new alternative outdoor series?

Edited Date/Time 10/18/2013 4:35pm
I know this is sort of a pipe dream but its something ive thought about often for quite awhile. like many of others ive talked to over the past few years im not all that happy with the current outdoor series that MX Sports and the AMA are running. I along with so many others feel that something was lost when the rules were changed allowing four strokes a greater displacement advantage over two stroke. just go to any message forum and the topic of four stroke vs two stroke is brought up over and over. its pretty obvious that most fans want a level playing field in regards to displacement but MX Sports and the AMA claim that the will lose funding from the manufactures. so the question is, what would it take to start an alternative outdoor series without MXSports, the AMA, and the manufactures involvement? could a series survive with funding from the bike manufactures? I certainly don't have the capabilities to do this but there has to be people in the industry that do. what do you guys think?
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FreshTopEnd
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10/15/2013 12:35pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2013 12:37pm
Very deep pockets. You have to go very big on purse to attract the talent and teams that would interest outside money.

$15-20 million to do it right probably.
10/15/2013 12:36pm
I know this is sort of a pipe dream but its something ive thought about often for quite awhile. like many of others ive talked to...
I know this is sort of a pipe dream but its something ive thought about often for quite awhile. like many of others ive talked to over the past few years im not all that happy with the current outdoor series that MX Sports and the AMA are running. I along with so many others feel that something was lost when the rules were changed allowing four strokes a greater displacement advantage over two stroke. just go to any message forum and the topic of four stroke vs two stroke is brought up over and over. its pretty obvious that most fans want a level playing field in regards to displacement but MX Sports and the AMA claim that the will lose funding from the manufactures. so the question is, what would it take to start an alternative outdoor series without MXSports, the AMA, and the manufactures involvement? could a series survive with funding from the bike manufactures? I certainly don't have the capabilities to do this but there has to be people in the industry that do. what do you guys think?
yes lets split the series, it worked so well for indycar,
mxnick
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10/15/2013 12:46pm
People have short memories - or are not aware of history.

Feld Motorsports (then called SFX, but still run by Charlie Mancuso and many of the same folks who are still there today) tried their own non AMA but professional motorcycle racing series back in 2000.

They put together and ran both professional Road Racing and a professional Flat track series and hosted races all over the USA.

They had very good purses, and even attracted some top riders like John Hopkins and Chris Carr.

But it failed after one season. And they spent a ton of $ doing it.

So did Boo-Koo Arenacross series...

So did the Indy Car split.

If Feld tried - and failed, what does that tell you?
chapmanmx
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10/15/2013 1:12pm
Holy shit people...What do you guys think we are losing with the four strokes? The racing is still good...I know that you don't have the same sound and magical feelings inside, but get over it...It doesn't mean the whole series should completely change. Most of the manufactures don't even make two stokes; so they aren't going to pay for a series they have no bikes in. If you want to complain about someone and call for the end of their business; go after Kawasaki, Honda, blah blah blah and blame them...if that doesn't work you can blame the AMA, EPA, or whoever else you want to. The pros race four strokes now, that's just how it is.

Why is it so important to so many of you for them to change the pro racing format. I mean if you are pissed that you have to ride your 250 two stroke against 450s in your local vet race, that's one thing. But the pro level has nothing to do with 95% of the people on here. I think the "racing would be better" argument is absolute horse shit. If you want the racing to be better, use your time to make some better track designs.

The only plausible argument is that privateers (especially in the 250 class) have an ultimately harder time with bike problems/money issues than with the two strokes. As far as that goes, I have no answer.

The worst thing that could happen to the sport is for it to "split" it's series. I mean, how could you logically think that things would be better or that an extra series would even be successful for that matter

The Shop

GrapeApe
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10/15/2013 1:28pm
Great, another new screen name weighing in on this topic.
10/15/2013 2:01pm
Instead of starting an entirely new organization I think it would be much smarter to build a second series based off of the Pro's bye weekends.

On the Pro's off weekend hold races that are 2 stroke only. Riders must have a AMA Pro card.

Find good sponsors. Good tracks and offer a big purse for the riders. The series would be 3 or 4 races (depending on how many "off" weeks the Pro schedule has) spread across the country... 1 West Coast - 1 Race East Coast - 1 Race Midwest - 1 Race South.

Most of the top factory guy's wouldn't show up but I would guess that a lot of guys who run 10th and back would, especially if the money was right.

If there was a "PRO" 2 stroke race within 4-5 hours of me I know I would go.

Just my 2 cents.
ImTheDude
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10/15/2013 3:53pm
"Holy shit people...What do you guys think we are losing with the four strokes? "

style, lots of style.
newmann
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10/15/2013 4:08pm
ImTheDude wrote:
"Holy shit people...What do you guys think we are losing with the four strokes? "

style, lots of style.
And lots of riders to injuries in the 450 class. Always hoping there will be enough SX survivors to keep the outdoors good.
chillrich
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10/15/2013 4:10pm
Maybe GuyB should consider a separate Two Stroke Only forum.
10/15/2013 4:12pm
I'm curious on how many current professionals would even make the switch to two strokes if the rules changed.

I do not think another series would help, however I do think a few more big "one off" races like the MEC with whatever class structure they wanted would be awesome.
early
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10/15/2013 4:54pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2013 4:55pm
chillrich wrote:
Maybe GuyB should consider a separate Two Stroke Only forum.
How about a 2T vs 4T forum?

Honestly, why not start small with the reintroduction of 2 stroke pro racing , with a pro 125 Arenacross class?

Or even smaller, 2 stroke vet class at the MEC! I bet $100, 000 would bring out some of the 2 stroke riders everyone has such fond memories of.
bobby397
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10/15/2013 4:56pm
Doubt it last more than two years.....
Indy mxer
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10/15/2013 5:10pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2013 5:13pm
chapmanmx wrote:
Holy shit people...What do you guys think we are losing with the four strokes? The racing is still good...I know that you don't have the same...
Holy shit people...What do you guys think we are losing with the four strokes? The racing is still good...I know that you don't have the same sound and magical feelings inside, but get over it...It doesn't mean the whole series should completely change. Most of the manufactures don't even make two stokes; so they aren't going to pay for a series they have no bikes in. If you want to complain about someone and call for the end of their business; go after Kawasaki, Honda, blah blah blah and blame them...if that doesn't work you can blame the AMA, EPA, or whoever else you want to. The pros race four strokes now, that's just how it is.

Why is it so important to so many of you for them to change the pro racing format. I mean if you are pissed that you have to ride your 250 two stroke against 450s in your local vet race, that's one thing. But the pro level has nothing to do with 95% of the people on here. I think the "racing would be better" argument is absolute horse shit. If you want the racing to be better, use your time to make some better track designs.

The only plausible argument is that privateers (especially in the 250 class) have an ultimately harder time with bike problems/money issues than with the two strokes. As far as that goes, I have no answer.

The worst thing that could happen to the sport is for it to "split" it's series. I mean, how could you logically think that things would be better or that an extra series would even be successful for that matter
Great points chapmanmx.
So lets review.
We get to watch mx live on tv in HD.
The racing is as good as ever. The facilities are better and the tracks are brutally rough. Tons of talented riders. Great points battles and plenty of drama. Large crowds.
Yeah, we need another series.

As far as the 2 strokes go, give it a rest. I too wish the OEMs made them again so we would have a choice. But they don't.
I also think a 125 is a good stepping stone for a rider coming out of the 85cc class.
But I would argue, most riders would opt for a 4 stroke because they're more fun and easier to ride. IMO

At the races around here it's 95% 4 stroke even though 2 strokes are available here.
And the 250cc classes are just that, any 250. But their still is not very many.
10/15/2013 5:15pm
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs.

If you were talking about the glorified Monster Energy advertisement we call supercross, I could support you on that.
motogrady
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10/15/2013 5:25pm
Thing is, the AMA has a ton of history.
And tradition.
All the great ones, in the USA anyway, were AMA Champions.
Not BooKoo, not WERA, not NEMA (or whatever they call it in New England).

Sure, show the money and the big guys would come.
But where you gonna get that kind of money?

Even if you went to the AMA and said,
"I'll give you half a million to put your logo and run the races in the Fall",
the powers that be would fight it.
tp4
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10/15/2013 5:33pm
if you may dream... there should be an outdoor fall series 4-5 races..on great tracks...
The Rock
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10/15/2013 5:47pm
tp4 wrote:
if you may dream... there should be an outdoor fall series 4-5 races..on great tracks...
on great tracks....with Euros and Americans battling it out ala a 21st century Trans AM series
Brad460
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Fantasy
10/15/2013 5:51pm
Again...thank god MEC is this weekend!
Highsider
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10/15/2013 6:09pm
The newbie is a pretty good fisherman.
Mxdnusa
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10/15/2013 6:11pm
And get a good tv deal for me. Run it October to January. Thanks. And don't forget the sidecars.
10/15/2013 6:14pm
Just let 250 2 strokes race with 250f's, it's done in Australia and no one whinges. The kid who won under 19's did it on a two banger and I think guys ran top 5 in lites with a 250 2 stroke.
ga_pike
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10/15/2013 6:40pm
Actually, a fall/winter series is a good idea, especially for the guys outside the top 10 who need to make $$$ to fund the next racing season. Kind of like they used to run back in the day with the Florida Winter Series. If someone had some deep pockets and time to invest into it, you might be able to put together a pretty decent series. I know we see MA800 running some larger events right now... build off races like that. I do think it may be easier to do a regional series at first, keep the travel down. Now, that may limit some of the guys who participate, but if the prize $$$ is right, you could get some pretty big names. May also be beneficial to not run consecutive weeks so that these guys get some family time... maybe even work in some perks like 6 Flags Over Georgia Day, Disney Day, etc. Something to make it more than just a race. And don't charge the pros an entry fee, matter of fact, try to find a way that it doesn't cost them out of pocket to attend... or at least limit the costs. Sponsors, amatuer day, spectators... this is where the money would be "made".

Truth be told, you'd most likely find a big chunk of the series out of your own pocket for a few years until it grew enough to get better backing. But for someone with very deep pockets, it is a possibility.
mynewcr250
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10/15/2013 7:27pm
motokiwi wrote:
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs. If you were talking about the glorified Monster...
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs.

If you were talking about the glorified Monster Energy advertisement we call supercross, I could support you on that.
HAHAHAHAH there are 7.1 BILLION people and you don't think anyone can compare to DC.

LOFUCKINGL.
10/15/2013 7:43pm
did the fans flock to the 2 Stroke Champs at Glen Helen?

the only thing i can remember reading about it, is the fight on the start line, and the resulting law suite,
10/15/2013 9:54pm
In my opinion the 2 strokes chewed up the track in a different way than a 4 stroke. The 2 strokes made the tracks very choppy and I think it was more technical. I've noticed the tires hold up longer on the 4 strokes and they produce long ruts from the smooth power delivery. Could be the tracks have been set up for high speed too. I'd be interested in finding out how different the suspension set up or valving is now from the 80s. I think the 2 stroke racing was more interesting personally.
lostboy819
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Fantasy
10/15/2013 10:15pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2013 10:19pm
I don't think we need a new series, I think DC and mx sports do a great job and the only thing I would change is the displacement rules so that 2 or 4 strokes can race head to head. The first year for a competitive production 4 stoke was 1998 with Henry winning a SX in 97 so for the last 15 years they have had a huge advantage so now might be a good time to level the playing field. Does anyone really think that the 450 4 strokes would not still rule the big bike class. The 250 class would be another story and change is good.

DC is doing a great job I just think that now is a good time to make some changes and I would love to see a 125 class make a come back. Lots of us may have a different opinion then DC but I can assure you he is respected by us and I am glad he is running the show and the way he handled that shit stain Jeff Alessi was great, now the AMA could be dumped and I don't think anyone would mind.
OW38B
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10/15/2013 11:22pm
motokiwi wrote:
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs. If you were talking about the glorified Monster...
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs.

If you were talking about the glorified Monster Energy advertisement we call supercross, I could support you on that.
mynewcr250 wrote:
HAHAHAHAH there are 7.1 BILLION people and you don't think anyone can compare to DC.

LOFUCKINGL.
Holy Smokes! How on earth were they able to put on Nationals for almost 40 years before MxSports & DC came around?

While MXSports is doing a decent job with the Nationals, let's not anoint them quite yet shall we?

Sorry DC, but some of your minions are just loony.
bvm111
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10/15/2013 11:25pm
its called a free market, if you build it they will come!!!

why do you guys come on here trying to dictate or influence what DC has accomplished? If you want this than start your own series and compete against the established series, if you are more succesful and truly feel you are the pied piper of MX than please move forward and invest your time energy and money and make something out of it.

until then please just STFU and realize the biggest travisty in MX is cloe jacks being robbed of miss MEC!!!!
Shawn142
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10/16/2013 3:41am
motokiwi wrote:
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs. If you were talking about the glorified Monster...
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs.

If you were talking about the glorified Monster Energy advertisement we call supercross, I could support you on that.
mynewcr250 wrote:
HAHAHAHAH there are 7.1 BILLION people and you don't think anyone can compare to DC.

LOFUCKINGL.
OW38B wrote:
Holy Smokes! How on earth were they able to put on Nationals for almost 40 years before MxSports & DC came around? While MXSports is doing...
Holy Smokes! How on earth were they able to put on Nationals for almost 40 years before MxSports & DC came around?

While MXSports is doing a decent job with the Nationals, let's not anoint them quite yet shall we?

Sorry DC, but some of your minions are just loony.
motokiwi wasn't talking about MX Sports, he was talking about DC. Anyone who has sat and bench raced with DC for even a few minutes in person realizes they don't know half as much about this sport as he does in terms of history. No matter what you think of his company's job running the nationals DC is pure moto.

What it breaks down to in the end is talk here doesn't translate to fans in the stands or bikes on the line in real life. At least not so far in the events that are already run like the 2-stroke World Championships at Glen Helen. It's the track everyone here seems so in love with and the engine platform that is supposed to be taking over the world again. The race has been around a few years now and it still doesn't get full gates in either pro class. Our local annual "2-stroke only" race at Cycle Ranch doesn't even draw like a normal weekend event. While the 2-stroke cause is noble I don't think the real support is there for a full blown series unless someone puts up enough money to make it worth buying a bike for just a few rounds.
motogrady
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10/16/2013 5:29am
motokiwi wrote:
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs. If you were talking about the glorified Monster...
LOL, no other human exists who has half the passion, and could run half the series DC runs.

If you were talking about the glorified Monster Energy advertisement we call supercross, I could support you on that.
mynewcr250 wrote:
HAHAHAHAH there are 7.1 BILLION people and you don't think anyone can compare to DC.

LOFUCKINGL.
OW38B wrote:
Holy Smokes! How on earth were they able to put on Nationals for almost 40 years before MxSports & DC came around? While MXSports is doing...
Holy Smokes! How on earth were they able to put on Nationals for almost 40 years before MxSports & DC came around?

While MXSports is doing a decent job with the Nationals, let's not anoint them quite yet shall we?

Sorry DC, but some of your minions are just loony.
Well, from the beginning, from the very start in the USA, it was Dave Coombs Sr.
that pioneered many of the venues, and races, that came to be what we now call The Outdoors.

Tell me, my friends, out of 7 billion people, who else has that pedigree?
Who else has stepped up to the plate and devoted his life to the sport on a National level?
Who has the knowledge, the contacts, the plain gumption to take Coombs Jr.s job?

Tell me, I want to know.

And while you're at it, explain why the guy that runs Youthsream has no peer?
Is Loungo the only guy in all of Europe that can get things done?

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