A little data: Hangtown 2013 (450 vs 250) vs Hangtown 2014 (450 vs 250)

dv12.com
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dv12.com
Edited Date/Time 6/4/2014 7:40pm
RV is messing up my 2014 450 data a bit… ;-). I guess I had some time to kill while watching the Angels getting beat by one of the worst team in the league...

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Dart Board 6/3/2014 8:46pm
6/3/2014 8:46pm
I don't think it means anything. No way Bogel is as good as Tomac last year but it's possible that J Mart now is better than those guys
WhipMeister
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WhipMeister 6/3/2014 8:52pm
6/3/2014 8:52pm
250s are evolving to 'right sized'.
zehn
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zehn 6/3/2014 9:05pm
6/3/2014 9:05pm
I wish it was totally apples to apples. With that new step-up, the track is a little different.
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tunedlength 6/3/2014 9:38pm
6/3/2014 9:38pm
dv12.com wrote:
RV is messing up my 2014 450 data a bit… ;-). I guess I had some time to kill while watching the Angels getting beat by...
RV is messing up my 2014 450 data a bit… ;-). I guess I had some time to kill while watching the Angels getting beat by one of the worst team in the league...

Love stats.
Stats don't lie.

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dv12.com
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dv12.com 6/3/2014 9:57pm
6/3/2014 9:57pm
zehn wrote:
I wish it was totally apples to apples. With that new step-up, the track is a little different.
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You can't compare 2013 and 2014 lap times but you can compare 450 vs 250 in 2013 and in 2014. The numbers in red is what matters
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TNL830 6/3/2014 10:01pm
6/3/2014 10:01pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2014 10:02pm
zehn wrote:
I wish it was totally apples to apples. With that new step-up, the track is a little different.
dv12.com wrote:
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You...
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You can't compare 2013 and 2014 lap times but you can compare 450 vs 250 in 2013 and in 2014. The numbers in red is what matters
Agreed
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chrisbuehler 6/3/2014 11:08pm
6/3/2014 11:08pm
dv12.com wrote:
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You...
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You can't compare 2013 and 2014 lap times but you can compare 450 vs 250 in 2013 and in 2014. The numbers in red is what matters
Gotcha. Glossed right over the red column at first. So from the data it would seem RV is a bad mothereffer, J-Mart too! He was only off Dunge's best time by lil more than a half sec. He might be making the races boring but damn what an emergence! Can't wait to see what he can do with each coming round.
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ocscottie 6/3/2014 11:11pm
6/3/2014 11:11pm
Good stuff DV, thx for taking the time to gather the stats.
dv12.com
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dv12.com 6/4/2014 1:04am
6/4/2014 1:04am
ocscottie wrote:
Good stuff DV, thx for taking the time to gather the stats.
That's what happens when you have time in your hands and imagination... hahaha. Glad you liked it...
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jamma10 6/4/2014 1:42am
6/4/2014 1:42am
Dart Board wrote:
I don't think it means anything. No way Bogel is as good as Tomac last year but it's possible that J Mart now is better than...
I don't think it means anything. No way Bogel is as good as Tomac last year but it's possible that J Mart now is better than those guys
I think those Yamahas have something to do with it, they look like rocketships!
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Lamecake 6/4/2014 4:56am
6/4/2014 4:56am
Would be interesting to see the lap # of the fastest lap. (if Martin clicked that in lap 1-3 in the first moto, then it's nothing special. If he did it in lap 10, it would be)
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GrapeApe 6/4/2014 5:05am
6/4/2014 5:05am
So Roczen would have bean Martin by 33 seconds in the first moto, and 27 seconds in the second moto. That's about what I would expect between the 250 and 450 class.
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KlootZak 6/4/2014 5:19am
6/4/2014 5:19am
I don't want to be a party pooper here but you can't really draw some conclusions out of this. There are too few samples in order to say that the 250 in 2014 are much closer to the 450 than in 2013. I would also chose average lap times instead of best times (unless you only want to know the sheer speed over 1 lap). Maybe after six rounds and then do the analysis, it could be representative test
clmartin22
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clmartin22 6/4/2014 5:35am
6/4/2014 5:35am
Roczen's fast lap was on lap 7 in moto 2, Martin's was on lap 2.

Moto 2 Average Lap time
Roczen 2.06.290
Dungey 2.06.934

Martin 2.08.763
Web 2.09.771
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hvaughn88 6/4/2014 5:40am
6/4/2014 5:40am
KlootZak wrote:
I don't want to be a party pooper here but you can't really draw some conclusions out of this. There are too few samples in order...
I don't want to be a party pooper here but you can't really draw some conclusions out of this. There are too few samples in order to say that the 250 in 2014 are much closer to the 450 than in 2013. I would also chose average lap times instead of best times (unless you only want to know the sheer speed over 1 lap). Maybe after six rounds and then do the analysis, it could be representative test
Hate to poop on your party pooping, but there wasn't actually any data analysis done. It was simply the presentation of data. What you do with the data is up to you, which is when it matters what the sample size, etc. is.
Thanks for puttin the info up DV, it's pretty cool to see this type of stuff.
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Crush 6/4/2014 5:48am
6/4/2014 5:48am
I definitely don' t have the time nor desire to crunch the numbers but Klootzak is right, you'd need average or at least fastest and standard deviation to really review them...

Or you could just say that clearly J-Mart is ripping. Don't need a stop watch for that!
wow123
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wow123 6/4/2014 9:31am
6/4/2014 9:31am
so kroc was faster in his first 013 250 moto than his his last 014 450 moto

?

you can draw many things from data/stats

but

imo

most mean diddly
Lamecake
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Lamecake 6/4/2014 10:07am
6/4/2014 10:07am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2014 10:14am
If you do the same kind of data presentation for the last 2 MXGP's.....

RD9 - France - Moto1 - Herlings 1:50.356 / Desalle 1:49.593 - MXGP 0.763 seconds faster
RD9 - France - Moto2 - Herlings 1:48.022 / Desalle 1:49.084 - MXGP 1.062 seconds slower

RD8 - Great Britain - Moto1 - Herlings 1:54.841 / Cairoli 1:55.830 - MXGP 0.989 seconds slower
RD8 - Great Britain - Moto2 - Herlings 1:55.179 / Cairoli 1:55.139 - MXGP 0.040 seconds faster

And for fun... on his home track.

RD6 - The Netherlands - Moto1 - Herlings 1:52.847 / Paulin 1:55.356 - MXGP 2.509 seconds slower
RD6 - The Netherlands - Moto2 - Herlings 1:52.950 / Cairoli 1:55.974 - MXGP 3.024 seconds slower

Pit Row

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Brent
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Brent 6/4/2014 10:12am
6/4/2014 10:12am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2014 10:18am
I think the point is that the 250f bikes and riders are getting faster, if you put Jeremy Martin and his rocket bike on the 450 gate, he would go top 10 easy. When the track gets rougher the 250s seem to be very competitive with the big bikes .

The advances they are making with 250 power is impressive, but as we have seen with the PC factory Kawi, they can be a time bomb also. Only two rounds in, but it looks as if Yamaha has made a horsepower breakthrough with those bikes . If they could figure out how to turbocharge the 250 to keep up with the 450 on the start, that would open the door to a lot of possibilities.

250f technology seems to be cutting adage right now, next thing is to keep them from blowing up...
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Lamecake 6/4/2014 10:23am
6/4/2014 10:23am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2014 10:24am
Brent wrote:
I think the point is that the 250f bikes and riders are getting faster, if you put Jeremy Martin and his rocket bike on the 450...
I think the point is that the 250f bikes and riders are getting faster, if you put Jeremy Martin and his rocket bike on the 450 gate, he would go top 10 easy. When the track gets rougher the 250s seem to be very competitive with the big bikes .

The advances they are making with 250 power is impressive, but as we have seen with the PC factory Kawi, they can be a time bomb also. Only two rounds in, but it looks as if Yamaha has made a horsepower breakthrough with those bikes . If they could figure out how to turbocharge the 250 to keep up with the 450 on the start, that would open the door to a lot of possibilities.

250f technology seems to be cutting adage right now, next thing is to keep them from blowing up...
On paper Martin would be top 10 easy when placed with the 450s, but in reality he would start dead last and get outdragged in every corner by the 450s, making it very hard to pass. Herlings had exactly this problem last year when the MX1&MX2 class got combined in some GP's.
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Brent 6/4/2014 10:28am
6/4/2014 10:28am
Maybe, but then you look at Cairoli grabbing tons of holeshots on a bike that is 100cc down...
louis.bernard.564 6/4/2014 10:33am
6/4/2014 10:33am

Wise analysis, cheers. First conclusion, the 250 this year is REALLY fast.

For party crashers it is true that we can always continously add data (average/more years/etc), even a formula to estimate how slower the track gets from 1 moto to another, I think that could prove even better DV's point. Indeed the 250 are coming after the 450 so the track is about 1 second slower (the 250 & 450 lost about 2 seconds between their motos). Impressive !
Patrick_Turner 6/4/2014 10:39am
6/4/2014 10:39am
All i got from this is I miss RV being out there. Don't think for a second dung and k roc would have beaten him if he were racing.
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MotoMalyDad 6/4/2014 12:11pm
6/4/2014 12:11pm
Patrick_Turner wrote:
All i got from this is I miss RV being out there. Don't think for a second dung and k roc would have beaten him if...
All i got from this is I miss RV being out there. Don't think for a second dung and k roc would have beaten him if he were racing.
Can't race on paper or the computer.
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TannerMxer 6/4/2014 12:50pm
6/4/2014 12:50pm
zehn wrote:
I wish it was totally apples to apples. With that new step-up, the track is a little different.
dv12.com wrote:
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You...
We are not comparing the tracks… We are comparing the difference in lap times the same day on the same track on 2 different seasons… You can't compare 2013 and 2014 lap times but you can compare 450 vs 250 in 2013 and in 2014. The numbers in red is what matters
DV, I would piggyback on your stats and talk about how the track is a lot rougher for the 250f's, so their true times on an equal conditioned track are probably a lot closer.
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DP#201 6/4/2014 2:24pm
6/4/2014 2:24pm
Patrick_Turner wrote:
All i got from this is I miss RV being out there. Don't think for a second dung and k roc would have beaten him if...
All i got from this is I miss RV being out there. Don't think for a second dung and k roc would have beaten him if he were racing.
So.. RV is winning even if he is not racing Sick

In order to finish firs, first you have to finish.. Or start for that matterWoohoo
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chrisbuehler 6/4/2014 2:40pm
6/4/2014 2:40pm
Brent wrote:
Maybe, but then you look at Cairoli grabbing tons of holeshots on a bike that is 100cc down...
Hell yes. Dude rips the holeshot almost every time I'm watching, he amazing. And people say the "lack of power" from the Honda's are holding back their factory rider's. Tony doesnt seem to have any issues
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bama205 6/4/2014 4:45pm
6/4/2014 4:45pm
Brent wrote:
I think the point is that the 250f bikes and riders are getting faster, if you put Jeremy Martin and his rocket bike on the 450...
I think the point is that the 250f bikes and riders are getting faster, if you put Jeremy Martin and his rocket bike on the 450 gate, he would go top 10 easy. When the track gets rougher the 250s seem to be very competitive with the big bikes .

The advances they are making with 250 power is impressive, but as we have seen with the PC factory Kawi, they can be a time bomb also. Only two rounds in, but it looks as if Yamaha has made a horsepower breakthrough with those bikes . If they could figure out how to turbocharge the 250 to keep up with the 450 on the start, that would open the door to a lot of possibilities.

250f technology seems to be cutting adage right now, next thing is to keep them from blowing up...
Lamecake wrote:
On paper Martin would be top 10 easy when placed with the 450s, but in reality he would start dead last and get outdragged in every...
On paper Martin would be top 10 easy when placed with the 450s, but in reality he would start dead last and get outdragged in every corner by the 450s, making it very hard to pass. Herlings had exactly this problem last year when the MX1&MX2 class got combined in some GP's.
See MXdN 2007
Whoops_Blitzer 6/4/2014 5:31pm
6/4/2014 5:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2014 5:32pm
dv12.com wrote:
RV is messing up my 2014 450 data a bit… ;-). I guess I had some time to kill while watching the Angels getting beat by...
RV is messing up my 2014 450 data a bit… ;-). I guess I had some time to kill while watching the Angels getting beat by one of the worst team in the league...

A better comparison would be if we look at Dungey as a constant, since he raced this year and last.

FAST LAP COMPARISON
2013 moto 1: Dungey > Roczen: 1.8 sec.
2014 moto 1: Dungey > Martin: 1.5 sec.

'13 moto 2: Dungey > Roczen: 2.6
'14 moto 2: Dungey > Martin: 0.6

Not that there are every really any constants in motocross. (Also: Dungey seemed to have gone backwards in SX from 13 to 14. Is it the same for MX?)
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JM485 6/4/2014 7:27pm
6/4/2014 7:27pm
Crush wrote:
I definitely don' t have the time nor desire to crunch the numbers but Klootzak is right, you'd need average or at least fastest and standard...
I definitely don' t have the time nor desire to crunch the numbers but Klootzak is right, you'd need average or at least fastest and standard deviation to really review them...

Or you could just say that clearly J-Mart is ripping. Don't need a stop watch for that!
The only thing I can say clearly is that most vitards probably have no idea what standard deviation is.Whistling

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