Gps controlled engine mapping. Truly?

TransMotoSport
Edited Date/Time 5/25/2013 8:16am
I heard Matthes mention gps are legally allowed run on ama mx bikes during races. giving teams the option to alter engine mapping at designated co-ordinates on the fly. Is this truely withinn the rules?

I understand telemetry using gps and motor info is allowed, But I dont beleive on the fly adjustments would be within the rules. Can anybody confirm?
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theonlinelegend 5/24/2013 5:56pm
5/24/2013 5:56pm
I believe the mapping is done in the pits when riders want more or less for whatever section they need. After they go over the data. They're not altering engine mapping during a race or practice.
wildbill
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wildbill 5/24/2013 6:03pm
5/24/2013 6:03pm
If you're not cheating, you aint winning.
TransMotoSport 5/24/2013 6:08pm
5/24/2013 6:08pm
theonlinelegend wrote:
I believe the mapping is done in the pits when riders want more or less for whatever section they need. After they go over the data...
I believe the mapping is done in the pits when riders want more or less for whatever section they need. After they go over the data. They're not altering engine mapping during a race or practice.
thats what i would believe, but Matthes clearly stated the use of on board gps to alter mapping at desired points during a race
DownSouth
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DownSouth 5/24/2013 6:18pm
5/24/2013 6:18pm
It is not legal to use GPS to do real time control of electronics during a race.


3.15 Telemetry and Traction Control

a. Electronic devices designed specifically for traction control are prohibited. This includes sensors that can determine front wheel speed and any electronic control to the brake systems.

b. Electronic transmittal of information, including radio communication to or from a moving motorcycle, is prohibited with the following exceptions:

i. MX Sports transponders utilized for scoring purposes (mandatory equipment assigned by AMA Pro Racing).

ii. Data or video transmitted for the sole use of MX Sports-approved event television production (mandatory equipment assigned by MX Sports).

iii. Electronic lap-timing devices are permitted. Transmitter beacons must be in an approved area. GPS may be used for the sole purpose of lap timing and track mapping only. Receivers/antennas shall not be mounted on the front area of the front number plate.

c. Data logging is permitted; however, the information may not be downloaded in real time from a moving motorcycle.

d. Information downloaded from the motorcycle may be reviewed by the Chief Technical Inspector at any time.

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Matthes
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Matthes 5/24/2013 6:20pm
5/24/2013 6:20pm
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in between sessions. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Check out this story I did last year.. scroll down and read about it FREESTONE OBS
mototrader
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mototrader 5/24/2013 6:31pm
5/24/2013 6:31pm
lol @ the rules


like they aren't easy to break. how would the ama/feld know if they were transmitting data?

its well known fact most of these guys are doping EPO for fucks sake
DownSouth
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DownSouth 5/24/2013 6:38pm
5/24/2013 6:38pm Edited Date/Time 5/24/2013 6:39pm
mototrader wrote:
lol @ the rules like they aren't easy to break. how would the ama/feld know if they were transmitting data? its well known fact most of...
lol @ the rules


like they aren't easy to break. how would the ama/feld know if they were transmitting data?

its well known fact most of these guys are doping EPO for fucks sake
I think you have "wild uninformed speculation" confused with "well known fact."
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 5/24/2013 6:41pm
5/24/2013 6:41pm
That's kind of sucky to me. How can a privateer possibly compete with that? And how would a common rider use that kind of thing even if it was included on a production bike? But that's the way it's going, just like it was in MotoGP. Pretty soon a rider will thank his mechanic, his mom and dad, his trainer and his software guy. Instead of "Those Dunlops really hooked up off the gate", it'll be "That R7dot4Rev4 map really hooked up off the gate. I could feel a little spin out of the Frog Pond, but we'll mess with that mapping before the next moto and we'll be good."
ando
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ando 5/24/2013 6:56pm
5/24/2013 6:56pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's kind of sucky to me. How can a privateer possibly compete with that? And how would a common rider use that kind of thing even...
That's kind of sucky to me. How can a privateer possibly compete with that? And how would a common rider use that kind of thing even if it was included on a production bike? But that's the way it's going, just like it was in MotoGP. Pretty soon a rider will thank his mechanic, his mom and dad, his trainer and his software guy. Instead of "Those Dunlops really hooked up off the gate", it'll be "That R7dot4Rev4 map really hooked up off the gate. I could feel a little spin out of the Frog Pond, but we'll mess with that mapping before the next moto and we'll be good."
Privateers probably can't compete with that sort of tech, but that's the advantage of being a factory.

I'm sure some teams have contemplated real-time updating of mapping; if so I'd be interested in knowing if the GPS can log position changes quickly and precisely enough for MX applications.
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pdub187 5/24/2013 6:59pm
5/24/2013 6:59pm Edited Date/Time 5/24/2013 6:59pm
You don't have to have GPS to do what you're talking about. The spinning of the wheel can act as a kind of trundle wheel to allow you to know where along the circuit you are based on distance traveled from the started/finish.
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 5/24/2013 7:21pm
5/24/2013 7:21pm
pdub187 wrote:
You don't have to have GPS to do what you're talking about. The spinning of the wheel can act as a kind of trundle wheel to...
You don't have to have GPS to do what you're talking about. The spinning of the wheel can act as a kind of trundle wheel to allow you to know where along the circuit you are based on distance traveled from the started/finish.
That would be tough in motocross - the wheels spin all the time. They're never hooked up.
TransMotoSport 5/24/2013 7:38pm
5/24/2013 7:38pm
Matthes wrote:
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in...
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in between sessions. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Check out this story I did last year.. scroll down and read about it FREESTONE OBS
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion,
Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run gps on board the bike preprogrammed to make mapping changes in sections? thats my interpretation.
Matthes
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Matthes 5/24/2013 7:52pm
5/24/2013 7:52pm
Matthes wrote:
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in...
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in between sessions. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Check out this story I did last year.. scroll down and read about it FREESTONE OBS
TransMotoSport wrote:
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion, Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run...
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion,
Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run gps on board the bike preprogrammed to make mapping changes in sections? thats my interpretation.
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to act a certain way in different sections of the track. Check out that link for more info and what a track looks like mapped out.
kingkabong
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kingkabong 5/24/2013 7:57pm
5/24/2013 7:57pm
Not a fan of this tech. It should be illegal. It hasn't made MotoGP fun to watch at all.
TransMotoSport 5/24/2013 8:02pm
5/24/2013 8:02pm
Matthes wrote:
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in...
I didn't say during the race, I said that during the race day they can. They can download the track map and adjust from there in between sessions. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Check out this story I did last year.. scroll down and read about it FREESTONE OBS
TransMotoSport wrote:
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion, Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run...
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion,
Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run gps on board the bike preprogrammed to make mapping changes in sections? thats my interpretation.
Matthes wrote:
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to...
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to act a certain way in different sections of the track. Check out that link for more info and what a track looks like mapped out.
sorry to be a dumb ass, however, the instructions to the bike to act a certain way in different sections is controlled by what? GPS?
Matthes
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Matthes 5/24/2013 8:08pm
5/24/2013 8:08pm
TransMotoSport wrote:
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion, Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run...
pulpmx 130520. @ the 1hr 40min 40 sec mark, Steve and JT discussion,
Hey Steve love your stuff, can you clarify, do you mean they run gps on board the bike preprogrammed to make mapping changes in sections? thats my interpretation.
Matthes wrote:
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to...
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to act a certain way in different sections of the track. Check out that link for more info and what a track looks like mapped out.
TransMotoSport wrote:
sorry to be a dumb ass, however, the instructions to the bike to act a certain way in different sections is controlled by what? GPS?
They need the GPS to map the track out. Then after they have a map, they can go onto certain sections of the track and tune the bike to have different RPM's or fuel mixture but not during the race itself.
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Brad460 5/24/2013 8:22pm
5/24/2013 8:22pm
Matthes wrote:
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to...
They need the GPS to map the track out after the first practice. Then they can zero in on certain sections and program the bike to act a certain way in different sections of the track. Check out that link for more info and what a track looks like mapped out.
TransMotoSport wrote:
sorry to be a dumb ass, however, the instructions to the bike to act a certain way in different sections is controlled by what? GPS?
Matthes wrote:
They need the GPS to map the track out. Then after they have a map, they can go onto certain sections of the track and tune...
They need the GPS to map the track out. Then after they have a map, they can go onto certain sections of the track and tune the bike to have different RPM's or fuel mixture but not during the race itself.
Fairly old technology if you consider other forms of racing..
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AzTrooper 5/24/2013 8:25pm
5/24/2013 8:25pm Edited Date/Time 5/24/2013 8:31pm
Wow after reading Matthes' reply, there is a lot more technology used in MX and SX that I ever thought was utilized

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TransMotoSport 5/24/2013 8:30pm
5/24/2013 8:30pm Edited Date/Time 5/25/2013 12:53am
Thanks Mathes, for the insight, I assume they must use some sought of on board position sensor for the motorcycle to be able to run different maps in one lap.
I find this technical side of racing and the racers daily training programs super interesting. Its great you have the outlet to help inform us.
overthebars39 5/24/2013 9:39pm
5/24/2013 9:39pm
Brad460 wrote:
Fairly old technology if you consider other forms of racing..
Indeed allot of recreational trackday riders have a GPS laptimer to hunt better laptimes.
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GuyB 5/24/2013 9:54pm
5/24/2013 9:54pm
mototrader wrote:
lol @ the rules like they aren't easy to break. how would the ama/feld know if they were transmitting data? its well known fact most of...
lol @ the rules


like they aren't easy to break. how would the ama/feld know if they were transmitting data?

its well known fact most of these guys are doping EPO for fucks sake
I'd say it's a well-known fact that people post a lot of stupid stuff in here. This is a prime example. Proof, or STFU.
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dilligaf 5/25/2013 1:58am
5/25/2013 1:58am
People that bitch about factory teams having items and it not being fair should STFU! Tell it to DM18, his team does NOT use works electronics and i dare someone to say his bike looked slow this season... Read the in-house engine guys response to MXA when they rode Sipes 250 and how he went on about the electronics etc. its not a matter of who has the electronics and who does'nt... it's more a issue of who knows what to do with the tools they have and who is totally stuck in the old carb days when it comes to EFI bikes! PC admits to gains this season using a aftermarket electronics system that anyone can buy off the shelf, this is a great advance for the sport for suxh teams to use a commercial system. Point is people will bitch when they don't put the work in or don't/can't learn a new system of improvement period.

As for the Matthes talking about GPS and how it is being used in the sport this is just good reporting and talking about the technical growth of the sport. Good job Steve some people do like to know more in depth about what the teams are doing besides new gear and helmet paint colors.
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kev472 5/25/2013 4:34am
5/25/2013 4:34am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2013 4:36am
Wasn't there an supercross race a few years ago were Stewart 's bike had a sensor mounted on the swing arm near the brake caliper, I saw pictures of this,can't remember what race though, people were speculating it was some kinda traction control
But nowadays even PC uses GET data systems correct?
ando
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ando 5/25/2013 6:50am
5/25/2013 6:50am
The more I think about it the more I think that on the fly mapping changes probably isn't all that desirable. I can't imagine too many riders would want the nature of engine response and power delivery changing during the race.
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kingkabong 5/25/2013 6:56am
5/25/2013 6:56am
ando wrote:
The more I think about it the more I think that on the fly mapping changes probably isn't all that desirable. I can't imagine too many...
The more I think about it the more I think that on the fly mapping changes probably isn't all that desirable. I can't imagine too many riders would want the nature of engine response and power delivery changing during the race.
This is how it works in MotoGP. The bike knows where it is on the track and adjusts traction-control, engine map, etc. It takes away from rider control and I think it's making the racing pretty boring (in MotoGP).

Data acquisition for getting your setup per track is awesome, just don't want to see it go to a real-time system based on GPS.
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kongols 5/25/2013 7:25am
5/25/2013 7:25am
If I understood correctly it's a part of traction control and is widely used in both-SX and MX.
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Mr. Info 5/25/2013 8:16am
5/25/2013 8:16am
Look at who makes the rules. Then look at who runs the races. Do you think one really listens to the other. Business before pleasure.

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