When will we know if James is racing this weekend? GuyB, Matthes, JT$, anybody?

GrapeApe
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6/23/2014 2:55pm
mrquick wrote:
Ummm...The FIM said he was suspended until futher notice. That tells me he will not be racing at muddy creek.
It's not that easy. Does the FIM have the authority/jurisdiction to suspend him from the nationals? Could it create future problems for JS7 or MX Sports if they don't honor the FIM suspension? People are scrambling to find answers to these questions, and we may not know the answer until Saturday.
Jt$
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6/23/2014 2:59pm
smeg wrote:
Well that was a complete waste of time. They didn't say anything that wasn't already said here in vital. Just a bunch of opinions and speculation.
Jt$ wrote:
If you want my opinion, which is all that anyone can offer at this point, I think he will be on the line at Muddy Creek...
If you want my opinion, which is all that anyone can offer at this point, I think he will be on the line at Muddy Creek. Have you seen anyone anywhere say that he will or won't be? No, because no one truly knows that answer yet. There are lots and lots of things going on behind the scenes that will dictate that.
mrquick wrote:
Ummm...The FIM said he was suspended until futher notice. That tells me he will not be racing at muddy creek.
FIM doesn't have final say in this matter from what I am told. If this were the SX season, you would probably have something there.
IceMan446
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6/23/2014 3:03pm
TripleFive wrote:
Even if the FIM doesn't have jurisdiction over the outdoors, it could compel James to withdraw from the series by ratcheting up the penalty in the...
Even if the FIM doesn't have jurisdiction over the outdoors, it could compel James to withdraw from the series by ratcheting up the penalty in the SX series.
Why would they even want to do that???

They have no jurisdiction over that series. It would seem to me that they wouldnt have a say in the matter nor would his decision in another series effect their ruling on the SX series.

I know people dont want him racing the motocross series and thats pretty clear, but I dont think the FIM even cares.
2thefront
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6/23/2014 3:03pm
2thefront wrote:
But what is the FIM's jurisdiction?
TripleFive wrote:
Even if the FIM doesn't have jurisdiction over the outdoors, it could compel James to withdraw from the series by ratcheting up the penalty in the...
Even if the FIM doesn't have jurisdiction over the outdoors, it could compel James to withdraw from the series by ratcheting up the penalty in the SX series.
Agreed but I don't think they can make him stop racing the nationals on their own.

The Shop

smeg
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6/23/2014 3:04pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 3:06pm
I am curious about the whole WADA/USADA dynamic. Isn't USADA just an arm of WADA? I would think WADA is the parent organization and as such penalties imposed at the parent level would apply at the child level.

I am aware that WADA didn't actually impose penalties but I think you can see what I am saying. In other words if someone tests dirty in a WADA test I would assume USADA would honor those results.
motomike137
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6/23/2014 3:16pm
For a little insight on how this should have been handled go read up on AJ Allmendinger and his suspension from Nascar. In a nutshell the sanctioning body made the announcement, gave him 72 hours to ask for the B sample test, they got that handled in a timely fashion and then had a program available for him to get reinstated if he completed it. They had a plan and followed it. Instead we have this clusterfuck. You mean to tell me that it is not a foregone conclusion whether he is allowed to keep riding the outdoors? Do the nationals conform to FIM rule or not? This is really bad joke at this point.
mauidex
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6/23/2014 3:26pm
ya but NASCAR sux and nothing at all in moto should be like it..................rememeber!??!??!??!?!
motomike137
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6/23/2014 3:27pm
mauidex wrote:
ya but NASCAR sux and nothing at all in moto should be like it..................rememeber!??!??!??!?!
lol... if that's the goal they are batting 1000% right now
6/23/2014 3:31pm
How do we even know that this is actually a "clusterfuck"? Maybe outside of the internet things are being handled between the ones involved.

mrquick
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6/23/2014 3:31pm
smeg wrote:
I am curious about the whole WADA/USADA dynamic. Isn't USADA just an arm of WADA? I would think WADA is the parent organization and as such...
I am curious about the whole WADA/USADA dynamic. Isn't USADA just an arm of WADA? I would think WADA is the parent organization and as such penalties imposed at the parent level would apply at the child level.

I am aware that WADA didn't actually impose penalties but I think you can see what I am saying. In other words if someone tests dirty in a WADA test I would assume USADA would honor those results.
BINGO !!!
DownSouth
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6/23/2014 3:39pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 3:40pm
For a little insight on how this should have been handled go read up on AJ Allmendinger and his suspension from Nascar. In a nutshell the...
For a little insight on how this should have been handled go read up on AJ Allmendinger and his suspension from Nascar. In a nutshell the sanctioning body made the announcement, gave him 72 hours to ask for the B sample test, they got that handled in a timely fashion and then had a program available for him to get reinstated if he completed it. They had a plan and followed it. Instead we have this clusterfuck. You mean to tell me that it is not a foregone conclusion whether he is allowed to keep riding the outdoors? Do the nationals conform to FIM rule or not? This is really bad joke at this point.
It seems to be a very grey area.

This is straight out of the MX Sports form: ANNEX A: EVENT PARTICIPANT NOTIFICATION OF USADA DRUG TESTING

"All event participants acknowledge and agree that they are subject to the Code and the USADA Protocol, and that they are required to abide by all such rules and by the anti-doping rules of the FÉDÉRATION INTERNATIONALE DE MOTOCYCLISME (“FIM”)."

And ANNEX B: CONSENT TO DOPING CONTROL

"I understand and agree that by virtue of signing this Consent, I am subject to doping control conducted by USADA. I understand and agree that the World Anti-Doping Code (“Code”) and the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and its Annexes (“USADA Protocol”), apply to me, constitute the anti-doping rules for the Championships, and that I am required to abide by all such rules and by the anti-doping rules of the LOC and the FÉDÉRATION INTERNATIONALE DE MOTOCYCLISME (“FIM”)."

Full forms are posted here
motomike137
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6/23/2014 3:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 3:41pm
How do we even know that this is actually a "clusterfuck"? Maybe outside of the internet things are being handled between the ones involved.

Because after all the years this type of testing has been going on a organization that wants to protect its best interest and demonstrate some integrity to it's fan base would have its ducks in a row. Instead we the fans have rampant speculation as to what is going on. It pisses me off and bums me out that James would do this, there is no excuse that I can see for the infraction. But if the folks who run "our sport" had their shit together they would have a recovery plan for the athletes and would have thought this thing through much better especially in the case where one of their highest profile competitors gets busted. Just my 2 cents and consider me vented! lol Smile
6/23/2014 3:45pm
mauidex wrote:
ya but NASCAR sux and nothing at all in moto should be like it..................rememeber!??!??!??!?!
Hmmm....thats a pretty ignorant comment as Nascar is Americas most watched motorsports, hell I think its Americas number 1 sport in general. So id be happy to have our sport (sx/mx) half as popular as Nascar....their obviously doing something right!

There is a reason why our community is subject to failure when it comes to major issues...reasoning behind that is Dmg or Ama or whoever owns us now doesn't have the huge money sponsors that push for final outcomes that sports communties such as nfl, nascar, nba, f1, soccer...list goes on have. So our resolve is slow and almost pointless! We lose our fan base based on this alone....this whole thing has irritated me from day one and how stupidly secretive our sport has been is just ridiculous. We are our own worst enemy!!!



IceMan446
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6/23/2014 3:48pm
Not only is it a complete clusterfuck, the people in this industry talk and gossip so much its like high school.

Im glad I am not a part of that inner circle.

motomike137
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6/23/2014 3:51pm
mauidex wrote:
ya but NASCAR sux and nothing at all in moto should be like it..................rememeber!??!??!??!?!
Hmmm....thats a pretty ignorant comment as Nascar is Americas most watched motorsports, hell I think its Americas number 1 sport in general. So id be happy...
Hmmm....thats a pretty ignorant comment as Nascar is Americas most watched motorsports, hell I think its Americas number 1 sport in general. So id be happy to have our sport (sx/mx) half as popular as Nascar....their obviously doing something right!

There is a reason why our community is subject to failure when it comes to major issues...reasoning behind that is Dmg or Ama or whoever owns us now doesn't have the huge money sponsors that push for final outcomes that sports communties such as nfl, nascar, nba, f1, soccer...list goes on have. So our resolve is slow and almost pointless! We lose our fan base based on this alone....this whole thing has irritated me from day one and how stupidly secretive our sport has been is just ridiculous. We are our own worst enemy!!!



I think it was sarcasm?
djc
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6/23/2014 4:53pm
If I were James I would make sure everything he is doing is ok for Mx and win every dam race to shut every one up and put this behind. Hopefully he does not come out and just crash out or suck now cause of al of this
rcm406
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6/23/2014 5:19pm
djc wrote:
If I were James I would make sure everything he is doing is ok for Mx and win every dam race to shut every one up...
If I were James I would make sure everything he is doing is ok for Mx and win every dam race to shut every one up and put this behind. Hopefully he does not come out and just crash out or suck now cause of al of this
Just dealing with the stress with all this bullshit, it's enough to make you pack up shop and go home! I really hope James can put this behind him to ride like we know he can!
6/23/2014 5:27pm
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing, etc., we are left in the dark.

Announce something concrete. Commit to a plan of action.

Personally, I think it is bullshit to ban a rider for...adderall. EPO...? Totally different IMO. If James has a long standing prescription but just didn't get the TUE...big deal, make a fine and go on.

So, let me get this shit straight... It's OK to use adderall if you fill out some paperwork with the testing agency (and probably pay a fee), but if you forgot to fill out said paperwork, the testing agency is going to effectively end your career?

ABSURD. This is a big black eye for our beloved sport.
smeg
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6/23/2014 5:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 5:43pm
thephoenix wrote:
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing...
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing, etc., we are left in the dark.

Announce something concrete. Commit to a plan of action.

Personally, I think it is bullshit to ban a rider for...adderall. EPO...? Totally different IMO. If James has a long standing prescription but just didn't get the TUE...big deal, make a fine and go on.

So, let me get this shit straight... It's OK to use adderall if you fill out some paperwork with the testing agency (and probably pay a fee), but if you forgot to fill out said paperwork, the testing agency is going to effectively end your career?

ABSURD. This is a big black eye for our beloved sport.
The problem with your argument, like all the rest is this.......................

So they give JS a pass on this. Tell him to show his 'script and issue a TUE. Give him a small fine and move on.

Okay... so I am a pro racer. My thought process is this...... "Well shit, I will just go to my doc, get a 'script for adderal(not as hard to do as one would think) and I will just take it on raceday to help my focus/concentration, speed up my coordination. If I get caught I will just claim stupidity/ignorance/laziness and get issued a TUE, pay a fine and all is good. I can use a medication to help improve my performance and if caught the price is pretty meaningless."

Is that the precedent that should be set?
Mr. Info
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6/23/2014 5:49pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 5:50pm
I think that until all appeals are in and done and any legal action has already been started if needed then I think DC will then step in and state he answer. Guys this is not something that should be taken in haste. Let the sides play out there parts and then DC will step in with his ruling. Why do it any sooner, there is no rush. Anything can be retroactive if need be. If I was a lawyer thats what my advise would be. And no he did not cheat he made a mistake but also he needs to take account for his actions or lack of them. Same as anyone else. He will ride Sunday and win.
mauidex
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6/23/2014 5:49pm
hey 2wheels..........it is totally sarcasm.........but I see you're new here and have not had the joy of arguing nascar vs. moto to the idiots who have their head stuck in the 2 wheeled sand.........i've been involved in MX/SX virtually my whole life........in NASCAR, CART, INDYCAR, F1 for the last 15 years or so..........ya lots of things from those playbooks need to be here.............but the "core" guys/fans/wannabes who are so dead set against anything changing in their "little" and I do mean "little" game is comical to say the least
6/23/2014 5:51pm
thephoenix wrote:
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing...
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing, etc., we are left in the dark.

Announce something concrete. Commit to a plan of action.

Personally, I think it is bullshit to ban a rider for...adderall. EPO...? Totally different IMO. If James has a long standing prescription but just didn't get the TUE...big deal, make a fine and go on.

So, let me get this shit straight... It's OK to use adderall if you fill out some paperwork with the testing agency (and probably pay a fee), but if you forgot to fill out said paperwork, the testing agency is going to effectively end your career?

ABSURD. This is a big black eye for our beloved sport.
smeg wrote:
The problem with your argument, like all the rest is this....................... So they give JS a pass on this. Tell him to show his 'script and...
The problem with your argument, like all the rest is this.......................

So they give JS a pass on this. Tell him to show his 'script and issue a TUE. Give him a small fine and move on.

Okay... so I am a pro racer. My thought process is this...... "Well shit, I will just go to my doc, get a 'script for adderal(not as hard to do as one would think) and I will just take it on raceday to help my focus/concentration, speed up my coordination. If I get caught I will just claim stupidity/ignorance/laziness and get issued a TUE, pay a fine and all is good. I can use a medication to help improve my performance and if caught the price is pretty meaningless."

Is that the precedent that should be set?
Well, with the level of communication these agencies are showing us right now, I wonder if the Stewart camp was even aware of the exact details of the TUE as it relates to a prescribed drug. I say if he has had a long term prescription to adderall as they say he has...then it obviously isn't cheating, I doubt James woke up 10 or 12 years ago (could be 4-5 years ago, I don't know because no information is being released) and said "I am going to cheat in 2014 by starting adderall right now".

It's a hard argument for both sides. It's just plain stupid that our "affiliated" agencies can't seem to get their own respective stories/facts straight. Typical red tape bullshit.

6/23/2014 5:55pm
thephoenix wrote:
Well, with the level of communication these agencies are showing us right now, I wonder if the Stewart camp was even aware of the exact details...
Well, with the level of communication these agencies are showing us right now, I wonder if the Stewart camp was even aware of the exact details of the TUE as it relates to a prescribed drug. I say if he has had a long term prescription to adderall as they say he has...then it obviously isn't cheating, I doubt James woke up 10 or 12 years ago (could be 4-5 years ago, I don't know because no information is being released) and said "I am going to cheat in 2014 by starting adderall right now".

It's a hard argument for both sides. It's just plain stupid that our "affiliated" agencies can't seem to get their own respective stories/facts straight. Typical red tape bullshit.

Go back and read the press release again.

It only said that there is a prescription for a long-term condition. Long-term condition does not always equal long-term prescription.
6/23/2014 6:01pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 6:02pm
I have a FIM/WADA question and I don't feel like starting a new thread like everyone else has on this topic, so I'll just ask it here.


Does WADA have the sole authority to issue penalties, or are they simply a contractor that performs the testing? If WADA does issue penalties, does the FIM have any discretion regarding enforcement?

From what I understand, the FIM has contracted with WADA to monitor the sport -- the FIM pays WADA for its services. As such, it seems like the FIM isn't bound by any WADA ruling.


If my assumption is correct James' situation is much more favorable for him; the FIM will likely cave like they did for RC.
smeg
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6/23/2014 6:02pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 6:03pm
TripleFive wrote:
Go back and read the press release again. It only said that there is a prescription for a long-term condition. Long-term condition does not always equal...
Go back and read the press release again.

It only said that there is a prescription for a long-term condition. Long-term condition does not always equal long-term prescription.
Good catch..................... Oh........ the nuances of public relations, gotta love it.

Why did it have to be James, any-fucking-body but James............
6/23/2014 6:14pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 6:17pm
ns503 wrote:
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/I-guess-it-has-been-confirmed-its-Adderall-Ping-thinks-so,1272131 Frasers post halfway down: [i]In the FIM code it says 2 yrs for a first offence.. section 10.2 but its not easy to follow Also...
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/I-guess-it-has-been-confi…

Frasers post halfway down:

In the FIM code it says 2 yrs for a first offence.. section 10.2 but its not easy to follow

Also says in 10.4 if it was not intended to improve rider performance and he can show how it got there, it could be anywhere from a reprimand to 2 years

10.10 No Rider or other Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in an event or activity (other than authorized anti doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by FIM or any FMN or a club or other member Organisation of FIM or any FMN, or in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any international or national level event organisation.


Which is pretty darn far reaching.
Yes it is. However, the clause you refer to says "suspended", not " provisionally suspended". A suspension is a final ruling. A provisional suspension is subject to appeal and modification per the FIM's own policy. Therefore, that's how I would proceed if I were James. Continue to race the Nationals, as he's provisionally suspended from FIM events. If he was suspended, he should then stop.

Splitting hairs I know, but that's how it'll play out if lawyers get involved. And JS7 would then potentially have a huge civil case for lost earnings if the FIM decides to push the issue
ando
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6/23/2014 7:18pm
My understanding from reading everything I can in the last few days (there is actually some good factual information among all the BS)...

SX is sanctioned by the AMA, which is affiliated with FIM. It's also an official FIM world championship so all FIM rules apply.

FIM engages WADA to conduct testing on its behalf (a contract of sorts). WADA does all the testing, and advises/publishes results. The sanctioning body, in this case FIM, is responsible for deciding, issuing and enforcing penalties.

MX is sanctioned by AMA Pro Racing, which despite its name is not associated or affiliated with AMA, nor is it affiliated with FIM. MX Sports has engaged USADA, which itself is affiliated with WADA and uses the same standards and testing protocols, to do its testing.

On the surface, a suspension applied in one series has no effect or force in the other. However it's here where things start getting complicated, for some technical and political reasons.

The wording of the FIM policy on suspensions seems to imply that it applies to not only FIM and affiliate sanctioned series, but other national level series. This could mean that while the FIM can't stop James racing in the US nationals, to do would be a breach of any FIM suspension and may land him in further trouble.

Secondly, it doesn't seem clear if having an AMA license or membership (as distinct from AMA Pro Racing) is a requirement to race the nationals. Do national level pro's have two licences?

Finally, there's the political aspect of having a rider fail a test and be suspended from one series, which is then ignored by the other series and he is allowed to compete.

I think it's this last issue which possibly wasn't foreseen, and which is putting DC and MX Sports in a bind. Do they allow a suspended rider to compete and thus create a farcical situation where the rider is banned from one series and not the other? Or do they come in line with the FIM ruling and apply the same suspension, even though the testing wasn't done under their own controls/guidelines?

Certainly a messy situation.
Juss
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6/23/2014 8:00pm
thephoenix wrote:
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing...
The fact this discussion is even taking place is absurd. Neither organization is talking....us, the people that pay the entry fees, hotel rooms, bikes, parts, clothing, etc., we are left in the dark.

Announce something concrete. Commit to a plan of action.

Personally, I think it is bullshit to ban a rider for...adderall. EPO...? Totally different IMO. If James has a long standing prescription but just didn't get the TUE...big deal, make a fine and go on.

So, let me get this shit straight... It's OK to use adderall if you fill out some paperwork with the testing agency (and probably pay a fee), but if you forgot to fill out said paperwork, the testing agency is going to effectively end your career?

ABSURD. This is a big black eye for our beloved sport.
smeg wrote:
The problem with your argument, like all the rest is this....................... So they give JS a pass on this. Tell him to show his 'script and...
The problem with your argument, like all the rest is this.......................

So they give JS a pass on this. Tell him to show his 'script and issue a TUE. Give him a small fine and move on.

Okay... so I am a pro racer. My thought process is this...... "Well shit, I will just go to my doc, get a 'script for adderal(not as hard to do as one would think) and I will just take it on raceday to help my focus/concentration, speed up my coordination. If I get caught I will just claim stupidity/ignorance/laziness and get issued a TUE, pay a fine and all is good. I can use a medication to help improve my performance and if caught the price is pretty meaningless."

Is that the precedent that should be set?
Didn't RC get a free pass?
Juss
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6/23/2014 8:08pm
This is how it will play out. James gets slap on wrist.! James pays fine! See you a MEC & A1 James. You guys really dumb enough, too think he is going to miss even 1 race?
GuyB
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6/23/2014 8:12pm
I'd make an educated guess that it's a fluid situation that won't be resolved immediately.

Yes, it's a prescription drug. No, it wasn't properly documented or approved (via a TUE). Unfortunately, that makes this sort of the ultimate, "The dog ate my homework," excuse.

That means there are appeals to work through. How that will work out is anybody's guess. But based on past history of WADA and other sports, I expect it to be a substantial penalty. Hopefully it's not a career-ending length.

Athletes in other sports (the Olympics, for example) have by and large figured out how to live within the confines of this. Having one of our biggest stars snared in this is undoubtedly an unintended consequence that no one expected.

But if this was prescribed by a doctor to a world-class athlete, the doctor should have known amd advised him that he needed a TUE. Same goes for his parents, team manager, trainer, and anyone else in his circle.

Is there a reciprical agreement between the two series to honor each other's penalties? No.

Will AMA Pro Racing have any choice but to pull his license if the FIM and AMA request that they honor it? That remains to be seen.

Post a reply to: When will we know if James is racing this weekend? GuyB, Matthes, JT$, anybody?

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