Clean-up on aisle DC

burn1986
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10/13/2013 8:37am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 8:38am
Its interesting how long these threads go since this is the topic and change that practically everyone but MX management wants to see. I even think DC and all the venders associated would like to see this change too, but the OEMs (mainly Honda) have said no.
holeshot100
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10/13/2013 8:40am
smeg wrote:
"Why doesn't a Ryan Sipes grab that ride? Why doesn't a rider like Blose, Peick, Kiniry, Nicoletti, Larsen,Friese, lamay, Chisholm, Lemoine, or any other racer that...
"Why doesn't a Ryan Sipes grab that ride? Why doesn't a rider like Blose, Peick, Kiniry, Nicoletti, Larsen,Friese, lamay, Chisholm, Lemoine, or any other racer that has the ability to be one of the 20 riders to make a main event want to take a paying ride?

The reason....the bike is at a disadvantage...plain and simple....four strokes put the power to the ground better with a longer RPM range providing strong power."

Dude........ They don't do it because they have to race a 250 against a 450............... Duh..... Sorry but that was stupid example.

If those guys could race 250 against 250 they would jump at the offer.
250 two stroke against 250 four stroke... it doesn't matter if they are racing against eachother in the same CC class.....you are at a disadvantage on the two stroke.........go ask Mitch Payton...don't take my word for it.
smeg
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10/13/2013 8:48am
250 two stroke against 250 four stroke... it doesn't matter if they are racing against eachother in the same CC class.....you are at a disadvantage on...
250 two stroke against 250 four stroke... it doesn't matter if they are racing against eachother in the same CC class.....you are at a disadvantage on the two stroke.........go ask Mitch Payton...don't take my word for it.
By that logic there is no reason NOT to allow for equal displacement. According to you the 250 2 stroke is inferior so why not allow then in the 250 class? No one would race them anyway because they are a disadvantage, right?


By the way, I have been reading DCs' replies, and while I don't necessarily agree. I can appreciate his point of view and the concerns he has in this regard. While I would like to see an equal displacement rule, I would have to defer to his opinions considering he is much more knowledgeable as to the health of the sport than I.
smeg
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10/13/2013 8:57am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 8:58am
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a heartbeat.

One of the things DC is concerned about.

The Shop

holeshot100
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10/13/2013 9:01am
smeg wrote:
By that logic there is no reason NOT to allow for equal displacement. According to you the 250 2 stroke is inferior so why not allow...
By that logic there is no reason NOT to allow for equal displacement. According to you the 250 2 stroke is inferior so why not allow then in the 250 class? No one would race them anyway because they are a disadvantage, right?


By the way, I have been reading DCs' replies, and while I don't necessarily agree. I can appreciate his point of view and the concerns he has in this regard. While I would like to see an equal displacement rule, I would have to defer to his opinions considering he is much more knowledgeable as to the health of the sport than I.
I am all for same displacement, but it isn't going to change the results of your top 20 racers, even in the 250 class. Could some two strokes make it into the main in the 250 class? Perhaps if someone actually raced one. The generation of kids coming into the pros in the last 5 years have not ridden a two stroke since they were riding a supermini in amateurs.....you see... the only big bike they have ridden at a higher level of racing is a four stroke, so not only would they be at a disadvantage bikewise, they don't have the experience riding the machine. It's called evolution.
Shawn142
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10/13/2013 9:03am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 9:05am
I know everyone likes to vilify the AMA and MX Sports for this issue, but it's not only them fighting the push. It's not all as black and white as Vital wants to make it seem. Mitch Payton along with all the other team managers who put big money into their 250F programs are strongly opposed to it too, you can prove that to yourself by listening to any number of interviews Mitch has done in the past few years on the topic.

Their angle is obviously different. Mitch hates the idea because his brand doesn't even make a 2-stroke he can race, and that's a disadvantage. He along with Geico and all the other factory supported 250 programs just want a level playing field. The same options as other brand(s) would have if the rules were to change.
burn1986
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10/13/2013 9:07am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 9:10am
There's no worry because the pro rules wont change in the US. The only possible change in the future would be the elimination of 2-strokes fully, and the reduction of 4-stroke displacements.
holeshot100
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10/13/2013 9:10am
smeg wrote:
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a...
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a heartbeat.

One of the things DC is concerned about.
Yeah when Mitch Payton gets his hands on that new KX250 two stroke you better watch out.
smeg
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10/13/2013 9:10am
I think that whole post is wrong......... You put Eli Tomac on a PC 250f and let him ride Budds Creek for a thirty minute moto.

Give him an hours rest and then cut him loose for a thirty minute moto on a PC KX250.

I think the results would surprise you.
DC
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10/13/2013 9:31am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 9:33am
Burn, there posts go and go because the same people bring the same argument and stubbornness and frustration to every response, time and again. I try to answer, time and again, but it falls on deaf ears (or eyes, in this case). This is like the gridlock in Washington, only it's about two-strokes.

And it's time to move on to other issues, for me anyway.

DC
MX Sports
OW38B
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10/13/2013 9:55am
DC wrote:
Burn, there posts go and go because the same people bring the same argument and stubbornness and frustration to every response, time and again. I try...
Burn, there posts go and go because the same people bring the same argument and stubbornness and frustration to every response, time and again. I try to answer, time and again, but it falls on deaf ears (or eyes, in this case). This is like the gridlock in Washington, only it's about two-strokes.

And it's time to move on to other issues, for me anyway.

DC
MX Sports
Thanks for playing.........
burn1986
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10/13/2013 10:00am
No prob DC. Moving on. BTW I actually agreed with you on one point but I think you missed it.
Moto_Geek
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10/13/2013 10:17am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 10:18am
I sold my 2012 KTM 4 stroke and I just bought a 2014 KTM 300xc. Probably the best bike I've ever ridden.. Grunts like a 4 stroke on the bottom and opens up on the top. 300cc is going to be a topic as people discover as I did that this combination is best of 4stroke and 2 stroke characteristics. And the bike rides light as hell and easy to throw it around. 9 out of the 10 of the 2014 300xc's sold at my local dealership in 1 week of delivery last month.
10/13/2013 10:20am
I feel sorry for Davey because both sides believe their right and won't or can't budge from their point of view. Sort of dang if you do, dang if you don't. How about a nice game of chess?"
10/13/2013 10:27am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 10:44am
smeg wrote:
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a...
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a heartbeat.

One of the things DC is concerned about.
Yeah when Mitch Payton gets his hands on that new KX250 two stroke you better watch out.
LOL, why should we watch out when you just posted that Mitch Payton said the 250 would be at a disadvantage anyways? he's a tuner/owner that is in it to WIN, no other reason. so why would he go back to the disadvantaged 2 stroke if he gets his hands on one like you said? you dont really know what the hell youre talking about, but you try Smile

the fact that Coombs confirmed that the OEM want to keep the 2 strokes out is ALL the info you should need. its not a bunch of internet BS, its the truth now. they genuinely feel threatened that the 2 stroke would shine and they dont want it to shine because they dont sell one and dont want to. you think honda wants ktm or yamaha to be allowed to race 250 vs 250? no. their plan is to make money, and they make more money off 4 strokes, so you keep the 2 strokes from companies that that decided to keep them around, OUT of professional racing. what wins on Sunday sells on Monday, and they dont want anything but a 4 stroke selling on Monday, so it can break on Tuesday and come back to the shop on Wednesday.

People route for underdogs. a lot. forget about winning, do you think the OEMs want to see a couple 2 strokes even finish in the top 10 in the 250 class? no because even that will get the guys who like the underdog to go out and buy the cheaper overall bike in initial purchase and over the long haul.
ocscottie
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10/13/2013 10:30am
burn1986
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10/13/2013 10:33am
Has Tim Tebow been signed yet?
holeshot100
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10/13/2013 12:20pm
smeg wrote:
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a...
....and..... If there was a permanent equal displacement rule instituted by the AMA I have little doubt Mitch would switch back to two strokes in a heartbeat.

One of the things DC is concerned about.
Yeah when Mitch Payton gets his hands on that new KX250 two stroke you better watch out.
mynewcr250 wrote:
LOL, why should we watch out when you just posted that Mitch Payton said the 250 would be at a disadvantage anyways? he's a tuner/owner that...
LOL, why should we watch out when you just posted that Mitch Payton said the 250 would be at a disadvantage anyways? he's a tuner/owner that is in it to WIN, no other reason. so why would he go back to the disadvantaged 2 stroke if he gets his hands on one like you said? you dont really know what the hell youre talking about, but you try Smile

the fact that Coombs confirmed that the OEM want to keep the 2 strokes out is ALL the info you should need. its not a bunch of internet BS, its the truth now. they genuinely feel threatened that the 2 stroke would shine and they dont want it to shine because they dont sell one and dont want to. you think honda wants ktm or yamaha to be allowed to race 250 vs 250? no. their plan is to make money, and they make more money off 4 strokes, so you keep the 2 strokes from companies that that decided to keep them around, OUT of professional racing. what wins on Sunday sells on Monday, and they dont want anything but a 4 stroke selling on Monday, so it can break on Tuesday and come back to the shop on Wednesday.

People route for underdogs. a lot. forget about winning, do you think the OEMs want to see a couple 2 strokes even finish in the top 10 in the 250 class? no because even that will get the guys who like the underdog to go out and buy the cheaper overall bike in initial purchase and over the long haul.
You ever heard of sarcasm. When is the last time you have seen a new KX250 two stroke?

It is about the manufactures making money. I get that. The majority of money made by the manufactures is not the sales of bikes themselves, but for all those additional moving parts that need replacement.
bd
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10/13/2013 12:32pm
Seriously though, do you think Stern would be shooting the shit with NBA fans or Roger Goodell with NFL fans?

Thank you DC.
10/13/2013 12:46pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 12:48pm
I would not be holding the Australian series up as the be all and end all, their rider counts are way down, and from the Canadian Rounds i have followed, they dont seem to have to many riders having to qualify to get on the gate either

The US nationals are the strongest supported series in the world, the riders trying to qualify make every other series look sick, trying to say Europe gets it is a bit of a reach, they run separate series because they have to fill up the 2 day events, the US series ones on one day, and i have to say, the last 2 GP's I went to in 2011 drag'd on with a heap of down time at the track, the one day format that DC runs is much superior IMO, I am not sure you can say that the rules are wrong for the US nationals when they are getting the most riders of any series in the world, by a long margin, holding Europe up as an example is a joke, Luongo's cash cow is not the best series in the world,

and one last thing DC, Darryll King won 2 championships in NZ on a YZ250, not Australia, we were the fist country to put the 2 strokes in with the 250F's in 2007, and I was one of the people that really pushed for it, 250F's still dominate the class with this year only 3 250 2 strokes in the top 15, There is still debate among the riders if they should be in the class, the big advantage of the 2 stroke is the starts, the disadvantage is holding onto them for 20 minutes plus one lap,
malachi177
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10/13/2013 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 1:01pm
scott_nz wrote:
I would not be holding the Australian series up as the be all and end all, their rider counts are way down, and from the Canadian...
I would not be holding the Australian series up as the be all and end all, their rider counts are way down, and from the Canadian Rounds i have followed, they dont seem to have to many riders having to qualify to get on the gate either

The US nationals are the strongest supported series in the world, the riders trying to qualify make every other series look sick, trying to say Europe gets it is a bit of a reach, they run separate series because they have to fill up the 2 day events, the US series ones on one day, and i have to say, the last 2 GP's I went to in 2011 drag'd on with a heap of down time at the track, the one day format that DC runs is much superior IMO, I am not sure you can say that the rules are wrong for the US nationals when they are getting the most riders of any series in the world, by a long margin, holding Europe up as an example is a joke, Luongo's cash cow is not the best series in the world,

and one last thing DC, Darryll King won 2 championships in NZ on a YZ250, not Australia, we were the fist country to put the 2 strokes in with the 250F's in 2007, and I was one of the people that really pushed for it, 250F's still dominate the class with this year only 3 250 2 strokes in the top 15, There is still debate among the riders if they should be in the class, the big advantage of the 2 stroke is the starts, the disadvantage is holding onto them for 20 minutes plus one lap,
There were about 60 mx2 riders on average trying to qualify for the Canadian National rounds.
10/13/2013 12:57pm
scott_nz wrote:
I would not be holding the Australian series up as the be all and end all, their rider counts are way down, and from the Canadian...
I would not be holding the Australian series up as the be all and end all, their rider counts are way down, and from the Canadian Rounds i have followed, they dont seem to have to many riders having to qualify to get on the gate either

The US nationals are the strongest supported series in the world, the riders trying to qualify make every other series look sick, trying to say Europe gets it is a bit of a reach, they run separate series because they have to fill up the 2 day events, the US series ones on one day, and i have to say, the last 2 GP's I went to in 2011 drag'd on with a heap of down time at the track, the one day format that DC runs is much superior IMO, I am not sure you can say that the rules are wrong for the US nationals when they are getting the most riders of any series in the world, by a long margin, holding Europe up as an example is a joke, Luongo's cash cow is not the best series in the world,

and one last thing DC, Darryll King won 2 championships in NZ on a YZ250, not Australia, we were the fist country to put the 2 strokes in with the 250F's in 2007, and I was one of the people that really pushed for it, 250F's still dominate the class with this year only 3 250 2 strokes in the top 15, There is still debate among the riders if they should be in the class, the big advantage of the 2 stroke is the starts, the disadvantage is holding onto them for 20 minutes plus one lap,
malachi177 wrote:
There were about 60 mx2 riders on average trying to qualify for the Canadian National rounds.
sorry, mistaken there, was much better than i thought, for some reason I thought it was only in the mid 30's in the races,
10/13/2013 1:18pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I remember a bunch of two-strokes STUCK at the bottom at the MXdN
I remember a bunch of four-strokes STUCK in the corners at Daytona.
Mxcrayz
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10/13/2013 1:23pm
peelout wrote:
Get real Bro [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/10/12/33934/s1200_daily_afternoon_randomness_in_hq_44_photos39.jpg[/img]
Get real Bro

Best part of this thread, sweet!
themrtoad
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10/13/2013 1:48pm
I don't buy the answer that we can't make a change now because the state of the economy. When things don't work you have to have the guts to make a change,

Also I Think it's not only the state of the economy but also the state of the sport. MX is loosing ground for several reasons. Loud decibels that travel far and to expensive Equipment is the easiest step to take, and we all know the cure for that.

Fuck Honda, our sport is better of without them if so.
OW38B
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10/13/2013 1:51pm
ocscottie wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/10/13/33949/s1200_b1d.jpg[/img]
Well we keep getting told this.........but here we are. Shocked
KMC440
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10/13/2013 1:55pm
I feel sorry for Davey because both sides believe their right and won't or can't budge from their point of view. Sort of dang if you...
I feel sorry for Davey because both sides believe their right and won't or can't budge from their point of view. Sort of dang if you do, dang if you don't. How about a nice game of chess?"
https://youtu.be/uCWKZWieMSY

I'd love a game of chess, but Tic-Tac-Toe seems better here.

Cool
2b
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10/13/2013 3:01pm
DC wrote:
Burn, there posts go and go because the same people bring the same argument and stubbornness and frustration to every response, time and again. I try...
Burn, there posts go and go because the same people bring the same argument and stubbornness and frustration to every response, time and again. I try to answer, time and again, but it falls on deaf ears (or eyes, in this case). This is like the gridlock in Washington, only it's about two-strokes.

And it's time to move on to other issues, for me anyway.

DC
MX Sports
Falls on deaf ears alright... "all arguments presented to DC" AND all the examples of other countries around the world that allow equal displacement and is working. IGNORED.. "the U.S.A is center of the universe those other countries don't matter, what do they know mentality"

CC vs CC will grow the sport.. you only need to look at all the examples of people who would not be racing if a 2stroke option didnt exist. I am one of them, i cant afford to maintain a 4 stroke throughout the race season. if the manufactorers wont produce them because of America's unfair displacement rules then i guess eventually i will have to quit MX all-together. I dont want a KTM or some 6 year old BNG 2stroke.
10/13/2013 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 3:21pm
2b wrote:
Falls on deaf ears alright... "all arguments presented to DC" AND all the examples of other countries around the world that allow equal displacement and is...
Falls on deaf ears alright... "all arguments presented to DC" AND all the examples of other countries around the world that allow equal displacement and is working. IGNORED.. "the U.S.A is center of the universe those other countries don't matter, what do they know mentality"

CC vs CC will grow the sport.. you only need to look at all the examples of people who would not be racing if a 2stroke option didnt exist. I am one of them, i cant afford to maintain a 4 stroke throughout the race season. if the manufactorers wont produce them because of America's unfair displacement rules then i guess eventually i will have to quit MX all-together. I dont want a KTM or some 6 year old BNG 2stroke.
how on earth does it effect your racing because the USA Nationals do not allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class, all racing in NZ is cc to cc? their were brand new RM250's for sale up till the start of the year here,

the reason kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda do not sell 250 2 strokes, or yamaha does not spend any money on theirs is because when they made both models, they sold 10 x 250F's to one 250 2 stroke, and since dirt bike sales world wide have halved since 2007, (although this year starting to show some life) the commercial decision was to keep the model that sold,
10/13/2013 3:45pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2013 3:49pm
2b wrote:
Falls on deaf ears alright... "all arguments presented to DC" AND all the examples of other countries around the world that allow equal displacement and is...
Falls on deaf ears alright... "all arguments presented to DC" AND all the examples of other countries around the world that allow equal displacement and is working. IGNORED.. "the U.S.A is center of the universe those other countries don't matter, what do they know mentality"

CC vs CC will grow the sport.. you only need to look at all the examples of people who would not be racing if a 2stroke option didnt exist. I am one of them, i cant afford to maintain a 4 stroke throughout the race season. if the manufactorers wont produce them because of America's unfair displacement rules then i guess eventually i will have to quit MX all-together. I dont want a KTM or some 6 year old BNG 2stroke.
scott_nz wrote:
how on earth does it effect your racing because the USA Nationals do not allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class, all racing in NZ...
how on earth does it effect your racing because the USA Nationals do not allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class, all racing in NZ is cc to cc? their were brand new RM250's for sale up till the start of the year here,

the reason kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda do not sell 250 2 strokes, or yamaha does not spend any money on theirs is because when they made both models, they sold 10 x 250F's to one 250 2 stroke, and since dirt bike sales world wide have halved since 2007, (although this year starting to show some life) the commercial decision was to keep the model that sold,
scott_nz: 10 to 1? i see these claims all the time, yet i see no proof. show us where you get these figures. mercedes probably sells 10 to 1 c-class vs s-class yet they dont cut the highline vehicles out just because of sales. there is a market for everything, and they would sell the same 2007 or whatever 2 strokes even to this day almost unchanged just like yamaha does, they simply dont want to because if you give someone a choice of a simple 2 stroke or a complicated 4 stroke, some guys will take the 2 stroke, and thats not good in the long run.

2b: i feel for you not having an "updated" jap choice really, but since youre not at the pro level, you dont really need a brand new model year 2 stroke to be competitive. you can get a honda as new as 07, a suzuki as new as 12, a yam/ktm as new as 13, a husky/tm as new as 14. there are choices out there, you just have a biased view on whats "good enough" for you.

besides, those rules dont apply to you. btw, its not "the manufacturers wont produce them because of America's unfair displacement rule", the rules are they way they are because thats how the MFGs WANT it. read the 250 vs 250 thread. its all there, out in the light from Coombs himself, the rules are catered to the MFGs because the MFGs want it that way. its an attempt to keep the MFGs involved...dont blame Americas unfair displacement rule, blame the very OEM you want to start making a bike that asked to kill them in the first place. nothing like supporting the 2 stroke movement by buying a bike from the very companies that slit the throat of them.

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