PED blood doping thread lasted two hours

WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 6/7/2013 8:34pm
6/7/2013 8:34pm
FlaNard wrote:
That is INSANE and very sad at the same time.
GuyB wrote:
Right. If it's true.
englishman wrote:
The rider that is doing that needs to fire his Doctors ass because the guy clearly hasn't got a fucking clue. The Eastern Europeans figured out...
The rider that is doing that needs to fire his Doctors ass because the guy clearly hasn't got a fucking clue. The Eastern Europeans figured out the blood thinner ratio almost 2 decades ago so guys didn't have to do that shit. Cyclist were dying of heart attacks left, right & center until they got that worked out.

His heart rate is dropping as a result of his blood getting too thick because his bonehead Dr is shooting him full of EPO and not doing a hematocrit test to check percentages.

Not saying anything against you Jeff, but that tale is so beyond ludicrous in this day and age I'd have to say it's a BS rumor.

BTW: EPO is so easy to get hold of it's stupid, just ask any decent local racing cyclist they'll know who's selling, when I was racing there was a guy in LA to go to , a guy in Colorado, one in Minnesota and another in TJ - probably all still doing it.
You can order EPO on the Internet, no doctor prescription required. Give em a credit card number and it's on the way to your house. That's not to say it is safe to use at very high concentrations, but you don't NEED high concentrations to boost the bloods oxygen transport. And there are also perfectly legal supplements that don't contain a single banned substance that will stimulate your body's natural EPO production.

I would be shocked if quite a few pros weren't using that kind of supplement. But I frankly don't care. As long as dosages are kept to a low level, it's not really dangerous for most people. HGH and anabolic steroids worry me a lot more, but I would be surprised if very many guys used that. Maybe some of the ones with the high-powered cycling trainers might. They don't do it to bulk up, they do it to rebuild their metabolic functions faster after very strenuous workouts, but that's not something a rider can regulate effectively without a trainer and doctor.
Adam43
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Adam43 6/7/2013 8:40pm
6/7/2013 8:40pm
Holy cow, guys I just had a thought.

These trainers might by providing something other than advice on how to practice, eat and bicycle!
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 6/7/2013 8:44pm
6/7/2013 8:44pm
Adam43 wrote:
Holy cow, guys I just had a thought.

These trainers might by providing something other than advice on how to practice, eat and bicycle!
Yeah. I've always thought it was hilarious that Aldon Baker would advise Ricky Varmichael and James Stewart about how to approach the sport. I'm surprised neither of those guys told him to STFU and get the hell out of the hauler. RC and Stewart have forgotten more about motocross than Baker ever knew.
Nighttrain
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Nighttrain 6/7/2013 9:02pm
6/7/2013 9:02pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2013 9:04pm
It should be mentioned that there's a long list of deaths and near deaths caused by PEDS even under the quidance of trainers and bad doctors. And there are a lot of fake drugs offered online. Oxygen vector drugs (EPO) cause thickening of your blood from the increase in the red blood cell count. Many young pro cyclists who self-dosed died in the early adoption stages due to cardiac arrests. Blood doping requires proper, and difficult, storage or serious illness/death happens after infusion (Ricardo Ricco, Tyler Hamilton). HGH causes undetected cancer cells to more rapidly spread (possibly L Armstrong) thus severely lowering the survivability timeline. It's crazy talk to suggest anyone go on a program that isn't closely supervised by a medical professional. No doubt the performance payoff is huge but the short term and long term consequences are significant. Unfortunately, I've seen them up close and way too often.

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WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 6/7/2013 9:21pm
6/7/2013 9:21pm
Nighttrain wrote:
It should be mentioned that there's a long list of deaths and near deaths caused by PEDS even under the quidance of trainers and bad doctors...
It should be mentioned that there's a long list of deaths and near deaths caused by PEDS even under the quidance of trainers and bad doctors. And there are a lot of fake drugs offered online. Oxygen vector drugs (EPO) cause thickening of your blood from the increase in the red blood cell count. Many young pro cyclists who self-dosed died in the early adoption stages due to cardiac arrests. Blood doping requires proper, and difficult, storage or serious illness/death happens after infusion (Ricardo Ricco, Tyler Hamilton). HGH causes undetected cancer cells to more rapidly spread (possibly L Armstrong) thus severely lowering the survivability timeline. It's crazy talk to suggest anyone go on a program that isn't closely supervised by a medical professional. No doubt the performance payoff is huge but the short term and long term consequences are significant. Unfortunately, I've seen them up close and way too often.
All true. Many EPO users take aspirin as a blood thinning agent
colonel
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colonel 6/7/2013 11:33pm
6/7/2013 11:33pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
All true. Many EPO users take aspirin as a blood thinning agent
That is a myth and not true atall
colonel
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colonel 6/7/2013 11:41pm
6/7/2013 11:41pm
With the fear of being attacked here and not blowing smoke up my own ass but coming from someone who knows a lot more personally about this subject than what is what is said on this thread, the info here is very off and pretty far from factual proof about PED and Blood doping.

Riders will not blood dope or transfuse their own blood. Cost for this procedure and a proper care taken to store and separate the blood will not readily available to them to name 2 small issues. Never mind treating that blood and the benefits for maybe 150cc of extra blood twice a month is beneficial for performance the cost will outweigh the result.

They will how ever use EPO and HGH, 2 very simple and effective products to help improve their overall performance and conditioning by atleast 10%. Both are basically undetectable when done correctly and to get that info its not hard.

If any of you know much about sport performance at Elite level 10% improvement is huge for any athlete wether its training load or recovery.

It is happening and it also wont stop unfortunately.
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kongols 6/8/2013 1:21am
6/8/2013 1:21am
Thanks Chad.
chrisbuehler
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chrisbuehler 6/8/2013 2:36am
6/8/2013 2:36am
One of the side affects of Hgh is carpel tunnel syndrome, albeit it temporary until its usage is discontinued . This isn't bro-science, it's a fact. Anyone know what happens when you ride moto with CTS? Your hands go numb after 2 laps from the vibration of the motorcycle and its literally impossible to hold on. I could def see them using anabolics though. Tons of benefits and contrary to allot of crap in this thread, they are relatively safe.
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FroDiddy 6/8/2013 3:55am
6/8/2013 3:55am
Jeff alessi wrote:
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing other riders of using drugs* First off mike Alessi doesn't go on the Internet, it was me that said...
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing other riders of using drugs*

First off mike Alessi doesn't go on the Internet, it was me that said the top riders have the funds to acquire the things that make them never get tired. So when your going to try and make a statement try and get one thing right.

The only thing I have left to say is this, if a select few riders are the only riders with safe guards to do what they want and not worry about being penalized for their actions then what makes their accomplishments worthy. We all suffer, they benefit apmost 90% of everything this sport has to give and the worst part is racing gets boring. I'm not going to point fingers but were at the point where amateurs are having to decide at a young age if they want to win or not, and usually this is the direction they take to get there. When you hear that one rider employs a doctor to watch him sleep at night incase his heart stops beating because his heart rate is dropping below 30 bps it becomes unfair to him to even have to take it to that level to win. That's all.
You are absolutely right, it was not Mike. My apologies.
TripleDigit 6/8/2013 4:21am
6/8/2013 4:21am
The Rock wrote:
You can look at my OP in the is it cool thread in the Dumbgeon for what my buddy said if you are interested. Personally I...
You can look at my OP in the is it cool thread in the Dumbgeon for what my buddy said if you are interested.

Personally I got beat up enough earlier for my sound stance that I'm not willing to be the whipping post on this subject. Sooner or later this topic hopefully will be addressed with proper testing procedures. Until then at least I can't be accused of being an ostrich.
I'm afraid there are a lot that fall into the ostrich catagory,at the end of the day there's a lot of talk floating around about the subject,someday they will hopefully bring in blood tests and put the issue to rest,if certain substances are banned there's a responsiblity to enforce it afterall and anyone cheating needs to be exposed and dealt with accordingly
colonel
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colonel 6/8/2013 9:18am
6/8/2013 9:18am
chrisbuehler wrote:
One of the side affects of Hgh is carpel tunnel syndrome, albeit it temporary until its usage is discontinued . This isn't bro-science, it's a fact...
One of the side affects of Hgh is carpel tunnel syndrome, albeit it temporary until its usage is discontinued . This isn't bro-science, it's a fact. Anyone know what happens when you ride moto with CTS? Your hands go numb after 2 laps from the vibration of the motorcycle and its literally impossible to hold on. I could def see them using anabolics though. Tons of benefits and contrary to allot of crap in this thread, they are relatively safe.
No HGH does not cause or contribute to CTS. Not sure where you got that info from.
Rocket88
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Rocket88 6/8/2013 9:31am
6/8/2013 9:31am
chrisbuehler wrote:
One of the side affects of Hgh is carpel tunnel syndrome, albeit it temporary until its usage is discontinued . This isn't bro-science, it's a fact...
One of the side affects of Hgh is carpel tunnel syndrome, albeit it temporary until its usage is discontinued . This isn't bro-science, it's a fact. Anyone know what happens when you ride moto with CTS? Your hands go numb after 2 laps from the vibration of the motorcycle and its literally impossible to hold on. I could def see them using anabolics though. Tons of benefits and contrary to allot of crap in this thread, they are relatively safe.
colonel wrote:
No HGH does not cause or contribute to CTS. Not sure where you got that info from.
The internet! Duh!
The Rock
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The Rock 6/9/2013 12:23pm
6/9/2013 12:23pm
TripleDigit wrote:
I'm afraid there are a lot that fall into the ostrich catagory,at the end of the day there's a lot of talk floating around about the...
I'm afraid there are a lot that fall into the ostrich catagory,at the end of the day there's a lot of talk floating around about the subject,someday they will hopefully bring in blood tests and put the issue to rest,if certain substances are banned there's a responsiblity to enforce it afterall and anyone cheating needs to be exposed and dealt with accordingly
In a perfect world it would be announced this summer that random PED testing will take place in 2014. This would give those using time to change up their programs and get off that stuff.

If you get caught there should be harsh penalties after 1/1/14. Be nice if the up and comers would no longer have to contemplate whether to use PEDs.
Choppy
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Choppy 6/9/2013 12:26pm
6/9/2013 12:26pm
TripleDigit wrote:
I'm afraid there are a lot that fall into the ostrich catagory,at the end of the day there's a lot of talk floating around about the...
I'm afraid there are a lot that fall into the ostrich catagory,at the end of the day there's a lot of talk floating around about the subject,someday they will hopefully bring in blood tests and put the issue to rest,if certain substances are banned there's a responsiblity to enforce it afterall and anyone cheating needs to be exposed and dealt with accordingly
The Rock wrote:
In a perfect world it would be announced this summer that random PED testing will take place in 2014. This would give those using time to...
In a perfect world it would be announced this summer that random PED testing will take place in 2014. This would give those using time to change up their programs and get off that stuff.

If you get caught there should be harsh penalties after 1/1/14. Be nice if the up and comers would no longer have to contemplate whether to use PEDs.
They do that in other sports and players still have to contemplate if they should....why wouldn't the same still happen in MX?
WeiserGuy
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WeiserGuy 6/9/2013 1:21pm
6/9/2013 1:21pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2013 1:35pm
Even if they implemented blood testing the results would look the same. Regardless of who's doing what you still have to be willing to put the hard work in and nothing can make someone twist the throttle any harder. I always thought it was stupid to police guys that risk their life every time they get on a bike. When there is $$$ involved people will look to gain an edge anywhere they can. Cool Whistling

I also call bullshit on the so called "heard" information that a rider employs a doctor to monitor his BPM while he's sleeping. Also call BS on the Rock's general concern for the riders health and his LOVE for the sport. This sport doesn't need a congressional investigation to destroy it,, not big enough to survive something like that.. A lot of folks in this industry has never had a job outside of it and it would be detrimental to their livelihood. Stop and think of the big picture before pointing fingers about not being fair, because life isn't fair.
Lucifa.
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Lucifa. 6/9/2013 4:31pm
6/9/2013 4:31pm
motogrady wrote:
I thought so. Silence. Go out on the street, accuse your neighbor of child abuse or murder, or theft or whatever, without proof, see what happens...
I thought so.

Silence.

Go out on the street, accuse your neighbor of child abuse or murder, or theft or whatever, without proof,
see what happens.

But it's cool to come in here and taint the sport with baseless accusations.
Shut up and go bury your head in the sand.
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mototrader 6/9/2013 4:53pm
6/9/2013 4:53pm
alot of past champions would also have asterisks next to their name as well Wink

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mx5471
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mx5471 6/9/2013 5:42pm
6/9/2013 5:42pm
PED is a general term. Performance enhancing drug. There are so many of them that you would have to be a doctor of Pharmacology to understand what they are and what they do. They are prevalent in every major sport, even down to the high school level. To think they don't exist in MX and SX, is naive. People sacrifice their finances, their children's education, and future, and everything else they have if they think their child is a contender. Why not this? There is something out there for any one , in any sport. I would bet money that the top people are, or have used something in the off season. They can afford the monitoring of it. The rest can't. It is happening, but no one cares.
Choppy
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Choppy 6/9/2013 5:43pm
6/9/2013 5:43pm
Are you not worried about the racers safety in the GP's Rock?
motogrady
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motogrady 6/9/2013 7:23pm
6/9/2013 7:23pm
Choppy wrote:
Are you not worried about the racers safety in the GP's Rock?
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
The Rock
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The Rock 6/9/2013 8:25pm
6/9/2013 8:25pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2013 8:39pm
Choppy wrote:
Are you not worried about the racers safety in the GP's Rock?
Yes I am but I don't have the knowledge base across the pond that I do for stateside issues.

EDIT this topic to me is more about having a level playing field than it is rider safety.
The Rock
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The Rock 6/9/2013 9:13pm
6/9/2013 9:13pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2013 10:53pm
Choppy wrote:
Are you not worried about the racers safety in the GP's Rock?
motogrady wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Hey motogrady......are you just interested in making this about me?

Do appreciate your post though as it reminded me that I have been waiting for you to repsond to:

BTW motogrady I am not aware of any sanctioning bodies in West Virginia for SX/MX RE: powers that be. Can you tell us who is this biggest and best testing organization and how often they test outdoor competitors for anything other than recreational drugs.
Choppy
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Choppy 6/9/2013 9:16pm
6/9/2013 9:16pm
Choppy wrote:
Are you not worried about the racers safety in the GP's Rock?
The Rock wrote:
Yes I am but I don't have the knowledge base across the pond that I do for stateside issues. EDIT this topic to me is more...
Yes I am but I don't have the knowledge base across the pond that I do for stateside issues.

EDIT this topic to me is more about having a level playing field than it is rider safety.
You've yet to give any said "knowledge" on what riders are....
Choppy
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Choppy 6/9/2013 9:30pm
6/9/2013 9:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2013 9:31pm
The defintion of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result.

For the record, and for future use, that's not the definition of insanity. Insanity is a legal term. That "definition" came from a novel, and unfortunately people keep repeating it.
JB 19
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JB 19 6/9/2013 9:34pm
6/9/2013 9:34pm
I don't know enough about this stuff to know how long certain substances are detectable by the best tests......but one problem I have always seen with testing is that even on the low level I have trained you reach certain barriers that become difficult to break through. Once you break through to the next level it is fairly easy to maintain and even get back to.

For me running was something that made me stronger at mountain biking. It enabled me to reach the next small level. Lets say you have a guy with a phantom injury.....we will say maybe epstein bar. This time may allow him to take a series off, begin this new training program with some "help" and go wide open for four months......then spend the next two off the "help" and be ready for the next series and possibly pass any doping test with flying colors all while maintaining this new level of fitness.
So what would the test even accomplish if it was during the racing season?

Or have I lost my mind?
Choppy
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Choppy 6/9/2013 9:46pm
6/9/2013 9:46pm
JB 19 wrote:
I don't know enough about this stuff to know how long certain substances are detectable by the best tests......but one problem I have always seen with...
I don't know enough about this stuff to know how long certain substances are detectable by the best tests......but one problem I have always seen with testing is that even on the low level I have trained you reach certain barriers that become difficult to break through. Once you break through to the next level it is fairly easy to maintain and even get back to.

For me running was something that made me stronger at mountain biking. It enabled me to reach the next small level. Lets say you have a guy with a phantom injury.....we will say maybe epstein bar. This time may allow him to take a series off, begin this new training program with some "help" and go wide open for four months......then spend the next two off the "help" and be ready for the next series and possibly pass any doping test with flying colors all while maintaining this new level of fitness.
So what would the test even accomplish if it was during the racing season?

Or have I lost my mind?
It wouldn't accomplish anything.
Like NFL, NBA, NHL, college and even high school athletes only the dumb would get caught.

All you need to pass the drug tests of today is a calander.

Even with Olympic testing you can accidentally give them the wrong place you'll be and "miss" two tests before they ever do anything to you. That gives you enough time to get "clean".
BobbyM
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BobbyM 6/9/2013 9:52pm
6/9/2013 9:52pm
what somebody should do is on the down-low pick a rider that will agree to anything "medicinal" to increase his chance of actually winning. say a 10-15 place rider then document and measure. see if it works or not. publish it and sell it. could make it a reality show too.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/9/2013 10:19pm
6/9/2013 10:19pm
So, who are the riders on PEDs?
The Rock
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The Rock 6/9/2013 10:50pm
6/9/2013 10:50pm
Choppy wrote:
You've yet to give any said "knowledge" on what riders are....
I don't have any proof that anyone is using them so I can't provide a name but I wouldn't provide it if I had it. I didn't start the other thread or this one to throw a rider under the bus but was looking an answer to why isn't there testing.

It was a bonus to get all these different perspectives on the subject.

Choppy-Wouldn't random testing of podium finishers be the way to defeat guys beating the test with a calendar?

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