What if: RV docked 3 places with no red flag

WhKnuckle
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3/3/2013 11:03am
RaceFace wrote:
Surprising I would agree......and that those that dislike RV disagree. Fact is RV is still behind James here and the Red Cross is just being held...
Surprising I would agree......and that those that dislike RV disagree. Fact is RV is still behind James here and the Red Cross is just being held way off to the side. RV was very stupid for even attempting to pass in that corner for fear of being penalized, but the photo doesn't make a very good case, unless you are biased. I will agree that he should have probably been docked back to 4th from the first misstep for his final finish. This one is still too grey an area....thanks to the rules as written.
I'm totally unbiased, and I think Villo would have won regardless. But he screwed up big time. If I was the AMA, I'm not sure what I'd do - but at a minimum I'd tell him he's on probation and if anything like that happens again, he's going to get DQed from the race. Since there was no actual harm done and he didn't really gain a competitive advantage (Stewart could have passed him right back but Villo gapped him immediately), I don't see how you'd actually dock him positions, but man, that was really blatant.
zook11
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3/3/2013 11:03am
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
kongols
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3/3/2013 11:04am
zook11 wrote:
@DavidVuillemin: You can pass on a yellow. RV pass is questionable but he passed JS later on during the race so the yellow incident is irrelevant...
@DavidVuillemin: You can pass on a yellow. RV pass is questionable but he passed JS later on during the race so the yellow incident is irrelevant IMO
pellco
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3/3/2013 11:05am
Oh well, the points have tightened up and thats what the powers to be wants coming down the home stretch.

The Shop

Outsider
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3/3/2013 11:06am
Motoxdoc wrote:
Not to stir the pot or anything.....well maybe a little. But this reminds me of when Poto "launched" his bike at J-law during an outdoor practice...
Not to stir the pot or anything.....well maybe a little. But this reminds me of when Poto "launched" his bike at J-law during an outdoor practice and J-Law was assessed a gate-pick penalty and put on double secret probation.....and nothing for Poto!
Oh, you mean when Jlaw was fucking with RV the whole practice? What would you have done?

They were both fined, btw
zook11
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3/3/2013 11:06am
zook11 wrote:
@DavidVuillemin: You can pass on a yellow. RV pass is questionable but he passed JS later on during the race so the yellow incident is irrelevant...
@DavidVuillemin: You can pass on a yellow. RV pass is questionable but he passed JS later on during the race so the yellow incident is irrelevant IMO
kongols wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img]
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 11:07am
I always am fascinated when rule-type stuff like this happens, because no one knows how it will be handled......or can argue how it should be handled. What does a Team manager use to argue with when everything is left up to a judgement from the race official? If the rulebook stated how something like the RV restart penalty was to be handled, they could argue it. With this rulebook, the answer to any discrepancy is "that's my decision".
kongols
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3/3/2013 11:07am
zook11 wrote:
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and...
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
zook11
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3/3/2013 11:08am
zook11 wrote:
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and...
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
kongols wrote:
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
TDeath21
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3/3/2013 11:10am
WhKnuckle wrote:
I'm totally unbiased, and I think Villo would have won regardless. But he screwed up big time. If I was the AMA, I'm not sure what...
I'm totally unbiased, and I think Villo would have won regardless. But he screwed up big time. If I was the AMA, I'm not sure what I'd do - but at a minimum I'd tell him he's on probation and if anything like that happens again, he's going to get DQed from the race. Since there was no actual harm done and he didn't really gain a competitive advantage (Stewart could have passed him right back but Villo gapped him immediately), I don't see how you'd actually dock him positions, but man, that was really blatant.
I am unbiased too. I thought Villopoto should have been penalized at Atlanta last year and at Anaheim 1 this year. I also thought he should have been penalized early in this race, which he was. I don't think he should be penalized for the final pass though. The main concern here is the AMA Rulebook. It needs some work. Also, I don't think you can penalize a rider when the flagger isn't doing his job right. Red cross means something serious happened, which means he needs to be in the middle of the track. Honestly I think they use red cross flags and red flag races way too much, and by doing so the riders never know how serious the problem really is.
gsxrcr28
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3/3/2013 11:10am
zook11 wrote:
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and...
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
kongols wrote:
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
zook11 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_525194.jpg[/img]
How old are you 12?

You have posted that same stupid picture 6 times now.

As for the original topic, the AMA made their decision, its time to move on to Daytona.
Motoxdoc
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3/3/2013 11:11am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 11:12am
Motoxdoc wrote:
Not to stir the pot or anything.....well maybe a little. But this reminds me of when Poto "launched" his bike at J-law during an outdoor practice...
Not to stir the pot or anything.....well maybe a little. But this reminds me of when Poto "launched" his bike at J-law during an outdoor practice and J-Law was assessed a gate-pick penalty and put on double secret probation.....and nothing for Poto!
Outsider wrote:
Oh, you mean when Jlaw was fucking with RV the whole practice? What would you have done?

They were both fined, btw
Yes that was what I meant.....Give them both the SAME penalty....that was simple!
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 11:15am
RaceFace wrote:
Surprising I would agree......and that those that dislike RV disagree. Fact is RV is still behind James here and the Red Cross is just being held...
Surprising I would agree......and that those that dislike RV disagree. Fact is RV is still behind James here and the Red Cross is just being held way off to the side. RV was very stupid for even attempting to pass in that corner for fear of being penalized, but the photo doesn't make a very good case, unless you are biased. I will agree that he should have probably been docked back to 4th from the first misstep for his final finish. This one is still too grey an area....thanks to the rules as written.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I'm totally unbiased, and I think Villo would have won regardless. But he screwed up big time. If I was the AMA, I'm not sure what...
I'm totally unbiased, and I think Villo would have won regardless. But he screwed up big time. If I was the AMA, I'm not sure what I'd do - but at a minimum I'd tell him he's on probation and if anything like that happens again, he's going to get DQed from the race. Since there was no actual harm done and he didn't really gain a competitive advantage (Stewart could have passed him right back but Villo gapped him immediately), I don't see how you'd actually dock him positions, but man, that was really blatant.
They need to make it clear starting now for all of them how Red Cross flags will be displayed, when it is ok stop paying them mind, and what the penalties will be (I'm all for a lap). Also it needs to be made serious how the flaggers will show. Get them out into the track and get more of them(flags). Don't mix flags.....either it is yellow or Red Cross.......not both. Point not mentioned is that I have seen much worse downed riders right at landings NOT have Red Cross....only yellows. This was a situation where the guy was off to the side uninsured and remounting his bike at the end if the section. Did not warrant red cross flags. I also think allowing passing under yellow defeats the purpose as well.
zook11
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3/3/2013 11:16am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 11:17am
kongols wrote:
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
zook11 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_525194.jpg[/img]
gsxrcr28 wrote:
How old are you 12? You have posted that same stupid picture 6 times now. As for the original topic, the AMA made their decision, its...
How old are you 12?

You have posted that same stupid picture 6 times now.

As for the original topic, the AMA made their decision, its time to move on to Daytona.


Whole lotta crying around here going on.
gsxrcr28
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3/3/2013 11:18am
zook11 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_525194.jpg[/img]
gsxrcr28 wrote:
How old are you 12? You have posted that same stupid picture 6 times now. As for the original topic, the AMA made their decision, its...
How old are you 12?

You have posted that same stupid picture 6 times now.

As for the original topic, the AMA made their decision, its time to move on to Daytona.
zook11 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_449265.jpg[/img] Whole lotta crying around here going on.


Whole lotta crying around here going on.
That's what I thought. It time to grow up dude, its clear you are biased on the subject by the picture in your avatar.
TDeath21
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3/3/2013 11:21am
Motoxdoc wrote:
Yes that was what I meant.....Give them both the SAME penalty....that was simple!
So you'd give the same penalty to a repeat offender who instigated the entire ordeal as you would a first time offender who retaliated?
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 11:22am
zook11 wrote:
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and...
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
kongols wrote:
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet. Seriously though, we have seen riders getting tripled past when they are at the landing of the jump with yellows only. A guy starting his bike off to the side of the corner exiting the section is not a concern.
kongols
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3/3/2013 11:28am
RaceFace wrote:
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet...
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet. Seriously though, we have seen riders getting tripled past when they are at the landing of the jump with yellows only. A guy starting his bike off to the side of the corner exiting the section is not a concern.
So riders has a powers to take matter in their own hands and make their own judgment based on a situation? Are you saying flags are for pussies?
kongols
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3/3/2013 11:29am
Damn this is a small ass sport. Whoever pays orders the music.
Outsider
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3/3/2013 11:32am
"What if" James passed RV in the same spot?

Would Kongols be calling for his head?

LMAO
kongols
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3/3/2013 11:33am
Outsider wrote:
"What if" James passed RV in the same spot?

Would Kongols be calling for his head?

LMAO
Well, perhaps I wouldn`t be this vocal but definitely would not defend such action.
toroP
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3/3/2013 11:40am
TDeath21 wrote:
He screwed up the first time and got docked for it. He was lucky it was red flagged. The second one is way too much of...
He screwed up the first time and got docked for it. He was lucky it was red flagged. The second one is way too much of a gray area to hand out a penalty in my opinion.
Yes, docked....... 20 ft. on lap 3.Wink ooo, ouch.
Motoxdoc
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3/3/2013 11:40am
Motoxdoc wrote:
Yes that was what I meant.....Give them both the SAME penalty....that was simple!
TDeath21 wrote:
So you'd give the same penalty to a repeat offender who instigated the entire ordeal as you would a first time offender who retaliated?
How do you know who "instigated the entire ordeal?" I would give out penalties according to how blatantly dangerous a rider is and repeat offenses would be considered.
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 11:41am
RaceFace wrote:
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet...
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet. Seriously though, we have seen riders getting tripled past when they are at the landing of the jump with yellows only. A guy starting his bike off to the side of the corner exiting the section is not a concern.
kongols wrote:
So riders has a powers to take matter in their own hands and make their own judgment based on a situation? Are you saying flags are...
So riders has a powers to take matter in their own hands and make their own judgment based on a situation? Are you saying flags are for pussies?
Well, didn't think you'd have an intelligent comment. A rulebook for little league can't be ambiguous. If it is, it is a suggestion book. That's what SX has, an official suggestion book. All of the suggestions within are malleable and up for interpretation for all, as long as it is what the race official says. Any rulebook that gives the race official full autonomy in handling situations and doling out penalties......including making up the penalties on the spot ceases to be a rulebook. He could have literally decided any one of maybe 10 different options in docking RV for the first instance, including a time penalty, a lap penalty, position penalty, on the restart or at the finish. The penalty for his offense should be known and in black and white in the rulebook. Literally, the same thing could happen to Stewart next week and they could dock him 10 seconds at the finish, instead of 3 positions on a restart. That seems sensible?
flarider
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3/3/2013 11:43am
In my opinion we have two issues at hand;

Rules infraction one and the time the penalty was handed down

Rules infraction two and if it was an actual penalty.

As for infraction one, it seems to me that administering the penalty "mid-race" which is essentially what they did during the re-start is an improper application, and I say this because had the race NOT been red flagged, the penalty would have been administered post-race, so the rider actually gains an unfair advantage due to the race stoppage. It's an unfair advantage because it was administered mid-race and not post race as infractions are typically done. We do not use a black flag to make riders stop in the mechanics area for a "stop and go" or "drive through" penalty like in auto racing and we do not use a "meatball" flag in MX/SX like used in road racing for forced pit stops due to rule infractions. Not to mention, lots of people were joking at the time that all the penalty is going to do during the restart is motivate RV, again, presenting an unfair advantage.

As for infraction two, the jumps have flashing red lights, there were two Red Cross flags and multiple yellow flags, so the idea that RV didn't know or see it is pure silliness. As for where the Red Cross flag area ends in regards to there being multiple flags displayed, what happens when you have a number of flags out as with last nights incident and as was said earlier "you go with the last flag shown," we'll many time, since they're displayed simultaneously, you can have Red Cross, yellow, yellow, Red Cross and then yellow again, so is the rider to, in the space of a hundred feet, to not pass-pass-not pass-pass? That is very confusing and the Red Cross flag area is not defined. It has always been my understanding that Red Cross flag supersedes yellow and that is the primary indicator, and you do not pass until past the "incident." Regardless of what the rule book says, in laymens terms, that is how I have always understood it, otherwise a yellow flag should NEVER be displayed when a red flashing light or Red Cross flag is displayed.

Last point and more of a question directed to GuyB, and the other powers that be who read here, is there an appeals process? We know when the fuel issue happened with RC, it was appealed to the FIM who over ruled the AMA decision, is that an option here? Does Rockstar Suzuki or Yoshimura Suzuki have any addition recourse or is trackside ruling final, without appeal?
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 11:43am
Outsider wrote:
"What if" James passed RV in the same spot?

Would Kongols be calling for his head?

LMAO
kongols wrote:
Well, perhaps I wouldn`t be this vocal but definitely would not defend such action.
It would sound exactly the same except the avatars would reversed.
Bob693
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3/3/2013 11:44am
zook11 wrote:
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and...
@RickyCarmichael: @WildyR u can pass under a yellow.. So the way I see it is if the last flag that you pass is a yellow and not a cross them u go by that.
kongols wrote:
Lmfao, I did not know yellow flag means the end of the red cross flag.
Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern".
RaceFace wrote:
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet...
What concerns you or me may not concern RV. That type of wording does not belong in a rulebook for a professional sport. Ambiguous at bet. Seriously though, we have seen riders getting tripled past when they are at the landing of the jump with yellows only. A guy starting his bike off to the side of the corner exiting the section is not a concern.
The Red Cross flag signifies there are medical personnel on the track, not how bad someone crashed.
3/3/2013 11:45am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 11:47am
If the flaggers weren't volunteers their actions would be taken more seriously. There didn't need to be a red cross flag in that situation.
toroP
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3/3/2013 11:48am
dkg wrote:
My bigger concern is that those making the decisions don't do so consistently or in this race even seem to have a basic understanding of the...
My bigger concern is that those making the decisions don't do so consistently or in this race even seem to have a basic understanding of the rule book. For example (taken from the rule book appendix A paragraph A1.d):

d. The Race Director may pronounce the following penalties.
• Warning
• Fine
• Lap deductions or finishing position deductions
• Time and/or point penalties
• Disqualification
• Suspension
• Probation not exceeding 12 months from the date of offence

The initial penalty of docking three spots in the restart is not a penalty which the Race Director is allowed to impose under the rule book. Any argument that doing so consitutes a "time" penalty does not work as the word time means just that, not restart location. Further, all of the above penalties seem to be ones that are imposed after the conclusion of the race. Proper handling of the initial penalty would have been to allow the race to restart in original running order and then impose the penalty. The Race Director is not given (under the rules) discretion to impose penalties other than those specifically stated.

Going on to the second arguable Red Cross flag violation, a strained review of the tapes could remotely conclude that no violation occurred. Is this really the proper message to send to the Riders regarding the respect to be given to a Red Cross flag? The flag was clearly dislayed. The offending Rider had a previous violation IN THE SAME race. Yet it is construed to be no penalty. Since the purpose of the red cross flag is safety to the riders and medical crew (something that would seem to be of paramount importance) perhaps strict interpretation should have been used.

The solution to these issues would probably be to add another subpart to paragraph d, such as:

• Or any other wild idea the Race Director comes up with at the time

GuyB, this post isn't directed at any comment you made even though I quoted your posting, the quotation just semed a good place to start.

As for the handling of these incidents, I'd award an EPIC FAIL.
Great post!

There is nothing in the rule book that allows the penalty(or non-penalty in this case) that they assessed.
flarider
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3/3/2013 11:49am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 11:50am
RaceFace wrote:
Well, didn't think you'd have an intelligent comment. A rulebook for little league can't be ambiguous. If it is, it is a suggestion book. That's what...
Well, didn't think you'd have an intelligent comment. A rulebook for little league can't be ambiguous. If it is, it is a suggestion book. That's what SX has, an official suggestion book. All of the suggestions within are malleable and up for interpretation for all, as long as it is what the race official says. Any rulebook that gives the race official full autonomy in handling situations and doling out penalties......including making up the penalties on the spot ceases to be a rulebook. He could have literally decided any one of maybe 10 different options in docking RV for the first instance, including a time penalty, a lap penalty, position penalty, on the restart or at the finish. The penalty for his offense should be known and in black and white in the rulebook. Literally, the same thing could happen to Stewart next week and they could dock him 10 seconds at the finish, instead of 3 positions on a restart. That seems sensible?
Which is why people bitch and moan over a simple law being passed in Congress has four billion word on four thousand pages, because someone somewhere will want to parse words or split hairs and call it "ambiguous" rather than simply accepting the rule or law on face value.

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