Should we ban starting devices?

FreshTopEnd
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7/19/2013 10:35am
I think we should ban barn doors; then people wouldn't leave them open and allow the horses to get out.
FreshTopEnd
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7/19/2013 10:53am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 12:06pm
newmann wrote:
A 450 probably heads into the first turn a tad faster than a 250 2 stroke as well.....hmmmmm. But what Ozzy stated is where the focus...
A 450 probably heads into the first turn a tad faster than a 250 2 stroke as well.....hmmmmm. But what Ozzy stated is where the focus needs to be. None of the advancements in bikes over the last few decades has done anything to make the actual racing any better. I guarantee that if every single rider on the gate at a 450 national today was on a brand new, race prepped 1990 model 250 the racing would be just as "good" as it is right now.
gt80rider wrote:
quite possibly the best post ever on Vital..........
Not arguing the strokes thing or whatever other agendas are at play, but I can't let rhetoric as faulty as that fly unnoticed. Why not insert XR75's for a 1990 model 250. That racing would be pretty good.

Is that a dopey thought in it's extreme; yeah, only because Joe's point begs the real issue. If we were racing 2013 two strokes, you could still make the same statement; the racing would be good if they were on 1990 bikes instead.

One of the things works bike worshipers pine about is the loss of trickness and the development process that attended those bike. But development didn't stop; the OEM always try to make a better product for racing and for sales. That's the nature of things, in bikes or computers or cars or whatever. Bikes just developed differently without works bikes, but they didn't stop developing. In spite of the conspiracy theorists, I don't think anyone planned or intended that the situation today was the intended point B destination from the starting place of point A back in the mid 90's when Husaberg and a few other off brands started running competitive four strokes. It was an ongoing incremental process where people made an unfolding series of decisions along the way, which included both rules makers underestimating the upside of four stroke development consumers buying into four strokes and ignoring two strokes until they dropped off the production cycle with some of the major brands.

I don't know that the biggest equation ~ the talent of the riders ~ would play out a lot differently one way or the other. RC was kicking the crap out of everyone on two strokes, and so was Stewart. The top talent still is just that much better still today. Certainly guys who lack support (usually because they are not fast enough at this level) would have an cheaper go of it in the small bike class if they didn't have to run hopped up 250f's in the delusion that they can compete with the fastest guys on the fastest teams, and you might have a few more riders or marginal teams sustaining themselves in top 20. But I don't know that it makes the racing a lot better.
KINGRV1
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7/19/2013 11:23am
I think they should race stock bikes, they should only be able to respring the forks and shock for the riders weight.
GuyB
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7/19/2013 11:32am
Yeah. They should get rid of those pesky knobs on the tires, too.

The Shop

ccoady454
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7/19/2013 11:46am
Why not have computer controlled suspension and traction control? It's already became a rich mans sport anyway. Might as well make it like politics....the man with the most money gets the most support. Put on every go-fast-easier device and take human error out of the equation. That way, JS7 won't be the only person blaming the equipment for his loss.
newmann
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7/19/2013 11:56am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 11:56am
Mitch Payton called it a dozen years ago. But then again, what does he know.....
FlaNard
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7/19/2013 11:58am
Choppy wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't move back to older bikes,but old men that no longer enjoy the sport should move on...
Man you're such a little contrarian bitch anymore. Oh forgot to add...
CAB214
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7/19/2013 12:49pm
Choppy wrote:
We had just as many first turn crashes before starting devices. Don't turn in to The Rock.
This is true but now with the starting device the riders are going A LOT faster into the first turn than before hence the point that...
This is true but now with the starting device the riders are going A LOT faster into the first turn than before hence the point that was made about starting devices and first turn crashes....I think you may have misinterpreted the actual reason the rock mentioned in context
Choppy wrote:
Is anyone going faster into the first corner than before? Again, we have opinions without any data fueling these "burn them at the stake for being...
Is anyone going faster into the first corner than before? Again, we have opinions without any data fueling these "burn them at the stake for being witches" type arguments.

Crap gets old.
You're silly stupid. If they didn't make you go faster then people wouldn't use them. You know where the data is? Free market data of an upswing in holeshot devices being purchased.

Your argument that it doesn't is just as much of an opinion........ realllll piece of work.
FreshTopEnd
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7/19/2013 12:58pm
CAB214 wrote:
You're silly stupid. If they didn't make you go faster then people wouldn't use them. You know where the data is? Free market data of an...
You're silly stupid. If they didn't make you go faster then people wouldn't use them. You know where the data is? Free market data of an upswing in holeshot devices being purchased.

Your argument that it doesn't is just as much of an opinion........ realllll piece of work.
Wait, so what you're saying is that if a bunch of people buy something, that means it works? Like diet pills? Wink

Honestly, if cost is what warrants banning an add on like a holeshot device (because it no longer makes a difference if everyone owns one), this may not be the best target if one really is trying to put a dent in costs. Start with fuel, given that its a consumable that keeps on taking, unlike a one pop accessory like this.
CamP
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7/19/2013 1:11pm
The device makes consistent starts "easier". Racers should be rewarded for being skilled starters, and the holeshot device diminishes that.
Toste
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Fantasy
7/19/2013 1:16pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 1:28pm
Wait, so what you're saying is that if a bunch of people buy something, that means it works? Like diet pills? ;) Honestly, if cost is...
Wait, so what you're saying is that if a bunch of people buy something, that means it works? Like diet pills? Wink

Honestly, if cost is what warrants banning an add on like a holeshot device (because it no longer makes a difference if everyone owns one), this may not be the best target if one really is trying to put a dent in costs. Start with fuel, given that its a consumable that keeps on taking, unlike a one pop accessory like this.
I wouldn't be anti-spec fuel in pro racing, but that's sort of a separate topic.

I brought up cost before...mainly in the context that peelout mentioned. This is one of those things that has a trickle down effect to the local amateur scene while really adding nothing qualitative to the actual racing.
Moto_Geek
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7/19/2013 1:18pm
Ok so lets recap..

(reads entire thread over a foot long sub)

Just like discussing politics and religion, we have not made any progress on banning the w"hole" paycheck starting device. Guess we can go back to helping the "urgent threads" Happy Friday everyone..

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Happy hour boys and girls..

https://youtu.be/kpdTBaNo2Ao
ccoady454
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7/19/2013 1:21pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 1:27pm
If RV put tassels on the end of his grips, every Kawasaki 250f and 450f racer would buy a set. Parts manufacturers know how gullible we are.
Frodad78
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7/19/2013 1:32pm
Classy broad right there, someone slap a ring on that one...
KINGRV1
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7/19/2013 2:57pm
Moto_Geek wrote:
Ok so lets recap.. (reads entire thread over a foot long sub) Just like discussing politics and religion, we have not made any progress on banning...
Ok so lets recap..

(reads entire thread over a foot long sub)

Just like discussing politics and religion, we have not made any progress on banning the w"hole" paycheck starting device. Guess we can go back to helping the "urgent threads" Happy Friday everyone..

:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
Happy hour boys and girls..

https://youtu.be/kpdTBaNo2Ao
Hell yeah, I'd llike to be laying under her on that seat.
Choppy
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US
7/19/2013 3:00pm
ccoady454 wrote:
Why not have computer controlled suspension and traction control? It's already became a rich mans sport anyway. Might as well make it like politics....the man with...
Why not have computer controlled suspension and traction control? It's already became a rich mans sport anyway. Might as well make it like politics....the man with the most money gets the most support. Put on every go-fast-easier device and take human error out of the equation. That way, JS7 won't be the only person blaming the equipment for his loss.
It's already that way.
Choppy
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7/19/2013 3:02pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 3:02pm
Choppy wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't move back to older bikes,but old men that no longer enjoy the sport should move on...
FlaNard wrote:
Man you're such a little contrarian bitch anymore. Oh forgot to add...
Clearly thats what I am....
mjskier
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CO US
7/19/2013 3:45pm
Forget the starting device. What they should do is have a LeMan style start:
Bike parked along the side with engine off. Run to it, start it (hurrah for the electric starter) and go. No more first turn pile up.

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