We need a $4k 125!

burn1986
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burn1986 6/29/2013 9:40pm
6/29/2013 9:40pm
GuyB wrote:
How? It's called reality. You have your fantasy product, and they have the reality of engineering it, manufacturing it, and getting it market. Then sales in...
How? It's called reality. You have your fantasy product, and they have the reality of engineering it, manufacturing it, and getting it market. Then sales in sufficient numbers to make it worthwhile.

My guess is, if there was a business model that supported it, it would have happened already.

Personally, my fantasy product is gas that's 99 cents a gallon.
Hey come on, don't spoil it! Cool
Toste
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Toste 6/29/2013 9:42pm
6/29/2013 9:42pm
CamP wrote:
The reality is that nobody has attempted to make such a product, so there is no business model developed. It's simply outside the box thinking at...
The reality is that nobody has attempted to make such a product, so there is no business model developed. It's simply outside the box thinking at this point.

If Kawasaki built an air cooled 175cc 2-stroke race bike on a 90's era 125 chassis, and retailed them for $4,500, I believe they would sell enough of them for tracks to create classes specifically around them, and there would be a sea of green every time they were on the gate.

For it to become anything more than a pipe dream, some individual is going to have to build a prototype of such a bike on their own, and present it to the world as something with real potential by entering it in real competition and performing well. It wouldn't be that difficult to accomplish.
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think people sometimes underestimate the level of ego/vanity that exists in this sport.

Besides that, of all the things that are driving people away from MX, I would say that new bike costs are pretty far down the list.
CamP
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CamP 6/29/2013 9:50pm
6/29/2013 9:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 10:06pm
Toste wrote:
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think...
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think people sometimes underestimate the level of ego/vanity that exists in this sport.

Besides that, of all the things that are driving people away from MX, I would say that new bike costs are pretty far down the list.
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for 25+ year old bikes can be a problem. On top of that, there isn't an endless supply of 25+ year old race bikes, so your comparison really doesn't make sense.

If you don't understand that new bike costs affect new bike sales, and ultimately local race entry numbers, I can't really help you with an economics lesson. I talk to someone almost every day that says they would like a new bike, but at $8-9k, they are out. Personally, after 30 years of buying a new bike almost every year, I bought my last new bike when I bought a new 08 CRF450. I got it for $4500otd while Honda was blowing out their overstock. At $8k+, I'm not buying a new bike. I would like a new one, but that's stupid money for a dirt bike.
mcopsey
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mcopsey 6/29/2013 9:51pm
6/29/2013 9:51pm
headache wrote:
Yamaha probably still has 1000's of Blaster motors laying around. They are 200cc's makes around 30hp with a midrange port and 34mm carburetor. be a simple...
Yamaha probably still has 1000's of Blaster motors laying around. They are 200cc's makes around 30hp with a midrange port and 34mm carburetor. be a simple air cooled motor, put it in a pre 05 steel frame with half decent forks for $4K. Cha ching! be a winner. I'd buy it.
And when they lock up like ever Blaster motor ever people will complain about the cost to fix...just like everything else you all complain about.

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Terryble
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Terryble 6/29/2013 9:54pm
6/29/2013 9:54pm
Some of the OEM's already do this with their street bikes. Yamaha has the R6 and then for around $4K less they have the FZ6R which uses a lot of older technology to produce a bike that is capable of being ridden much faster than most of your average street riders could ride. Kawasaki has the ZX6R and the Ninja 650R, a similar drop in tech and price.

These are great bikes, they are cheaper and therefore easier to get financed on, and they lack the "yank your arms off" type of power that comes from modern supersport bikes but they still have handling characteristics that make them usable at a track. I don't see why they couldn't do something similar in the dirt market.
GuyB
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GuyB 6/29/2013 9:57pm
6/29/2013 9:57pm
How many of you remember when Chinese pit bikes hit the market? Where are those bikes now?
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/29/2013 9:59pm
6/29/2013 9:59pm
A KMT built KDX200 would be cheaper to produce than the current "Electric-Start" KLX 140L. You could probably benefit fom the KMT built KLX250's suspension, chassis & body-work. Leave the lights & electrical stuff off...Voila. You've got your bike...probably for less than you asked.

Just one problem.

The Manufacturrer isn't a "believer".
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mcopsey 6/29/2013 10:04pm
6/29/2013 10:04pm
Terryble wrote:
Some of the OEM's already do this with their street bikes. Yamaha has the R6 and then for around $4K less they have the FZ6R which...
Some of the OEM's already do this with their street bikes. Yamaha has the R6 and then for around $4K less they have the FZ6R which uses a lot of older technology to produce a bike that is capable of being ridden much faster than most of your average street riders could ride. Kawasaki has the ZX6R and the Ninja 650R, a similar drop in tech and price.

These are great bikes, they are cheaper and therefore easier to get financed on, and they lack the "yank your arms off" type of power that comes from modern supersport bikes but they still have handling characteristics that make them usable at a track. I don't see why they couldn't do something similar in the dirt market.
Your argument is ruined by trying to compare a ZX6 to a Ninja650. One is a highly refined racebike, the other is a parallel twin slug with terrible suspension. Try to ride them at close to the same pace and one will reward you, the other will put you on your head.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/29/2013 10:11pm
6/29/2013 10:11pm
Terryble wrote:
Some of the OEM's already do this with their street bikes. Yamaha has the R6 and then for around $4K less they have the FZ6R which...
Some of the OEM's already do this with their street bikes. Yamaha has the R6 and then for around $4K less they have the FZ6R which uses a lot of older technology to produce a bike that is capable of being ridden much faster than most of your average street riders could ride. Kawasaki has the ZX6R and the Ninja 650R, a similar drop in tech and price.

These are great bikes, they are cheaper and therefore easier to get financed on, and they lack the "yank your arms off" type of power that comes from modern supersport bikes but they still have handling characteristics that make them usable at a track. I don't see why they couldn't do something similar in the dirt market.
mcopsey wrote:
Your argument is ruined by trying to compare a ZX6 to a Ninja650. One is a highly refined racebike, the other is a parallel twin slug...
Your argument is ruined by trying to compare a ZX6 to a Ninja650. One is a highly refined racebike, the other is a parallel twin slug with terrible suspension. Try to ride them at close to the same pace and one will reward you, the other will put you on your head.
Not to mention you're discussing bikes that're produced in volumes well beyond the spectrum of anything comparable to our dirt-bike experiment that's discussed in here...
CamP
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CamP 6/29/2013 10:12pm
6/29/2013 10:12pm
GuyB wrote:
How many of you remember when Chinese pit bikes hit the market? Where are those bikes now?
That's an apples and oranges comparison and I really don't think the answer is more Chinese built crap. As Team Green mentioned, Kawasaki and Suzuki both have Thai plants, and they could build a good quality full sized air cooled 2T MX bike if that's what the brass in Japan decided to do.
burn1986
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burn1986 6/29/2013 10:24pm
6/29/2013 10:24pm
Everyone's missing the point anyway.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/29/2013 10:26pm
6/29/2013 10:26pm
GuyB wrote:
How many of you remember when Chinese pit bikes hit the market? Where are those bikes now?
CamP wrote:
That's an apples and oranges comparison and I really don't think the answer is more Chinese built crap. As Team Green mentioned, Kawasaki and Suzuki both...
That's an apples and oranges comparison and I really don't think the answer is more Chinese built crap. As Team Green mentioned, Kawasaki and Suzuki both have Thai plants, and they could build a good quality full sized air cooled 2T MX bike if that's what the brass in Japan decided to do.
The volume is arguably not there...

That's the problem.

When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA, DOT, NHTSA & USFS required hardware (& therefore legal-liability "assessment") along with its engine-electrical...& you replace that mess with the KDX hardware...

I can see the bike you guys want delivered to a US Distrubutor for waaaay less than you'd believe; but, then...there's marketing, distribution...yada, yada, yada...

Nope. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.

Now, if you believe in it THAT much...call KMT & ask for a quote on a coupl'a thousand units of what we've discussed...
CamP
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CamP 6/29/2013 10:29pm
6/29/2013 10:29pm
burn1986 wrote:
Everyone's missing the point anyway.
Yes they are. Apparently, going into debt for a hobby makes a lot of sense and is a great way to grow participation.
Toste
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Toste 6/29/2013 10:41pm
6/29/2013 10:41pm
CamP wrote:
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for...
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for 25+ year old bikes can be a problem. On top of that, there isn't an endless supply of 25+ year old race bikes, so your comparison really doesn't make sense.

If you don't understand that new bike costs affect new bike sales, and ultimately local race entry numbers, I can't really help you with an economics lesson. I talk to someone almost every day that says they would like a new bike, but at $8-9k, they are out. Personally, after 30 years of buying a new bike almost every year, I bought my last new bike when I bought a new 08 CRF450. I got it for $4500otd while Honda was blowing out their overstock. At $8k+, I'm not buying a new bike. I would like a new one, but that's stupid money for a dirt bike.
"I don't race anymore because I need a new bleeding-edge tech bike (that I can't afford)" is a cop-out. That Jerry Robin kid is proof of that.
CamP
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CamP 6/29/2013 10:44pm
6/29/2013 10:44pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 10:44pm
TeamGreen wrote:
The volume is arguably not there... That's the problem. When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA...
The volume is arguably not there...

That's the problem.

When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA, DOT, NHTSA & USFS required hardware (& therefore legal-liability "assessment") along with its engine-electrical...& you replace that mess with the KDX hardware...

I can see the bike you guys want delivered to a US Distrubutor for waaaay less than you'd believe; but, then...there's marketing, distribution...yada, yada, yada...

Nope. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.

Now, if you believe in it THAT much...call KMT & ask for a quote on a coupl'a thousand units of what we've discussed...
If you look at this from a different, non-core racer dude perspective, you may see the logic in a new entry level MX bike segment. Look at it this way.

A father of two teenage boys is interested in buying them a couple of dirt bikes after watching a motocross race on TV. They aren't a "core" mx family. In fact, they have never been to a track. Just your typical american family that saw some cool mx race on TV and it peaks dad's interest. They drive down to the local Yamaha shop and they shop for bikes. On the floor is a YZ125 for $6300, a yz250f for $7500. If dad buys two bikes he'll leave with a $12600-15000 bill, and he still doesn't have something to ride with lil Johnny and lil Billy. If there was an entry level segment such as a air cooled YZ200 priced at $4000, he could leave with mx bikes for all three, for less money than buying two of other bikes

What's newbie dad going to do?
AZ35
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AZ35 6/29/2013 10:48pm
6/29/2013 10:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 10:49pm
Words I never thought I would type.... I agree with oldfart.
CamP
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CamP 6/29/2013 10:55pm
6/29/2013 10:55pm
CamP wrote:
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for...
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for 25+ year old bikes can be a problem. On top of that, there isn't an endless supply of 25+ year old race bikes, so your comparison really doesn't make sense.

If you don't understand that new bike costs affect new bike sales, and ultimately local race entry numbers, I can't really help you with an economics lesson. I talk to someone almost every day that says they would like a new bike, but at $8-9k, they are out. Personally, after 30 years of buying a new bike almost every year, I bought my last new bike when I bought a new 08 CRF450. I got it for $4500otd while Honda was blowing out their overstock. At $8k+, I'm not buying a new bike. I would like a new one, but that's stupid money for a dirt bike.
Toste wrote:
"I don't race anymore because I [i]need[/i] a new bleeding-edge tech bike (that I can't afford)" is a cop-out. That Jerry Robin kid is proof of...
"I don't race anymore because I need a new bleeding-edge tech bike (that I can't afford)" is a cop-out. That Jerry Robin kid is proof of that.
The point is, the higher you raise the price of new mx bike, the fewer units will be sold, and ultimately ridden. Raise them to $20k and see how many people show up to your local track.
tobz
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tobz 6/29/2013 10:55pm
6/29/2013 10:55pm
RM127 wrote:
The sport needs a cheap new full size mx bike! American made with a Yamaha motor. -125 cc two stroke -4 speed transmission -pre 06 suspension...
The sport needs a cheap new full size mx bike!

American made with a Yamaha motor.

-125 cc two stroke
-4 speed transmission
-pre 06 suspension
-steel frame
-steel handle bars
-steel subframe
-steel rear sprocket
-steel foot pegs
-steel hardware
-cast levers
-cheap tires
-cheap plastics
-basic nissin brakes
-DID rims

32hp at 215 pounds is plenty to get into and enjoy this sport!
We have a saying at work for customers that come in looking for the best product thats super fast but is still cheap.

CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE.

Pick any two.


Sounds like a shit bike that'll frustrate more than it'll invite people into the sport.

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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/29/2013 11:00pm
6/29/2013 11:00pm
TeamGreen wrote:
The volume is arguably not there... That's the problem. When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA...
The volume is arguably not there...

That's the problem.

When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA, DOT, NHTSA & USFS required hardware (& therefore legal-liability "assessment") along with its engine-electrical...& you replace that mess with the KDX hardware...

I can see the bike you guys want delivered to a US Distrubutor for waaaay less than you'd believe; but, then...there's marketing, distribution...yada, yada, yada...

Nope. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.

Now, if you believe in it THAT much...call KMT & ask for a quote on a coupl'a thousand units of what we've discussed...
CamP wrote:
If you look at this from a different, non-core racer dude perspective, you may see the logic in a new entry level MX bike segment. Look...
If you look at this from a different, non-core racer dude perspective, you may see the logic in a new entry level MX bike segment. Look at it this way.

A father of two teenage boys is interested in buying them a couple of dirt bikes after watching a motocross race on TV. They aren't a "core" mx family. In fact, they have never been to a track. Just your typical american family that saw some cool mx race on TV and it peaks dad's interest. They drive down to the local Yamaha shop and they shop for bikes. On the floor is a YZ125 for $6300, a yz250f for $7500. If dad buys two bikes he'll leave with a $12600-15000 bill, and he still doesn't have something to ride with lil Johnny and lil Billy. If there was an entry level segment such as a air cooled YZ200 priced at $4000, he could leave with mx bikes for all three, for less money than buying two of other bikes

What's newbie dad going to do?
You're gonna need to sit down.

OK, are you sitting...?

Lets start with Honda. Guess what bike they built for Newbie Dad?

The CRF250L.

Hey, I'm just telling you what I've been told; but, there it is. I like the idea of my old KDX motor in the Thailand chassis; but, I'm a lone voice on that when I bring it up with the OEMs.
mcopsey
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mcopsey 6/29/2013 11:00pm
6/29/2013 11:00pm
TeamGreen wrote:
The volume is arguably not there... That's the problem. When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA...
The volume is arguably not there...

That's the problem.

When I look at the complex-expense of the KLX140 engine w/ electrical system & the KLX250S's EPA, DOT, NHTSA & USFS required hardware (& therefore legal-liability "assessment") along with its engine-electrical...& you replace that mess with the KDX hardware...

I can see the bike you guys want delivered to a US Distrubutor for waaaay less than you'd believe; but, then...there's marketing, distribution...yada, yada, yada...

Nope. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.

Now, if you believe in it THAT much...call KMT & ask for a quote on a coupl'a thousand units of what we've discussed...
CamP wrote:
If you look at this from a different, non-core racer dude perspective, you may see the logic in a new entry level MX bike segment. Look...
If you look at this from a different, non-core racer dude perspective, you may see the logic in a new entry level MX bike segment. Look at it this way.

A father of two teenage boys is interested in buying them a couple of dirt bikes after watching a motocross race on TV. They aren't a "core" mx family. In fact, they have never been to a track. Just your typical american family that saw some cool mx race on TV and it peaks dad's interest. They drive down to the local Yamaha shop and they shop for bikes. On the floor is a YZ125 for $6300, a yz250f for $7500. If dad buys two bikes he'll leave with a $12600-15000 bill, and he still doesn't have something to ride with lil Johnny and lil Billy. If there was an entry level segment such as a air cooled YZ200 priced at $4000, he could leave with mx bikes for all three, for less money than buying two of other bikes

What's newbie dad going to do?
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly?


I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes that are easy to ride and cheap but they aren't in the wheelhouse. Do they have to be two strokes to make you guys happy?
RM127
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RM127 6/29/2013 11:11pm
6/29/2013 11:11pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 11:11pm
Don't compare this to the bikes made in china. A Chinese 450 is piece of shit made to look like a modern bike at $3500 new!

I am talking about older tech but a quality build.
Toste
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Toste 6/29/2013 11:14pm
6/29/2013 11:14pm
CamP wrote:
The point is, the higher you raise the price of new mx bike, the fewer units will be sold, and ultimately ridden. Raise them to $20k...
The point is, the higher you raise the price of new mx bike, the fewer units will be sold, and ultimately ridden. Raise them to $20k and see how many people show up to your local track.
Like a growing number of people, I don't have a local track. That's what I perceive as the biggest threat to the future of motocross.
RM127
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RM127 6/29/2013 11:16pm
6/29/2013 11:16pm
mcopsey wrote:
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly? I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes...
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly?


I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes that are easy to ride and cheap but they aren't in the wheelhouse. Do they have to be two strokes to make you guys happy?
Yes I do prefer a 125 two stroke, but the main problem with those bikes are they are not full size bikes and weigh a ton.
RM127
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RM127 6/29/2013 11:22pm
6/29/2013 11:22pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 11:22pm
Toste wrote:
Like a growing number of people, I don't have a local track. That's what I perceive as the biggest threat to the future of motocross.
Its a domino effect.

Why are there no local tracks because people don't have the money to buy a bike.

Why are bikes selling less because there are less places to ride at.

Its a never ending cycle.
mcopsey
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mcopsey 6/29/2013 11:25pm
6/29/2013 11:25pm
mcopsey wrote:
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly? I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes...
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly?


I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes that are easy to ride and cheap but they aren't in the wheelhouse. Do they have to be two strokes to make you guys happy?
RM127 wrote:
Yes I do prefer a 125 two stroke, but the main problem with those bikes are they are not full size bikes and weigh a ton.
A TTR125 weighs less than a YZ125 and is much easier for this supposed beginner to ride. Try again
JB 19
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JB 19 6/29/2013 11:29pm
6/29/2013 11:29pm
Cobra 175? Could be their "in" in the big bike market.

The dirt bike world should take a page from the mountain bike world. In dirt bike its either full race CRF 250 or full goon crf 230. How about full "ride with your buddies on saturday practice" CR 125 from 1995.
RM127
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RM127 6/29/2013 11:42pm
6/29/2013 11:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2013 11:43pm
mcopsey wrote:
A TTR125 weighs less than a YZ125 and is much easier for this supposed beginner to ride. Try again
TTR125 is 198 lbs and is not a "full size mx bike".

I started this thread for about a:

-Full size dirt bike
-MX not trail
-125 two stroke not four stroke
-about 32 hp
-less than 215lbs
-pre 06 full travel suspension
-$4000 msrp

The TTR125 is in a whole different category......
Shawn142
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Shawn142 6/30/2013 4:47am
6/30/2013 4:47am
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the infrastructure to support it? It's not like cheap dirt bikes aren't out there, anyone wanting one only needs around $2,000.

What is needed more than anything is a push at the local level to get people with these bikes to the races. They need their own classes, series, something to make guys who buy these bikes show up and spend money. I would only buy a 125 to race a vintage series.. make me take it to a normal race by giving me a class where I'm not at a monstrous disadvantage.
gpnewhouse 6/30/2013 5:19am
6/30/2013 5:19am
Don't see why it has to be dummed down so much. The RM125 was for sale at £3800 in 2008 and materials costs haven't increased too significantly since then.

Besides why the hell would anyone want an aircooled POS if they're intending on racing, might aswell get a ttr125.
bent valves
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bent valves 6/30/2013 7:36am
6/30/2013 7:36am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2013 7:41am
Toste wrote:
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think...
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think people sometimes underestimate the level of ego/vanity that exists in this sport.

Besides that, of all the things that are driving people away from MX, I would say that new bike costs are pretty far down the list.
CamP wrote:
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for...
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for 25+ year old bikes can be a problem. On top of that, there isn't an endless supply of 25+ year old race bikes, so your comparison really doesn't make sense.

If you don't understand that new bike costs affect new bike sales, and ultimately local race entry numbers, I can't really help you with an economics lesson. I talk to someone almost every day that says they would like a new bike, but at $8-9k, they are out. Personally, after 30 years of buying a new bike almost every year, I bought my last new bike when I bought a new 08 CRF450. I got it for $4500otd while Honda was blowing out their overstock. At $8k+, I'm not buying a new bike. I would like a new one, but that's stupid money for a dirt bike.
Manufacturers give no incentive to buy a new bike. The new motocross bikes in CA are all red sticker so they can't be trail ridden year around which is BS. I thought the whole point of going to four strokes was to be more "green". I guess not. Also, I've gone to the shop enough to know you pay sticker price every time. When was the last time you heard of a company giving discounts or price breaks? Usually, it's the dealer making the cuts not the manufacturers. Recently, Husky was giving some good deals but I also heard Husky was going out of business. Sometimes the manufactures give monies depending on how you place in a series but that a niche few full time racers not the general population.

I've done the vintage thing too but in CA it's dead because the same exact riders show up on the same bikes at the same tracks and it's pretty darn boring after a few times. I don't think it's so much to do with bikes and parts but more the entire process of restoring them. Every bike needs to rebuilt. Some guys just don't have the mechanical abilities, time, tools or shop.If they sent it out to be restored they usually get price gouged and realize they should have just bought a new bike to begin with. And after spending all that time rebuilding the bike they rather it sit in the garage and collect dust than destroy it.

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