PED blood doping thread lasted two hours

motogrady
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6/7/2013 5:15am
jeffro503 wrote:
It's a touchy subject, Not many journalists would try to cross any of those lines and get themselves black balled from the riders and teams. It...
It's a touchy subject, Not many journalists would try to cross any of those lines and get themselves black balled from the riders and teams. It might not seem like it.....but bringing out the truth about everything ( if you could ) could ruin people career's and overall family life. As some people would lose their jobs , be put on a black list.....basically completely ruin themselves.

Nope....we are going to have to leave it all up to speculation.

We aren't ever going to find out who was doing what and when they were doing it.

It's something you take to the grave.
The Rock wrote:
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing? Will accepting these substances...
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing?
Will accepting these substances as part of our MX culture affect how our sport is viewed by other Motorsports?

For the record not looking to ruin careers and family lives only initiating dialogue on this subject.

kongols-It is all good. Where did you live in the US and what do you miss if anything about the US?
Is it a positive or negative image for us?

I really don't think the masses give a shit.
Not until guys like you constantly bring it up.

Which you seem to like to do.
Almost like you're infatuated and pissed with being an outsider to something,
and have an agenda to hurt it with your, ah, constructive criticism.

Is there not drug testing already in place for Pro MX/SX here in the US or not?
FroDiddy
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6/7/2013 5:20am
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing riders of doping. Strangely enough, it was swept under the rug like he never said it.

It's not a problem in the sport until one of the top guys is caught using.
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 5:26am
ando wrote:
Why the hell would you want to use EPO (or anything else for that matter) for a non-professional event?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Because it sucks to be 58 years old. You'll see.
yak651 wrote:
Who are you trying to impress at 58 years old? As long as you are running times that meet your goals, I agree with the above...
Who are you trying to impress at 58 years old? As long as you are running times that meet your goals, I agree with the above poster. So because you are old it would make you feel better about your results if you cheated?
I'm not "cheating". I'm not trying to beat anyone. For 40 years, I ran between 7:30 and 8 minutes a mile. That's not fast or even competitive with my age group back in those days. But that was my natural biomechanical pace - I could get into that zone and run indefinitely. Over the last 5 years, my natural EPO and Testosterone production has decreased to the point where I'm more like 9:00 to 9:30. At that pace, I'm not biomechanically efficient. It's a struggle now. I'm not not trying to win a race, I'm trying to do my best and to run in a smooth, efficient manner. To win my age group these days, I'd have to run a 3:15 or so marathon. I couldn't even do that when I was 25 and I couldn't do it today no matter what I did or how I trained. You're only "cheating" if you're trying to gain an unfair advantage against a competitor - I'm not doing that. I want to run fast enough to be able to run with my son just a few more times, and I want to run comfortably. That's all.
motogrady
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6/7/2013 5:30am
FroDiddy wrote:
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing riders of doping. Strangely enough, it was swept under the rug like he never said it. It's not a...
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing riders of doping. Strangely enough, it was swept under the rug like he never said it.

It's not a problem in the sport until one of the top guys is caught using.
So Mike Alessi says it's so, it's so?

The Shop

motogrady
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6/7/2013 5:31am
Anyone care to answer the question, do they test for dope or not?
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 5:40am
jeffro503 wrote:
It's a touchy subject, Not many journalists would try to cross any of those lines and get themselves black balled from the riders and teams. It...
It's a touchy subject, Not many journalists would try to cross any of those lines and get themselves black balled from the riders and teams. It might not seem like it.....but bringing out the truth about everything ( if you could ) could ruin people career's and overall family life. As some people would lose their jobs , be put on a black list.....basically completely ruin themselves.

Nope....we are going to have to leave it all up to speculation.

We aren't ever going to find out who was doing what and when they were doing it.

It's something you take to the grave.
The Rock wrote:
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing? Will accepting these substances...
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing?
Will accepting these substances as part of our MX culture affect how our sport is viewed by other Motorsports?

For the record not looking to ruin careers and family lives only initiating dialogue on this subject.

kongols-It is all good. Where did you live in the US and what do you miss if anything about the US?
IMO, you have to distinguish between PEDs and blood doping. When you use PEDs, you're injecting a foreign substance (or a synthetic version of a natural one). But blood doping is just the process of removing some of the riders own blood in the off season, centrifuging the red blood cells that carry oxygen, and reinjecting them prior to an event. It's the rider's own blood and there's nothing synthetic about it. Now, I don't think blood doping is all that applicable to motocross because the performance boost only lasts a couple of weeks. To really contend for a title, you have to perform for a lot longer than that. Maybe a rider could do it for really decisive races, and frankly I've suspected they did and I could cite specific races where I suspect that was done, but it's not going to put you into title contention. It just might put you over the top. And I'd bet money that virtually ALL riders have access to that technique fir those ultra crucial races.
motogrady
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6/7/2013 5:43am
I thought so.

Silence.

Go out on the street, accuse your neighbor of child abuse or murder, or theft or whatever, without proof,
see what happens.

But it's cool to come in here and taint the sport with baseless accusations.
motomike137
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6/7/2013 5:48am
I am trying to figure out if in this day and age I care about this subject or not. I wonder if the the techniques and drugs being used now are a long term health danger or not and if not why not allow it. I am not even at the "I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night" level of knowing much about this stuff but I get the feeling that there have been a lot of advances and what athletes use these days in many cases is no where near as bad for them as the steroids/peds that were once prevelant. I would love to see a new enlightened mind set regarding this subject that would let it out into the open and potentially make certain things accepted practice maybe.
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 6:07am
motogrady wrote:
I thought so. Silence. Go out on the street, accuse your neighbor of child abuse or murder, or theft or whatever, without proof, see what happens...
I thought so.

Silence.

Go out on the street, accuse your neighbor of child abuse or murder, or theft or whatever, without proof,
see what happens.

But it's cool to come in here and taint the sport with baseless accusations.
Leave all the emotional baggage behind, pal. These are non-traditional training techniques and they're no big deal. It's not going to make an average rider into a national champoion. For years, people took all kinds of supplements like vitamins, herbs, bee pollen, Ganga root, you name it. And serious PED use isn't even helpful for motocross. Small amounts of EPO helps blood transport oxygen a little more efficiently; blood doping will help for a specific race; very limited use of HGH might help recovery between very hard workouts. But this isn't like those East German women runners who started growing tiny penises where their clitoris was supposed to be. Nobody in motocross is turning themselves into a chemical experiment.

I think most high level riders use small amounts of supplements. I frankly don't care unless they're using so much it undermines their future health. The thing I care about is the kid getting some kind of crap from a gym rat, not knowing what the hell it is, using it without any advice by someone who's interested in his welfare, and wrecking his metabolic functions.
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 6:10am
motogrady wrote:
Anyone care to answer the question, do they test for dope or not?
Yes, they test. No, the tests won't catch anyone if they have a trainer who knows anything about it.
kongols
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6/7/2013 6:16am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2013 6:16am
motogrady wrote:
Anyone care to answer the question, do they test for dope or not?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Yes, they test. No, the tests won't catch anyone if they have a trainer who knows anything about it.
They test urine. They are not going to catch anyone. You have to be dumb as a rock to fail the test.
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 6:18am
motogrady wrote:
Anyone care to answer the question, do they test for dope or not?
WhKnuckle wrote:
Yes, they test. No, the tests won't catch anyone if they have a trainer who knows anything about it.
kongols wrote:
They test urine. They are not going to catch anyone. You have to be dumb as a rock to fail the test.
Exactly. No top rider who has a cycling trainer is ever going to fail a test. Maybe some privateer might because he can't afford to pay sor good advise.
Fearo
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6/7/2013 6:18am
Motogrady, what are you trying to say?

They do piss tests... In the same way they did piss tests in the 1960s and 70s Tour de France races. So clearly nobody is doping LOL, please.

Besides, don't fool yourself, the US doping program is lightyears ahead of any testing. Lance Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 TDF were found to be positive in 2005. It took 6 freaking years develop a testing method that could find something.


Imagine where doping technology is at in 2013...
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 6:38am
Fearo wrote:
Motogrady, what are you trying to say? They do piss tests... In the same way they did piss tests in the 1960s and 70s Tour de...
Motogrady, what are you trying to say?

They do piss tests... In the same way they did piss tests in the 1960s and 70s Tour de France races. So clearly nobody is doping LOL, please.

Besides, don't fool yourself, the US doping program is lightyears ahead of any testing. Lance Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 TDF were found to be positive in 2005. It took 6 freaking years develop a testing method that could find something.


Imagine where doping technology is at in 2013...
Until they start testing blood and hair samples, they're really not going to clean anything up. Urine goes through a natural purification process. And they never got provable positives from Lance Armstrong - when they did repeat tests of the same samples, they came back clean.

Sometimes I wonder if motocross is a good sport for education instead of legislation. Sometimes I think the AMA could do more good by requiring trainers to document the amount of stuff the rider is taking and submitting to blood tests to ensure that the documentation is accurate; and allowing a free flow of information to riders on lower levels so they're not pumping insane amounts of HGH and anabolic steriods that really WILL kill someone. I don't know - maybe that won't work - but motocross is NOT a sport where lethal doses of bulk-up, dangerous drugs will do anything but kill riders. Educate those guys. Heck, there are EPO stimulants that are completely legal because they're herb-based and contain no banned substances at all - why can't riders take that?
JeepnMike
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6/7/2013 6:52am
WhKnuckle wrote:
I'm not "cheating". I'm not trying to beat anyone. For 40 years, I ran between 7:30 and 8 minutes a mile. That's not fast or even...
I'm not "cheating". I'm not trying to beat anyone. For 40 years, I ran between 7:30 and 8 minutes a mile. That's not fast or even competitive with my age group back in those days. But that was my natural biomechanical pace - I could get into that zone and run indefinitely. Over the last 5 years, my natural EPO and Testosterone production has decreased to the point where I'm more like 9:00 to 9:30. At that pace, I'm not biomechanically efficient. It's a struggle now. I'm not not trying to win a race, I'm trying to do my best and to run in a smooth, efficient manner. To win my age group these days, I'd have to run a 3:15 or so marathon. I couldn't even do that when I was 25 and I couldn't do it today no matter what I did or how I trained. You're only "cheating" if you're trying to gain an unfair advantage against a competitor - I'm not doing that. I want to run fast enough to be able to run with my son just a few more times, and I want to run comfortably. That's all.
Thank god my parents are oblivious to PEDs. At their age of 60, I can't get through a single converstaion without hearing something about them winning their age group at marathons. I have a feeling you may be as obsessed with running as they are. I hope PEDs aren't discussed lightly on RunnersWorld.com.

BTW WhKnuckle, you still talk like a kid, don't beat yourself up about your age Smile
Outsider
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6/7/2013 6:56am
Fearo wrote:
Our sport is in a weird place when it comes to the probability of PED use. It's: a) Extremely physically demanding b) Spots on a race...
Our sport is in a weird place when it comes to the probability of PED use.

It's:
a) Extremely physically demanding
b) Spots on a race team are very limited
c) The testing being done is from the stone age
d) The sport is so small that there's no pressure from the public or anything to gain for the media if they tried to find out what was going on, other than the self destruction of the sport

The combination of those 4 factors makes the likelihood of extensive PED use very high I must say. What's funny is that cycling for instance, the mother of all PED infected sports actually has much less of a "pressure to win" factor than motocross. With extreme dedication and some talent you can have a clean pro cycling career as a 'helper', because there are lots of teams and some of them have upwards of 30 riders. With motocross on the other hand, you're basically either top 20 material or you're not getting anything.

And for those of you that say motocross is a talent-driven sport.. To some extent, yeah, sure it is. Talent will always float to the top, but there's soooo much more than just talent. Work ethic, ability to control nerves, injuries, ability to recover... That's why I think that IF PED's would be used in MX, it wouldn't be stuff that "would make you go faster" but primarily stuff to control nerves and slow the heart rate (beta blockers) and stuff to increase the speed of recovery.
Beta blockers?

Blood pressure medication is a PED now?

LMAO
motogrady
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6/7/2013 6:57am
Hey, is the agency that tests here not one of the most respected and through on the planet earth?

I'm sorry if the bad guys are a step ahead, that doesn't give anyone free hand to make blanket accusations like what we see here, without backing it up.
Everybody knows, the bad guys will always be ahead, so you guys will always bitch.
For what?

And yes , I know what the differences are, what does what.
It's been gone over a thousand times.

And the Lance thing, going back to another era, when all of them we're juicing, I don't agree with that either.
Selective prosecution from sore losers.


Hey guys, I gotta check out till this evening, life calls.

I just feel the OP has an agenda with American MX,
that there is drug testing, from the biggest and most respectable
company out there, and his prim and proper way of discussing things
are merely a guise to discredit the powers that be here in the US.

And because I live in West Virginia has nothing to do with it,
it has to do with the sport. flame on bros.
wydopen
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6/7/2013 7:00am
post by 'had2comment' in 3...2....1....
Outsider
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6/7/2013 7:04am
I'd really like the OP to provide some specifics of what is used and proof of it instead of what he "heard".
FroDiddy
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6/7/2013 7:17am
FroDiddy wrote:
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing riders of doping. Strangely enough, it was swept under the rug like he never said it. It's not a...
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing riders of doping. Strangely enough, it was swept under the rug like he never said it.

It's not a problem in the sport until one of the top guys is caught using.
motogrady wrote:
So Mike Alessi says it's so, it's so?
Is that what I said? A rider makes an accusation like that and there's no follow up, not even a discussion. Doesn't strike you as strange?

Meh, I can tell you're one of those who doesn't care either way. I understand because I don't care if NFL players use PEDs.
Xeno
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6/7/2013 7:24am
If these guys are on the juice, why don't they take a victory lap and throw some huge whips for the crowd? Remember those days?
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 7:34am
motogrady wrote:
Hey, is the agency that tests here not one of the most respected and through on the planet earth? I'm sorry if the bad guys are...
Hey, is the agency that tests here not one of the most respected and through on the planet earth?

I'm sorry if the bad guys are a step ahead, that doesn't give anyone free hand to make blanket accusations like what we see here, without backing it up.
Everybody knows, the bad guys will always be ahead, so you guys will always bitch.
For what?

And yes , I know what the differences are, what does what.
It's been gone over a thousand times.

And the Lance thing, going back to another era, when all of them we're juicing, I don't agree with that either.
Selective prosecution from sore losers.


Hey guys, I gotta check out till this evening, life calls.

I just feel the OP has an agenda with American MX,
that there is drug testing, from the biggest and most respectable
company out there, and his prim and proper way of discussing things
are merely a guise to discredit the powers that be here in the US.

And because I live in West Virginia has nothing to do with it,
it has to do with the sport. flame on bros.
No. The USADA is the worst organization in doping controls. Frank Shorter was one of the founding members, and he quit in disgust at their tactics. They don't test worth a crap, they just threaten and bribe people to make statements that implicate competitors, and then they ignore informed, first hand statements that are contrary to their preconceived conclusions. They are THE WORST, run by scumbags who are making a fortune casting aspersions on athletes. Their operating philosophy is that anyone who wins is a cheater or he wouldn't be a winner. If Joseph McCarthy ran an anti-doping organization, it would work exactly like the USADA.
kongols
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6/7/2013 7:36am
Xeno wrote:
If these guys are on the juice, why don't they take a victory lap and throw some huge whips for the crowd? Remember those days?
That is one thing we still have here and it's such a crowd pleaser. It's a damn shame you don't have it anymore.
Jeff alessi
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6/7/2013 7:41am
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing other riders of using drugs*

First off mike Alessi doesn't go on the Internet, it was me that said the top riders have the funds to acquire the things that make them never get tired. So when your going to try and make a statement try and get one thing right.

The only thing I have left to say is this, if a select few riders are the only riders with safe guards to do what they want and not worry about being penalized for their actions then what makes their accomplishments worthy. We all suffer, they benefit apmost 90% of everything this sport has to give and the worst part is racing gets boring. I'm not going to point fingers but were at the point where amateurs are having to decide at a young age if they want to win or not, and usually this is the direction they take to get there. When you hear that one rider employs a doctor to watch him sleep at night incase his heart stops beating because his heart rate is dropping below 30 bps it becomes unfair to him to even have to take it to that level to win. That's all.
WhKnuckle
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6/7/2013 7:52am
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing other riders of using drugs* First off mike Alessi doesn't go on the Internet, it was me that said...
Mike Alessi made a blanket statement accusing other riders of using drugs*

First off mike Alessi doesn't go on the Internet, it was me that said the top riders have the funds to acquire the things that make them never get tired. So when your going to try and make a statement try and get one thing right.

The only thing I have left to say is this, if a select few riders are the only riders with safe guards to do what they want and not worry about being penalized for their actions then what makes their accomplishments worthy. We all suffer, they benefit apmost 90% of everything this sport has to give and the worst part is racing gets boring. I'm not going to point fingers but were at the point where amateurs are having to decide at a young age if they want to win or not, and usually this is the direction they take to get there. When you hear that one rider employs a doctor to watch him sleep at night incase his heart stops beating because his heart rate is dropping below 30 bps it becomes unfair to him to even have to take it to that level to win. That's all.
It sounds to me like that rider would do better to hire someone to sleep with him and make sure his heart is beating plenty fast enough. Most of those girls work cheaper than doctors.

I'm just kidding of course.
6/7/2013 8:02am
Erroneous!! Erroneoussss!! lol Who cares, It's a speculative witch hunt at best! The elite riders are NOT top tier cuz PED/Blood doping.. Stamp that!
mxnick
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6/7/2013 8:14am
The Rock wrote:
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing? Will accepting these substances...
Excellent post. The underlying question is are PEDs and blood doping a positive or a negative for the image of SX/:MX racing?
Will accepting these substances as part of our MX culture affect how our sport is viewed by other Motorsports?

For the record not looking to ruin careers and family lives only initiating dialogue on this subject.

kongols-It is all good. Where did you live in the US and what do you miss if anything about the US?
kongols wrote:
I lived in Nantucket most of the time and for a brief period of time in Phoenix , AZ. It's not like I miss anything. It's...
I lived in Nantucket most of the time and for a brief period of time in Phoenix , AZ.
It's not like I miss anything. It's just different over there. Not worse, not better just different.
Nantucket? How did a Latvian end up living on that island? Though I think its safe to say Nantucket is not entirely comparable to the rest of the USA - but thats cool you lived there.

And they do have that cool little sand track over by the airport...and oh, the women!
6/7/2013 8:45am
motogrady wrote:
Hey, is the agency that tests here not one of the most respected and through on the planet earth? I'm sorry if the bad guys are...
Hey, is the agency that tests here not one of the most respected and through on the planet earth?

I'm sorry if the bad guys are a step ahead, that doesn't give anyone free hand to make blanket accusations like what we see here, without backing it up.
Everybody knows, the bad guys will always be ahead, so you guys will always bitch.
For what?

And yes , I know what the differences are, what does what.
It's been gone over a thousand times.

And the Lance thing, going back to another era, when all of them we're juicing, I don't agree with that either.
Selective prosecution from sore losers.


Hey guys, I gotta check out till this evening, life calls.

I just feel the OP has an agenda with American MX,
that there is drug testing, from the biggest and most respectable
company out there, and his prim and proper way of discussing things
are merely a guise to discredit the powers that be here in the US.

And because I live in West Virginia has nothing to do with it,
it has to do with the sport. flame on bros.
WhKnuckle wrote:
No. The USADA is the worst organization in doping controls. Frank Shorter was one of the founding members, and he quit in disgust at their tactics...
No. The USADA is the worst organization in doping controls. Frank Shorter was one of the founding members, and he quit in disgust at their tactics. They don't test worth a crap, they just threaten and bribe people to make statements that implicate competitors, and then they ignore informed, first hand statements that are contrary to their preconceived conclusions. They are THE WORST, run by scumbags who are making a fortune casting aspersions on athletes. Their operating philosophy is that anyone who wins is a cheater or he wouldn't be a winner. If Joseph McCarthy ran an anti-doping organization, it would work exactly like the USADA.
Just a sidenote: McCarthy was correct in almost every Communist accusation he made, as revealed by the de-classification of the Soviet's records after the fall of the USSR.

I now return you all the the rather interesting and informative doping thread.

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