Our strategy has to change

Crush
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9/28/2014 11:45pm Edited Date/Time 9/28/2014 11:46pm
Perhaps they could have a bit more variation in track surfaces and preparation in the US nationals...
willie838
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9/28/2014 11:53pm
The strategy is to send the best racers we have to the event. We sent the number 2 450 guy in the American series. The champion...
The strategy is to send the best racers we have to the event.
We sent the number 2 450 guy in the American series.
The champion of the 250 class.
And the best third choice for the second 450 ride.

Riders will have bad motos and hindsight is always 20/20.
yup.

martin was hurt and struggled, who knows tf happened to dunge in moto 2 and why tomac stalled out moving forward in moto 1.

---

people can bitch at RD over the result but here's the thing to remember- the dude answers the bell every time. No excuses- inconvenient, travel, sore, tired- no nothing. Shows up for his country and does his best, which appears to be a thankless job given the amount of whinging going on here.

france took it to us. hats off to them.
TDeath21
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9/29/2014 12:10am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2014 12:11am
In the US winning streak from 05-11, only once (06) did a US rider not win a moto. That year, the US got three 2nds and a 3rd though, so one other halfway decent finish would usually do it in that case. Point being, you have to have a leader on your team step up and get two top three finishes and most likely win a moto.

I also think it's definitely worth noting that the best rider in the world has been absent from the event the past three seasons, and that rider has won his class every time he's gone and went 4-0 as a team. That has to play a huge part.
Power180
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9/29/2014 12:47am
TDeath21 wrote:
In the US winning streak from 05-11, only once (06) did a US rider not win a moto. That year, the US got three 2nds and...
In the US winning streak from 05-11, only once (06) did a US rider not win a moto. That year, the US got three 2nds and a 3rd though, so one other halfway decent finish would usually do it in that case. Point being, you have to have a leader on your team step up and get two top three finishes and most likely win a moto.

I also think it's definitely worth noting that the best rider in the world has been absent from the event the past three seasons, and that rider has won his class every time he's gone and went 4-0 as a team. That has to play a huge part.
herlings rode at lommel, so he wasn't absent?

The Shop

Jimfunn
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9/29/2014 12:54am
Maybe they need their fans to support them even if they don't win like all the other countries do...
Power180
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9/29/2014 1:01am
I don't think its anything to do with your strategy, dean Wilson had the same amount of time to bike test and prep for Latvia and was even riding a bigger bike than he's used to (yes I know he's rode 450's before) and he had good results. The simply fact is that most you America guys don't give the euro riders enough credit and just expect to turn up and win. Us euro fans know and appreciate how fast some of your riders are, tomac was hauling in that second race!!, Dungey had a very good 1st race and Martin rode well to say he had broken toes. Dungeys 2nd race result could be down to how rough the track was - Wilson has said it was 1 of the roughest and gnarliest tracks he's ever rode. I know our gates in mxgp aren't full, but the talent that is on the gates is extremely good, for me the ama riders are also very good up till 10th place. Herlings would have smoked everyone yesterday FACT, no ifs or buts, the dude is a serious beast. Im also a big dungey fan and don't think he deserves the bad press hes getting, hes always up there in ama, and only lost out to Roczen (another fast euro) for title at laat round. Congrats to France, and also well done team GB so so close, shame bout simpsons bike in both races.
Sideways
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9/29/2014 1:32am
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in...
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in, and it's really that simple. Our strategy was fine and I'm pretty sure DeCoster knows what he's doing.
haha thats the funniest shit ive read in awhile! "If this mxon was done over 10 times we would win eventually"

You should thank the rock that hit simpsons chain. Without that rock you would have missed the podium.
9/29/2014 1:36am
The US riders have to come 1-2 weeks earlier to the event.They have to adjust bike setup on several identic tracks like the mxon track.It is the most presticious event of the year and you have to put more effort and heart in it.Your team was and is every year the best collective of racers.You have to be better prepared,no more no less!!!!
conwaymx
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9/29/2014 1:39am
I just don't see how you can expect to arrive two days before the race and take on guys who already have setup info for that track. Tomac and Martin tested at a peewee track, Dungey didn't test as all because it confuses him(!?!) then spent free practice sorting his suspension out.

The guys need to prepare for the race, get used to the time difference, the temperature, everything. Like any professional sport the days of just rolling up and winning races aren't realistic anymore.



GoonSquad250x
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9/29/2014 1:54am
Zracer wrote:
I have a ton of respect for Martin and what he did. Respect for Tomac charging like a madman when they had already lost. Respect for...
I have a ton of respect for Martin and what he did. Respect for Tomac charging like a madman when they had already lost. Respect for Dungey for delaying plans and heading into the fire AGAIN. I have very little respect for your opinion or Hillbillys that money is more important than some pride and having the balls to go. You think Semics risked any less when he raced mxdn? You think RC risked any less when he raced the mxdn? Hell no. They all risked injury and career to be there, For the love of the sport, For the history of mx. For pride. Im sorry if you guys dont have any pride and think life is only about money. Luckily many of our top pros still have some.balls.
Boom!!! This right here.
jamma10
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9/29/2014 2:11am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2014 5:39am
It is a team issue. We go over 5 days before...ride for a day or two...try to figure out the settings and compete. It wont work...
It is a team issue. We go over 5 days before...ride for a day or two...try to figure out the settings and compete. It wont work. The problem is there is not enough money and resources to take the step to even the playing field. The reverse is true when the MXON is in the US. Watch 2017.....

The GP tracks are a lot different. The flow is different. The jump faces are not as steep. There are a lot of jumps where you just go fast and OJ..and get those hard flat or even uphill landings. The jumps and landings seem more forgiving...but that only means you can OJ and slam into them faster. Come up short or slam down into a face at an AMA track and you go over the bars. But on a GP track...you see guys taking those fast hits and soldiering on. This changes how you ride, and it changes the bike set up especially. This is something that our teams and riders do not know as well as the GP guys. THAT is where we are getting beat.

This is not exclusively a skill or ability problem for a our riders...it is a problem with respect to the whole team (rider, suspension tuner, mechanic, etc) getting the set up dialed, and anticipating how to change it as the event goes on. The fact that Tomac was so much faster in his 2nd Moto is a sign how far off they were in the settings.

The GP "semi-sandy" track style of riding that is great for guy like Tomac...IF he has the bike close. He can just go fast and bash the crap out of everything. Baggett would do well I think also. RV would be great too. Dunge...not so much. He is just not that type or rider. I think a guy like Cooper Webb would do well on (the sand type) GP tracks. Adam C...not so much...he is a finesse guy. Stew in his reckless prime...yeah. Stew now...not so much. But no matter what...the bike has to be right. In many cases, for a GP track...the set up that will work the best may not feel comfortable or normal for our AMA guys. It takes time work work through that and get the bike right.

Load two Geico Honda rig, or the factory Kawi rigs up on ships...and spend a month testing with suspension guys in EU prior to the event...what do you think the results would be? You would see every US rider going like ET went in Moto 2
'The jump faces are not as steep. There are a lot of jumps where you just go fast and OJ..and get those hard flat or even uphill landings. The jumps and landings seem more forgiving...but that only means you can OJ and slam into them faster. Come up short or slam down into a face at an AMA track and you go over the bars. But on a GP track...you see guys taking those fast hits and soldiering on. This changes how you ride, and it changes the bike set up especially. This is something that our teams and riders do not know as well as the GP guys. THAT is where we are getting beat.;

That's not really true. There might be a few more mellow, forgiving styles of jumps at Lommel or Kegums, but thats because they suit that style of circuit and the jump faces and landings begin to break down meaning you can hit them harder - just like Southwick!

On the whole GP tracks vary quite a lot but generic tabletops or doubles with steep take offs and landings are common place.

9/29/2014 2:53am
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in...
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in, and it's really that simple. Our strategy was fine and I'm pretty sure DeCoster knows what he's doing.
Sideways wrote:
haha thats the funniest shit ive read in awhile! "If this mxon was done over 10 times we would win eventually" You should thank the rock...
haha thats the funniest shit ive read in awhile! "If this mxon was done over 10 times we would win eventually"

You should thank the rock that hit simpsons chain. Without that rock you would have missed the podium.
It's too bad you don't understand probabilities and sample sizes, or you wouldn't have missed my point and posted a foolish comment. BTW, we don't care about podiums.
Huckster
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9/29/2014 3:52am
Zracer wrote:
Balls and pride. Try google.
Huckster wrote:
Thats BS and so disrespectful to these guys. They have proven that they have balls and pride or they wouldn't be where they are at. Every...
Thats BS and so disrespectful to these guys. They have proven that they have balls and pride or they wouldn't be where they are at. Every one of them has busted their ass and made untold sacrifices to be at the top level. Fact is this is a ONE OFF race and no longer has the significance to the riders that it once did. The game has changed. Johnny O, Bailey and the boys of the 80's and 90's were where the Euro's are now. They were trying to prove a point that they were just as good. The sport has changed and there is now way too much at stake for these guys to go over there and lay it on the line. Do any of them have a bonus tied to their MXoN performance? Throw away the pride card. Hillbilly hit the nail on the head. Thats not to take anything away from the GP riders. They are GREAT riders and can compete with our best on any given day. Roczen proved that as have the other GP riders that have come over and had success but Freddy Noran doesn't sniff Tomac or Dungey's exhaust on his best day in the series that matter and guys get paychecks for.......
Zracer wrote:
I have a ton of respect for Martin and what he did. Respect for Tomac charging like a madman when they had already lost. Respect for...
I have a ton of respect for Martin and what he did. Respect for Tomac charging like a madman when they had already lost. Respect for Dungey for delaying plans and heading into the fire AGAIN. I have very little respect for your opinion or Hillbillys that money is more important than some pride and having the balls to go. You think Semics risked any less when he raced mxdn? You think RC risked any less when he raced the mxdn? Hell no. They all risked injury and career to be there, For the love of the sport, For the history of mx. For pride. Im sorry if you guys dont have any pride and think life is only about money. Luckily many of our top pros still have some.balls.
Ken Roczen, the fastest man on the planet right now, didn't go. He was healthy! Does he not have balls and pride? Your rhetoric is just that. Have pride, wave the flag, do it for the USofA......That is all great and I am pretty sure the three riders who did go have tons of pride and tried their best, but the race is just not the same anymore. Sure we all want to wax nostalgically about the days of past and Johnny O sweeping the race on a 125. When our boys were underdogs and the Euro's were at the top. We have won more MXoN than any other country, 22 and we didn't lose one from '81-93. We won 7 in a row from '05-11 and now have lost 3 in row. We used to go over and prepare and now not so much. Sure we go but the team does not prepare like the used to. In the big picture, it no longer matters as much to the people that matter. Sure us vitaltards love this weekend because we get to either bang or chest or eat crow but to the industry, I am not so sure that its more of a burden more than an honor.
9/29/2014 3:52am
jbomx363 wrote:
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead. USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all...
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead.

USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all freaky things except for the poor starts....otherwise..who knows how it would shake out..but believe USA would of been on top.


Congrats to France!

Talent wise..USA is still ahead.
3 years results sheets on the bounce may disagree.

FFS just admit it to yourself, don't blame injuries, don't blame mechanicals, don't blame starts, tracks, food or any of that shit.

you win together and lose together, that's racing.

Huckster
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9/29/2014 4:11am
jbomx363 wrote:
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead. USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all...
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead.

USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all freaky things except for the poor starts....otherwise..who knows how it would shake out..but believe USA would of been on top.


Congrats to France!

Talent wise..USA is still ahead.
3 years results sheets on the bounce may disagree. FFS just admit it to yourself, don't blame injuries, don't blame mechanicals, don't blame starts, tracks, food...
3 years results sheets on the bounce may disagree.

FFS just admit it to yourself, don't blame injuries, don't blame mechanicals, don't blame starts, tracks, food or any of that shit.

you win together and lose together, that's racing.

22 total wins, 7 in a row from 05-'11 and didn't lose from 81-93. France earned it this year as did Belgium and Germany the last 2 but don't forget the history. It doesn't lie.....
9/29/2014 4:15am
If tomac won you'd still ha e come 3rd
I didnt say Tomac winning would have made any difference in the team competition, I was addressing the idiotic comment from mohammed that in 9 motos...
I didnt say Tomac winning would have made any difference in the team competition, I was addressing the idiotic comment from mohammed that in 9 motos no US rider had won because the GP riders were faster, when the fact is last year and this year Tomac was clearly the fastest rider of the weekend.
Chad Reed was 5th fastest in quali I believe ? does that mean he would have finished 5th?

Mohammed talked sense, you didn't.

Tomac was ultra quick yes and a delight to see him at his best, but across the race he wasn't the fastest, last year or this year, end of story.

oh and for the record when he did his "superman crash" as you call it he was chasing Roczen, that's your national champ that probably isn't as fast as Tomac either.
9/29/2014 5:14am
TDeath21 wrote:
In the US winning streak from 05-11, only once (06) did a US rider not win a moto. That year, the US got three 2nds and...
In the US winning streak from 05-11, only once (06) did a US rider not win a moto. That year, the US got three 2nds and a 3rd though, so one other halfway decent finish would usually do it in that case. Point being, you have to have a leader on your team step up and get two top three finishes and most likely win a moto.

I also think it's definitely worth noting that the best rider in the world has been absent from the event the past three seasons, and that rider has won his class every time he's gone and went 4-0 as a team. That has to play a huge part.
Power180 wrote:
herlings rode at lommel, so he wasn't absent?
excellent Cool
9/29/2014 5:19am
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in...
I think if that entire weekend is done over 10 times, the USA wins it at least 5. An injury and bad starts did us in, and it's really that simple. Our strategy was fine and I'm pretty sure DeCoster knows what he's doing.
Sideways wrote:
haha thats the funniest shit ive read in awhile! "If this mxon was done over 10 times we would win eventually" You should thank the rock...
haha thats the funniest shit ive read in awhile! "If this mxon was done over 10 times we would win eventually"

You should thank the rock that hit simpsons chain. Without that rock you would have missed the podium.
It's too bad you don't understand probabilities and sample sizes, or you wouldn't have missed my point and posted a foolish comment. BTW, we don't care...
It's too bad you don't understand probabilities and sample sizes, or you wouldn't have missed my point and posted a foolish comment. BTW, we don't care about podiums.
The problem with your statement is that the formula you are trying to apply is out dated, things have moved on.

5 FROM 10 MY ARSE

Wake up dude, times are changing, and you're sleeping through everything that's great about the world..
9/29/2014 5:38am
jbomx363 wrote:
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead. USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all...
One off race.If this was run week in and week out...USA would be way ahead.

USA couldn't get a start..Martin hurt..bot riders down in last moto....all freaky things except for the poor starts....otherwise..who knows how it would shake out..but believe USA would of been on top.


Congrats to France!

Talent wise..USA is still ahead.
3 years results sheets on the bounce may disagree. FFS just admit it to yourself, don't blame injuries, don't blame mechanicals, don't blame starts, tracks, food...
3 years results sheets on the bounce may disagree.

FFS just admit it to yourself, don't blame injuries, don't blame mechanicals, don't blame starts, tracks, food or any of that shit.

you win together and lose together, that's racing.

Huckster wrote:
22 total wins, 7 in a row from 05-'11 and didn't lose from 81-93. France earned it this year as did Belgium and Germany the last...
22 total wins, 7 in a row from 05-'11 and didn't lose from 81-93. France earned it this year as did Belgium and Germany the last 2 but don't forget the history. It doesn't lie.....
You're right, and I believe GB are 2nd in wins in history with more than its share of bad luck, the point here is what?

No doubt USA earned their wins regardless of other teams bad luck, but that's racing and that's my point, don't complain when luck doesn't go your way, you have had your fair share of good luck in comparison and if you know the history you will agree.

History doesn't care about excuses and what if, but, or maybe and neither do I. A lot on here should try, it's refreshing.
DC
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9/29/2014 6:04am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2014 9:23am
So let me see if I understand this: Team USA has one rider break his foot on Saturday in a set of rolling whoops that look a lot like the ones in his backyard (the Millville Whoops at Spring Creek ARE literally his back yard) , another rider crashes off the start twice but is the fastest man on the track that last moto, and the third rider gets second in the opening moto to a superb Gautier Paulin, and then has problems in the last moto after an early crash... and it's our track prep's fault?

Gang, did anyone walk Glen Helen or Unadilla or RedBud after the races to see how rough they were? Does anyone not see the huge differences between, say, RedBud and Miller, or Hangtown and High Point? Do you realize that we haven't been "smoothing the tracks out" for years because we only have about 12 minutes between motos?

Why can't we give Team France credit for winning as a team, staying off the ground, riding consistently fast and smart, and having the outright winner of both motos? Why can't we give Belgium's Red Knights credit for backing up last year's win with another solid outing here behind a couple fast and smart veterans?

We had some problems and we lost. Tony Cairoli also crashed and had bad starts and under-performed as a result of his injured knee -- are the Italians blaming the GP tracks? Chad Reed didn't get 50 feet off the starting gate -- is that Anaheim's fault? Shawn Simpson's chain fell off -- blame it on Hawkstone Park?

Our guys raced hard, gave it hell and but still lost. Give them credit for spending five extra weeks trying to stay in outdoor shape and keep testing and then traveling across the world to race with the rest of the world's best while everyone else is here is switching teams, taking time off, practicing supercross for 2015.

We should be proud of their efforts, disappointed in defeat, but gracious and respectful too.

DC
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DC
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9/29/2014 6:08am


hellion
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9/29/2014 6:11am
Stop making sense.
Madmax31
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9/29/2014 6:13am
DC wrote:
So let me see if I understand this: Team USA has one rider break his foot on Saturday in a set of rolling whoops that look...
So let me see if I understand this: Team USA has one rider break his foot on Saturday in a set of rolling whoops that look a lot like the ones in his backyard (the Millville Whoops at Spring Creek ARE literally his back yard) , another rider crashes off the start twice but is the fastest man on the track that last moto, and the third rider gets second in the opening moto to a superb Gautier Paulin, and then has problems in the last moto after an early crash... and it's our track prep's fault?

Gang, did anyone walk Glen Helen or Unadilla or RedBud after the races to see how rough they were? Does anyone not see the huge differences between, say, RedBud and Miller, or Hangtown and High Point? Do you realize that we haven't been "smoothing the tracks out" for years because we only have about 12 minutes between motos?

Why can't we give Team France credit for winning as a team, staying off the ground, riding consistently fast and smart, and having the outright winner of both motos? Why can't we give Belgium's Red Knights credit for backing up last year's win with another solid outing here behind a couple fast and smart veterans?

We had some problems and we lost. Tony Cairoli also crashed and had bad starts and under-performed as a result of his injured knee -- are the Italians blaming the GP tracks? Chad Reed didn't get 50 feet off the starting gate -- is that Anaheim's fault? Shawn Simpson's chain fell off -- blame it on Hawkstone Park?

Our guys raced hard, gave it hell and but still lost. Give them credit for spending five extra weeks trying to stay in outdoor shape and keep testing and then traveling across the world to race with the rest of the world's best while everyone else is here is switching teams, taking time off, practicing supercross for 2015.

We should be proud of their efforts, disappointed in defeat, but gracious and respectful too.

DC
MX Sports

Very well said. You can't expect Vitards to do anything else but find excuses, and put down other countries. Congrats to all, and the best team that day won.

DC
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9/29/2014 6:14am


-eagle-
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9/29/2014 6:17am
Anyone watch the 250 motos from dilla and shogal this year?
Crush
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9/29/2014 6:21am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2014 6:21am
Totally agree DC... Starts and bad luck!

I think the US riders comments about track roughness might be due to surfaces and the longer practices, more riders, longer weekend of the MXdN.

I still however, would like to see a couple more shitty skatey hardpack tracks like Washougal (Teutschenthal) and at least one deep sand track.

You get to answer as to how tho, and I know for sure that's not easy... good luck! Smile

PS. That track above could be about 10 feet wider haha
cmilktm
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9/29/2014 6:36am
DC wrote:
So let me see if I understand this: Team USA has one rider break his foot on Saturday in a set of rolling whoops that look...
So let me see if I understand this: Team USA has one rider break his foot on Saturday in a set of rolling whoops that look a lot like the ones in his backyard (the Millville Whoops at Spring Creek ARE literally his back yard) , another rider crashes off the start twice but is the fastest man on the track that last moto, and the third rider gets second in the opening moto to a superb Gautier Paulin, and then has problems in the last moto after an early crash... and it's our track prep's fault?

Gang, did anyone walk Glen Helen or Unadilla or RedBud after the races to see how rough they were? Does anyone not see the huge differences between, say, RedBud and Miller, or Hangtown and High Point? Do you realize that we haven't been "smoothing the tracks out" for years because we only have about 12 minutes between motos?

Why can't we give Team France credit for winning as a team, staying off the ground, riding consistently fast and smart, and having the outright winner of both motos? Why can't we give Belgium's Red Knights credit for backing up last year's win with another solid outing here behind a couple fast and smart veterans?

We had some problems and we lost. Tony Cairoli also crashed and had bad starts and under-performed as a result of his injured knee -- are the Italians blaming the GP tracks? Chad Reed didn't get 50 feet off the starting gate -- is that Anaheim's fault? Shawn Simpson's chain fell off -- blame it on Hawkstone Park?

Our guys raced hard, gave it hell and but still lost. Give them credit for spending five extra weeks trying to stay in outdoor shape and keep testing and then traveling across the world to race with the rest of the world's best while everyone else is here is switching teams, taking time off, practicing supercross for 2015.

We should be proud of their efforts, disappointed in defeat, but gracious and respectful too.

DC
MX Sports

Madmax31 wrote:
Very well said. You can't expect Vitards to do anything else but find excuses, and put down other countries. Congrats to all, and the best team...
Very well said. You can't expect Vitards to do anything else but find excuses, and put down other countries. Congrats to all, and the best team that day won.

I agree! I mean who expected the French to win! Way to go France,
I do feel that the American marketing machine to get the races on tv is creating a bit too specialized racing here in America and it's showing at the GP level.
As long as American MX needs sponsor dollars this is not going to change drastically until the economy runs wild again.
So give credit where credit is due!
I think it's great is that it shows no matter where you come from if you have the talent and desire you can win on any given day!
A lot of these riders want a chance to prove they deserve a ride and an opportunity no matter where they are from or where it takes them
What a day to make a statement.
Bagging on the team is not going to make any new riders want to setup up to the pressure for the criticism in the future!
Congrats to the winners and riders on the podium!
DC
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9/29/2014 6:37am
That's the inside line of the split rows in the last turn at Red Bud, that's only half the track you are seeing...

DC
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Crush
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9/29/2014 6:39am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2014 6:41am
I know mate, i'm just busting balls! I was also referring to my nationals comments earlier in the year... I think every track could be about 10 feet wider!

I've also been landed on haha...
9/29/2014 6:40am
machine wrote:
Hell Yes, preach it!!!...patriotism...some got it ..some don't..some need it!.
Some need to realize that making changes for the simple sake of making changes can make things worse.
My points still stand:
What team manager makes Martin not break his foot,
And
Dungey/Tomac's first turn crash?

Do you honestly think DeCoster told Tomac and Dungey not to try and win and instead settle into 11th place?

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