNAFU.

I would think that this is a valid reason for an appeal to CAS.
It's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact. Just because he got a TUE after the fact doesn't mean there was no intention to take adderall as a PED. While a TUE is more than just paperwork, there is a lot of people in the anti doping world that think they are being exploited. It's not hard for rich people to find doctors that will diagnose them in order to try and get a TUE. This is serious business. If you want a serious effort to keep PED usage down, there can be no judgement of intent.
3/18/2015 4:14pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2015 4:15pm
TeamGreen wrote:
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get? 2 years. That's what "I don't get"...
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get?

2 years.

That's what "I don't get": 2 years for INTENTIONAL AND DILIBERATE USE OF AN EPO versus 16 months for failure to file and acknowledged "Valid TUE".

That's my only complaint. I can understnd the DQ'ing of any results from the affected time period that he lacked a TUE and a penalty that MAKES SENSE.

The Penalties for those that're intentionally CHEATING is virtually the same as this TUE SNAFU.

I would think that this is a valid reason for an appeal to CAS.
2thefront wrote:
It's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact. Just because he got a TUE after the fact doesn't mean there was no...
It's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact. Just because he got a TUE after the fact doesn't mean there was no intention to take adderall as a PED. While a TUE is more than just paperwork, there is a lot of people in the anti doping world that think they are being exploited. It's not hard for rich people to find doctors that will diagnose them in order to try and get a TUE. This is serious business. If you want a serious effort to keep PED usage down, there can be no judgement of intent.
bingo what people on this site have a hard time understanding is there is no test to prove that you have adhd. almost every single pro athlete that is approved to use adderall is using to cheat and is the fastest growing ped in sports.
dkg
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3/18/2015 4:25pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
Are your suggestions in regards to the FIM or WADA?
Primarily the FIM Anti-Doping Code.
ando
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3/18/2015 6:17pm
moer wrote:
You understand that being predictable and fair are two different things, right? The goal of being predictable is to be fair yes but it doesn't make...
You understand that being predictable and fair are two different things, right? The goal of being predictable is to be fair yes but it doesn't make any sense to be unfair just to be predictable. In this case the sentence doesn't fit the crime plain and simple. Do you really think that everyone (James, Suzuki, Feld, AMA, FIM, other racers, teams..) agreed to every little clause of this?
Do you really think everyone had trouble reading and understanding all 60 pages of the technical and procedural rules for Supercross?

I'd bet my last dollar that at least a few people on every major team know the technical regs inside and out.
ando
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3/18/2015 6:21pm
moer wrote:
Do they (riders and teams) really sign something? It looks more that everyone agreed that testing needs to be done. Not sure who agreed to the...
Do they (riders and teams) really sign something? It looks more that everyone agreed that testing needs to be done. Not sure who agreed to the terms but to me it doesn't look like the AMA agreed with the "predictable" descision.

http://www.vitalmx.com/features/The-AMA-Comes-to-James-Stewarts-Defense,3667?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=spotlight#.VJJUxd6Kf4s.twitter
It's in the rule book.
ando
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3/18/2015 6:30pm
TeamGreen wrote:
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get? 2 years. That's what "I don't get"...
So, a World Class Marathon Champion, Rita Jeptoo, gets caught taking EPO...that's an INTENTIONAL PED...and what does she get?

2 years.

That's what "I don't get": 2 years for INTENTIONAL AND DILIBERATE USE OF AN EPO versus 16 months for failure to file and acknowledged "Valid TUE".

That's my only complaint. I can understnd the DQ'ing of any results from the affected time period that he lacked a TUE and a penalty that MAKES SENSE.

The Penalties for those that're intentionally CHEATING is virtually the same as this TUE SNAFU.

I would think that this is a valid reason for an appeal to CAS.
2thefront wrote:
It's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact. Just because he got a TUE after the fact doesn't mean there was no...
It's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact. Just because he got a TUE after the fact doesn't mean there was no intention to take adderall as a PED. While a TUE is more than just paperwork, there is a lot of people in the anti doping world that think they are being exploited. It's not hard for rich people to find doctors that will diagnose them in order to try and get a TUE. This is serious business. If you want a serious effort to keep PED usage down, there can be no judgement of intent.
bingo what people on this site have a hard time understanding is there is no test to prove that you have adhd. almost every single pro...
bingo what people on this site have a hard time understanding is there is no test to prove that you have adhd. almost every single pro athlete that is approved to use adderall is using to cheat and is the fastest growing ped in sports.
I don't think it's as much to do with the specifics of ADHD; more about the first sentence that 2thefront wrote "it's hard to judge what's cheating and what's not after the fact".

There's been some anecdotal evidence thrown around that James was taking Adderall for several years. Let's assume for the moment that's true and James used it as part of his evidence to justify his therapeutic use. How do you think that looks in the eyes of the panel who are adjudicating the case?

So for two years an athlete takes a banned substance without bothering to submit a TUE. It's either ignorance and/or stupidity that borders on what is believable, or it's intentional use. How do you tell the difference?
FreshTopEnd
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3/18/2015 9:10pm
Part of the problem is that sports feel pressure to have some program to eliminate PED for the values it projects as keeping a sport clean, and legitimacy claim of clean competition to the outside world. That's a fine ideal in the abstract. In reality, many sports can't bear the cost of setting their own system up, so they buy in to the USADA or WADA regimes. That makes sense if you feel you need that sort of program, it's efficient, but you get a one-size-fits-all approach across a lot of different sports (some variations for in competition prohibitions, but not penalties). This raises proportionality issues that people are trying to work out. For example, a competition year for Stew is 27+ races and two championships. A track sprinter in a year may have a different competition/championship schedule, and a one year ban could have a different impact on that athlete's professional opportunity.

If a sport sets up it's own system and does not sign on to the World Doping Code, that organization would have the ability to weight its penalties to the rhythm of its schedule and season, but I'd bet the cost of going alone on that and implementing a meaningful testing program would be orders of magnitude more expensive than buying into the WADA system. I don't think any self contained system the MC world came up with could be effective without being prohibitively expensive.
kongols
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3/30/2015 11:16pm
Today`s the day. I doubt we`ll hear the verdict for a couple of weeks, but I`m sure someone will leak it.

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