#5 first moto first turn

h&m_cycle
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h&m_cycle 8/17/2014 9:12pm
8/17/2014 9:12pm
bvm111 wrote:
Wow.... Really? Where was he supposed to go? He swapped so hard in foot deep mud, explain to me what else he was suppose to do...
Wow.... Really?

Where was he supposed to go?

He swapped so hard in foot deep mud, explain to me what else he was suppose to do? Add to that there were banners all the way around the area he rode how else was he supposed to re enter the track?

It's funny how every week you same guys come on here and clame what was "obvious" or "blatant cheating" maybe the teams need to hire you guys to ensure the rules are followed with absolute black and white accuracy since the AMA, MX sports, and all the teams obviously can't perform this duty!
Are you kidding me??? watch it again, look @ those 2 hay bales there, Dungey rode right around them. he was stopped, or close to it.

turn the handle bars & ride the track... OR let him go straight past the haybales & join @ the complete back. (Except) for
anyone who fell in the first turn. so he should of joined in about 36 place.

he ran off the track during the race @ highpoint & did the same damn thing on that cross rut, he speeds up & gets away
with it.
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/17/2014 9:21pm
8/17/2014 9:21pm
implicate order wrote:
Blatant cheating? You may want to watch it again. Dungey was in 6th place when he went off the track and did not gain an advantage...
Blatant cheating? You may want to watch it again. Dungey was in 6th place when he went off the track and did not gain an advantage. The same riders that were ahead of him when he went off were ahead of him when he came back on.

MX455 wrote:
You might want to check again. When he got into the slop he was is 6th, but not off the track. By the time he made...
You might want to check again. When he got into the slop he was is 6th, but not off the track. By the time he made it to the side of the track he was much further back. In this photo he is at best 12th yet he comes out top ten? Therefor he had to have passed people while he wasn't on the track.



A mistake is a mistake. They need to stop cutting giant sections of the track, banners or not. As far as safety goes why aren't the made to wait and re- enter when possible? Noren hit the gate maybe he should have been able to cut the first 4 corners to catch back up.
implicate order wrote:
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was...
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was ahead of all those riders in your screen shot. He was 6th, at most, 7th, when he went off. Take the blinders off.
He doesn't go off the track til he passes the bale at the start of the banners. Up to that point there are no markers on the left side of the track that would imply an 'edge'. The bale at the start of the banners would qualify, though, per the rule book. Therefore, he's at best in 12th position when he actually leaves the race track, and he's in a much better position when he reenters.
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 8/17/2014 9:23pm
8/17/2014 9:23pm
DC wrote:
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud...
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud and didn't risk going back through twice -- and proceeded to the next hole in the fence. Could he have gone slower? Sure. But had he tried to get back on right there, in three feet of mud, he would not have made it out, just like Cairoli in Sweden last year.

We are trying to make the starts safer and we will be clamping down more on the "blow-off" line so you have to slow done. But I don't want to see a guy hitting a wall of hay bales or a wire or a medic. There has to be some middle ground -- safety without advantage when you go off the track on the start -- and are working on it. There are hay bales there, and he went around them at a slower speed than those 250s at Unadilla.

DC
MX Sports
APLMAN99 wrote:
If the ground was solid enough for him to roost for 15-25 feet before he got to the banners, he should have been able to get...
If the ground was solid enough for him to roost for 15-25 feet before he got to the banners, he should have been able to get on top of or through the mud at the edge of the track. Also, at what point do you guys start enforcing the newly written rule, about riders slowing down when they exit the course? if that rule isn't ever going to be enforced, what was the reason for changing it this year?

On-Track Regulations
a. Riders must remain on the marked course. The course will be marked by Acerbis track markers, boundary markers, hay bales, Tuff Blocks, dirt mounds, etc.. If the marking devices are knocked down, the rider must stay on the original marked course.

b. A rider leaving the course may continue the race by properly re-entering the course at the closest point to where the rider left the course, without gaining an advantage. If a rider leaves the course for any reason, the rider must immediately slow down to a safe speed so as not to endanger life or limb of other riders, crew members, officials, or the public. It will be the responsibility of the Race Director or his designee to determine whether the rider gained an advantage upon re-entry or failed to slow down after leaving the course. A rider may be determined to have gained an advantage without gaining a position.
bd wrote:
You know what comes to mind - Villopoto 2013 A1 when he went around a complete rhythm section. Although he finished in the back of the...
You know what comes to mind - Villopoto 2013 A1 when he went around a complete rhythm section. Although he finished in the back of the pack, it was an enouromus advantage of not entering before the section (in other words, he would have been passed by Goerke and Windham).

http://youtu.be/Qrrku9wnLRk?t=4m33s
I assume that it was situations like that one that led to the change in the rule. But despite the change in the rule, the enforcement seems to have remained based on the old rule.
h&m_cycle
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h&m_cycle 8/17/2014 9:26pm
8/17/2014 9:26pm
according to Motocross Action Mag. this is what was added by the AMA for 2014

LEAVING THE TRACK AT SPEED DURING THE RACE
A rider leaving the course must reenter the track at the closest safe point from where he left the course and he cannot gain an advantage (although avoiding a crash by leaving the course is obviously gaining an advantage).

The rider may not accelerate in an unsafe manner. The Race Director will determine if the rider accelerated.

The penalty for gaining an advantage while off-course will be the loss of the number of positions gained plus one additional position. If no positions were gained, the penalty will be the loss of one position in the final results.

LEAVING THE TRACK AT SPEED DURING TIMED QUALIFYING
The penalty for gaining an advantage while off-course during qualifying will be the loss of the rider’s fastest lap time during that session.

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plowboy
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plowboy 8/17/2014 9:37pm
8/17/2014 9:37pm
DC wrote:
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud...
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud and didn't risk going back through twice -- and proceeded to the next hole in the fence. Could he have gone slower? Sure. But had he tried to get back on right there, in three feet of mud, he would not have made it out, just like Cairoli in Sweden last year.

We are trying to make the starts safer and we will be clamping down more on the "blow-off" line so you have to slow done. But I don't want to see a guy hitting a wall of hay bales or a wire or a medic. There has to be some middle ground -- safety without advantage when you go off the track on the start -- and are working on it. There are hay bales there, and he went around them at a slower speed than those 250s at Unadilla.

DC
MX Sports
Why must you always come on here and act all level headed and full of common sense...Silly Thanks for the input.
enketchum
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enketchum 8/17/2014 10:06pm
8/17/2014 10:06pm
What media player is that on the first page? What a piece of garbage. When you click to play one, every one of them that is quoted starts playing at the same time.

And h&m_cycle get rid of that Youtube video in your signature. Cmon man
scottydogmx 8/17/2014 10:35pm
8/17/2014 10:35pm
I reckon it should be let go unless we reach the last round and Roczen has a dnf in the first moto then he should be penalized the advantage points so the winner of the last moto takes the championship!Woohoo
implicate order 8/17/2014 10:48pm
8/17/2014 10:48pm
MX455 wrote:
You might want to check again. When he got into the slop he was is 6th, but not off the track. By the time he made...
You might want to check again. When he got into the slop he was is 6th, but not off the track. By the time he made it to the side of the track he was much further back. In this photo he is at best 12th yet he comes out top ten? Therefor he had to have passed people while he wasn't on the track.



A mistake is a mistake. They need to stop cutting giant sections of the track, banners or not. As far as safety goes why aren't the made to wait and re- enter when possible? Noren hit the gate maybe he should have been able to cut the first 4 corners to catch back up.
implicate order wrote:
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was...
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was ahead of all those riders in your screen shot. He was 6th, at most, 7th, when he went off. Take the blinders off.
APLMAN99 wrote:
He doesn't go off the track til he passes the bale at the start of the banners. Up to that point there are no markers on...
He doesn't go off the track til he passes the bale at the start of the banners. Up to that point there are no markers on the left side of the track that would imply an 'edge'. The bale at the start of the banners would qualify, though, per the rule book. Therefore, he's at best in 12th position when he actually leaves the race track, and he's in a much better position when he reenters.
Nope. Watch the video on page one and freeze frame it. His front tire is off the track and he is in 7th place. Anyone who says he gained some advantage either hasn't watched the video or is seeing what they want to see. 12th position is simply laughable.
implicate order 8/17/2014 10:51pm
8/17/2014 10:51pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Bottom line is he PASSED guys while OFF the track and that should NEVER be legal. "Next safest place" is way too much of a gray...
Bottom line is he PASSED guys while OFF the track and that should NEVER be legal. "Next safest place" is way too much of a gray area and allows the riders, while in the heat of the moment, to make a judgement call. It needs a major overhaul.
No, he didn't pass guys. He was at worse, 7th when he went off the track.
Motocross83 8/18/2014 12:35am
8/18/2014 12:35am
Whether he passed riders or not (he did imo) he was still unfairly able to maintain an advantage. Going off the official race track is effectively the same as a crash. At that point you're making negative progress forward. Those guys that stayed on the race track are having to race RD up a hill on a terrible race track. There is more than enough room to turn (even if it means completely round - he's off the race track) and re-enter the course. If he gets stuck... then he gets stuck. I'm afraid that's part of it.
Kyriazis298 8/18/2014 12:48am
8/18/2014 12:48am
Not only does Vital have sprint car racers, doctors, factory mechanics and pros...

We also have Officials now.

Awesome!
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PressPassP 8/18/2014 2:51am
8/18/2014 2:51am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2014 2:57am
Basically Dungey made a majorballs up and got passed by a ton of riders,carried on "off track" and 're-joined around the same position before he crashed

Or you could say that by hitting that slop he got passed by a lot of riders but the shortcut he took by not doing that part of the track,enabled him to pass those guys back?
Dirtydane
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Dirtydane 8/18/2014 4:10am
8/18/2014 4:10am
Even if he didnt make up any positions or what ever..

How can going off the track and and re-enter the track 3 turns later and not loosing any positions not be an advantage?

You are making a mistake and are not loosing anything on it. Thats the kind of mistakes i want to do...

MX455
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MX455 8/18/2014 4:37am
8/18/2014 4:37am
implicate order wrote:
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was...
Nice try, but your screen shot shows Dungey well off the track. Look at where his roost starts, that's where he went off and he was ahead of all those riders in your screen shot. He was 6th, at most, 7th, when he went off. Take the blinders off.



Is this better? 6th at most 7th? No blinders here, you might want to check yourself though.

Where his roost starts is on the track, he had to pin it through the mud. Had he tried to stay on the track he would have been at least 12th, as my previous photo showed. This off the track stuff is being made out to be a gray area and it's BS.

Dungy is the one that is caught this time but this isn't about him or anyone else directly. All of the top guys have done it at one point or another. It should be a fine AND points for everyone. JT was fined and he was sent proof yet it wasn't even him! The trying to get better excuse is ridiculous. How long have they been doing this?
MX455
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MX455 8/18/2014 4:38am
8/18/2014 4:38am
Motocross83 wrote:
Whether he passed riders or not (he did imo) he was still unfairly able to maintain an advantage. Going off the official race track is effectively...
Whether he passed riders or not (he did imo) he was still unfairly able to maintain an advantage. Going off the official race track is effectively the same as a crash. At that point you're making negative progress forward. Those guys that stayed on the race track are having to race RD up a hill on a terrible race track. There is more than enough room to turn (even if it means completely round - he's off the race track) and re-enter the course. If he gets stuck... then he gets stuck. I'm afraid that's part of it.
110%
philG
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philG 8/18/2014 4:54am
8/18/2014 4:54am
Its just a joke , the guy rides 100m or more off the track FFS .... the bales in front of the jump should have gone all the way to the fence.
Robgvx
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Robgvx 8/18/2014 5:08am
8/18/2014 5:08am
philG wrote:
Its just a joke , the guy rides 100m or more off the track FFS .... the bales in front of the jump should have gone...
Its just a joke , the guy rides 100m or more off the track FFS .... the bales in front of the jump should have gone all the way to the fence.
Two solutions:

1. Make the first-turn run-off lane a significant disadvantage. Place bales all the way along so any rider going that way has to zig-zig in and out of a series of straw chicanes. No pedestrians or photogs allowed in there. Make that mistake cost the rider time rather than being an attractive plan B.

2. Make the run-off lane a dead-end. So they have room to avoid a crash (and possible injury) but make them turn around and go back to re-join the track where they left it.

Cutting 100 yards out of the circuit (and actually having an easier section of track to ride than those who bothered to go around the first few turns) cannot be seen as right or fair.
DC
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DC 8/18/2014 5:09am
8/18/2014 5:09am
philG is right, and that was our mistake. We were a little overwhelmed at that moment, and I don't think it happened again in the last three motos. It was our fault for not doing what we planned to slow it down as much as possible while keeping the line there -- no one wants to win the holeshot structure, and next yet it will be one arm on the inside. (Though this was on the inside anyway, but Unadilla last week would have been better.)

If it happens again in Utah we will make that rider join Vital and take his lashes here. That work?

DC
MX Sports

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thrillbillie91 8/18/2014 5:16am
8/18/2014 5:16am
riders trying to maintain speed while off the track seems to happen a lot more these days, like someone said about the rv one in supercross he was wide open and the dunge has had a few of these (des nations last two years etc.) think they need to address peoples speed off track after mistakes
Crush
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Crush 8/18/2014 5:28am
8/18/2014 5:28am
Honestly DC, I think the only way to make the pack not drift wide is to make the turn slower and/or tighter than a 70-90° turn.

A single sweeper is always gonna make the pack drift. Dilla and this weekend are good examples, momentum pulls em wide.

Opposite is Budds and Washougal– the caveat being the gate has to be angled or the first turn in the centre of the gate to make it fair... Scary first turns tho....

Hangtown and Red bud starts are really similar and probably the safest I think.

PS. Can You write with a sharpie on the holeshot structure "Crush's idea" and sign it? That'd be grand Smile
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Darryl916 8/18/2014 6:25am
8/18/2014 6:25am
bvm111 wrote:
Wow.... Really? Where was he supposed to go? He swapped so hard in foot deep mud, explain to me what else he was suppose to do...
Wow.... Really?

Where was he supposed to go?

He swapped so hard in foot deep mud, explain to me what else he was suppose to do? Add to that there were banners all the way around the area he rode how else was he supposed to re enter the track?

It's funny how every week you same guys come on here and clame what was "obvious" or "blatant cheating" maybe the teams need to hire you guys to ensure the rules are followed with absolute black and white accuracy since the AMA, MX sports, and all the teams obviously can't perform this duty!
x2

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fidiot 8/18/2014 6:28am
8/18/2014 6:28am
philG wrote:
Its just a joke , the guy rides 100m or more off the track FFS .... the bales in front of the jump should have gone...
Its just a joke , the guy rides 100m or more off the track FFS .... the bales in front of the jump should have gone all the way to the fence.
Robgvx wrote:
Two solutions: 1. Make the first-turn run-off lane a significant disadvantage. Place bales all the way along so any rider going that way has to zig-zig...
Two solutions:

1. Make the first-turn run-off lane a significant disadvantage. Place bales all the way along so any rider going that way has to zig-zig in and out of a series of straw chicanes. No pedestrians or photogs allowed in there. Make that mistake cost the rider time rather than being an attractive plan B.

2. Make the run-off lane a dead-end. So they have room to avoid a crash (and possible injury) but make them turn around and go back to re-join the track where they left it.

Cutting 100 yards out of the circuit (and actually having an easier section of track to ride than those who bothered to go around the first few turns) cannot be seen as right or fair.
I agree with #1 completely! If the riders go off track, they have to slow WAY down and manuever through a series of zig-zag hay bales after which completing, the pack would be gone by then, and they would be reentering the race track at the back of the pack. There needs to be serious consequences to leaving the track on the start.
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Darryl916 8/18/2014 6:43am
8/18/2014 6:43am
My question to you guys that want to string him up is simple...

What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to just give up because he made a mistake?

I think he actions were as safe, sound, respectful, and as honest as a racer could possibly be.


Pushed wide into the slippery slop
Forced to run off the track
Rode off the pace beside the track until he could safely re-enter without blatantly over-taking.


Besides stopping and letting the entire field go by (which seems silly to me), what else could he have done? He didn't blatantly go off track on purpose, and he didn't "charge" the access road for an advantage.

This thread is a witch hunt.
fidiot
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fidiot 8/18/2014 6:52am
8/18/2014 6:52am
I don't blame Dungey for what he did. There is a history of acceptance for going off track, so he went with it without taking complete advantage of the situation. I think the solution moving forward though is to slow them down and force them to reenter at the back of the back a little further up the track.
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kongols 8/18/2014 6:54am
8/18/2014 6:54am
Dirtydane wrote:
Even if he didnt make up any positions or what ever.. How can going off the track and and re-enter the track 3 turns later and...
Even if he didnt make up any positions or what ever..

How can going off the track and and re-enter the track 3 turns later and not loosing any positions not be an advantage?

You are making a mistake and are not loosing anything on it. Thats the kind of mistakes i want to do...

I want a life like that.
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Gringoe 8/18/2014 7:00am
8/18/2014 7:00am
DC wrote:
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud...
After watching us all pull bikes out of the mud all morning, I think Dungey did the exact correct thing -- he got through the mud and didn't risk going back through twice -- and proceeded to the next hole in the fence. Could he have gone slower? Sure. But had he tried to get back on right there, in three feet of mud, he would not have made it out, just like Cairoli in Sweden last year.

We are trying to make the starts safer and we will be clamping down more on the "blow-off" line so you have to slow done. But I don't want to see a guy hitting a wall of hay bales or a wire or a medic. There has to be some middle ground -- safety without advantage when you go off the track on the start -- and are working on it. There are hay bales there, and he went around them at a slower speed than those 250s at Unadilla.

DC
MX Sports
That was a terrible reply

There was a hole in the banners 50 feet from where he went off that he could of easily gone back through. Nope, PINNED it up the water truck road for like 100 yards?

To the people saying he didn't gain positions, are you kidding me? He went off the track in 11th or whatever but do you not see he was literally at a dead stop and would of been atleast 20th or worse had he stayed on the track? He got to hop out of the mud onto the super hard water truck road and pin it and gain a lot of spots back (and not lose the ones he would of in the next 40 feet had he not gone off the track)

"I would've gotten stuck" is going to be my excuse to you when you try to dock me for cutting the start at the next mud race. I'll save this post you made Smile
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Gringoe 8/18/2014 7:01am
8/18/2014 7:01am
Darryl916 wrote:
My question to you guys that want to string him up is simple... What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to just give up...
My question to you guys that want to string him up is simple...

What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to just give up because he made a mistake?

I think he actions were as safe, sound, respectful, and as honest as a racer could possibly be.


Pushed wide into the slippery slop
Forced to run off the track
Rode off the pace beside the track until he could safely re-enter without blatantly over-taking.


Besides stopping and letting the entire field go by (which seems silly to me), what else could he have done? He didn't blatantly go off track on purpose, and he didn't "charge" the access road for an advantage.

This thread is a witch hunt.
"Rode off the pace beside the track"

He was fucking pinned and passing people that were on the track bro
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steveada 8/18/2014 7:05am
8/18/2014 7:05am
I don't think that saying the mud was so deep that he had to go off the track is justification for what he did. Lets just say that the location where he went off the track didn't offer the option to go out onto the service road. What options would he have then? It sucks for him, but he would have to navigate back through the mud and join the race period. It was not like he went flying off the track and was on the service road before he regained control. He was in the mud and decided the service road looked better than the mud. Yes he may have got stuck in the mud, but in conditions like that, sometimes mistakes end up costing you a lot more than if conditions were better. Is it really "fair" that he made a mistake, went off into the mud that essentially ended more than 1 riders race, yet did not loose a position because he had the option of avoiding the mud and going up the service road?
DC
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DC 8/18/2014 7:35am
8/18/2014 7:35am Edited Date/Time 8/18/2014 7:40am
Gringoe, I agree he should have gone slower, and that's why we are revisiting the rule. And yes, if you were confronted with the piles of mud we had all along both sides of the track, I think they would have treated you the same way as Dungey. It was a mess, and I wish I would have been there on the start to make sure the hay bales blocked the road completely, but I was a little busy right before the start on the other side of the start, dealing with a different situation that was more urgent than those two hay bales...



It's easy to not be there yet second-guess everyone's actions and decisions, but please understand it was a fluid situation to say the least.

DC
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DC
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DC 8/18/2014 7:39am
8/18/2014 7:39am
steveada, it was the same penalty that Cooper Webb and friends got at Unadilla, which was nothing. That will change next year, I promise, but the precedence was set for this year, right or wrong, and we adhere to it for one more race and then get to work. In the meantime, we will work harder to keep them on the track at Utah.

DC
MX Sports

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