Idiot question of the day...

ga_pike
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ga_pike
Edited Date/Time 2/21/2013 12:14pm
Aside from teh exotic stuff like the air shock, what exactly is so special about "Factory Suspension?" Can someone break down the different levels of suspension these guys are running and the difference? I hear terms like Factory, A-Kit, Custom... Honestly, how can the factory stuff be that much different if they use the same basic parts inside? I understand that there is some difference when I see Alessi get bucked like crazy in the whoops but really, why can't the factory level stuff be duplicated?

Also, if the factory stuff is so good, why don't we put that product on the production bikes? Is that simply a cost thing?
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bns99121
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bns99121 2/20/2013 9:34am
2/20/2013 9:34am
3 things I can think of that the Factory has

1)Extensive Testing

2)More Resources

3)Extreme Customization to the rider
newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 9:40am
2/20/2013 9:40am
Not to mention higher quality machining, tighter tolerances, high tech coatings and many components that are totally different than stock.
40Plus_922mx
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40Plus_922mx 2/20/2013 9:42am
2/20/2013 9:42am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 9:44am
Basicly when you see a top rider blitz past a 3 digit guy in the whoops. That's the difference.
Or when you see a top rider use a steep backside to drag the rear tire down after a large jump and it doesn't kick him over the bars, where the same type of landing would auger mortal man.
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FLmxer 2/20/2013 9:43am
2/20/2013 9:43am
If you rode with some you would be pissed at yours.

The Shop

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newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 9:43am
2/20/2013 9:43am
Stock WP on the left, KYB on right. MX Tech's Huck Valve bottoming cone system in the middle.

newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 9:49am
2/20/2013 9:49am
I just had a set of vintage dampening rod forks worked on by Race Tech and I am amazed at the difference in feel and they still haven't been reinstalled on the bike. Dampener rods were modified and their gold valve emulators installed. Very affordable job they did also! There is a serious downside to letting Race Tech mod a set of vintage forks though. I have about a dozen other vintage bikes.....Laughing
ga_pike
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ga_pike 2/20/2013 10:00am
2/20/2013 10:00am
newmann wrote:
Stock WP on the left, KYB on right. MX Tech's Huck Valve bottoming cone system in the middle. [img]http://www.chadsoffroadsetups.com.au/mx-tech/Huck-Valve.jpg[/img]
Stock WP on the left, KYB on right. MX Tech's Huck Valve bottoming cone system in the middle.

Thanks for this, it shows a good picture of some of the difference.

Don't get me wrong, when I raced, I had modified suspension but naturally, I never had factory stuff. Just curious how much different stuff you get done by Race Tech, Pro Circuit, Pro Action, etc. is internally compared to "factory" stuff.
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Frodad78 2/20/2013 10:07am
2/20/2013 10:07am
newmann wrote:
Stock WP on the left, KYB on right. MX Tech's Huck Valve bottoming cone system in the middle. [img]http://www.chadsoffroadsetups.com.au/mx-tech/Huck-Valve.jpg[/img]
Stock WP on the left, KYB on right. MX Tech's Huck Valve bottoming cone system in the middle.

This is wild, I love seeing stuff like this. Suspension components and tuning always intrigue me. I bet a lot of R&D went into that MX-Tech WP.
TX24
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TX24 2/20/2013 10:43am
2/20/2013 10:43am
Plus the fact when those top guys go out on the track their suspension is like new, just like the rest of the bike.
TripleFive 2/20/2013 10:50am
2/20/2013 10:50am
Besides the picture, there is basically zero information in this thread.

A lot of hot air from people who have no idea.
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ga_pike 2/20/2013 11:02am
2/20/2013 11:02am
TripleFive wrote:
Besides the picture, there is basically zero information in this thread.

A lot of hot air from people who have no idea.
LOL! I wasn't going to say that out loud though. Don;t you know everyone is a doctor, trainer, master mechanic, lawyer, and dictator who is a member of Vital?
Yamaharider1474 2/20/2013 12:58pm
2/20/2013 12:58pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 12:58pm
newmann wrote:
Not to mention higher quality machining, tighter tolerances, high tech coatings and many components that are totally different than stock.
I work for a Suspension manufacture and above nails it. the three bottoming components showed all do the same things they hydraulically cushion bottoming but the one in the middle is allowing some blow by unless the hit is big! and once that happens the port is closed off and the Hydraulic cushion does its job. not reinventing the wheel just hard to put that much of a component in to a production based fork due to cost increases hence the large aftermarket world of suspension. just my 2 cents
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captmoto 2/20/2013 1:24pm
2/20/2013 1:24pm
newmann wrote:
I just had a set of vintage dampening rod forks worked on by Race Tech and I am amazed at the difference in feel and they...
I just had a set of vintage dampening rod forks worked on by Race Tech and I am amazed at the difference in feel and they still haven't been reinstalled on the bike. Dampener rods were modified and their gold valve emulators installed. Very affordable job they did also! There is a serious downside to letting Race Tech mod a set of vintage forks though. I have about a dozen other vintage bikes.....Laughing
Have you installed any Emulators yourself? Aside from modding the rods it seems like a drop in job. I have been using RT for 10 years now.
qtrracer
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qtrracer 2/20/2013 1:42pm
2/20/2013 1:42pm
Hydraulics cannot "cushion' anything, once a port is closed that loop is solid. Unless another damping(not dampening) circuit is in play the forks become solid.
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newmann 2/20/2013 2:25pm
2/20/2013 2:25pm
qtrracer wrote:
Hydraulics cannot "cushion' anything, once a port is closed that loop is solid. Unless another damping(not dampening) circuit is in play the forks become solid.
Depends on how that port closes. Here are the old school semi-works forks off of Kent Howertons championship Husky. So simple yet they were on the bike that bested the efforts of the mighty factory Honda team. Notice that there is no "top out" spring to cushion the fork on rebound. It literally ends up metal to metal which would normally result in a severe jolt as the fork extends all the way out. By simply tapering the dampening rod it uses the fork oil to cushion the top out effect.









slipdog
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slipdog 2/20/2013 2:50pm
2/20/2013 2:50pm
qtrracer wrote:
Hydraulics cannot "cushion' anything, once a port is closed that loop is solid. Unless another damping(not dampening) circuit is in play the forks become solid.
There is X amount of bypass built into the oil lock piston, therefore it will not become solid. The MX tech system allowed extra bypass in the first part, then increases resistance after the oil lock passes the bypass ports making it a position sensitive system.
Bigoldbeef 2/20/2013 3:07pm
2/20/2013 3:07pm
ga_pike wrote:
Aside from teh exotic stuff like the air shock, what exactly is so special about "Factory Suspension?" Can someone break down the different levels of suspension...
Aside from teh exotic stuff like the air shock, what exactly is so special about "Factory Suspension?" Can someone break down the different levels of suspension these guys are running and the difference? I hear terms like Factory, A-Kit, Custom... Honestly, how can the factory stuff be that much different if they use the same basic parts inside? I understand that there is some difference when I see Alessi get bucked like crazy in the whoops but really, why can't the factory level stuff be duplicated?

Also, if the factory stuff is so good, why don't we put that product on the production bikes? Is that simply a cost thing?
High end stuff isn't on production bikes only because of the cost.
qtrracer
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qtrracer 2/20/2013 3:14pm
2/20/2013 3:14pm
I understand cone anti bottom out or top out depending on where it is used and like I stated unless another loop comes into play once oil stops moving it becomes solid. What slipdog described is another circuit that comes into play or a bypass. And newmann is correct as many vintage dapmper rods had the cone on the bottom to slow down the action which acts as an anti-bottom out device. But the oil it self cannot cushion, it can slow an action till the mass it is controlling stops its movement in said direction. Oil is not compressible.

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longgone008
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longgone008 2/20/2013 3:36pm
2/20/2013 3:36pm
newmann wrote:
I just had a set of vintage dampening rod forks worked on by Race Tech and I am amazed at the difference in feel and they...
I just had a set of vintage dampening rod forks worked on by Race Tech and I am amazed at the difference in feel and they still haven't been reinstalled on the bike. Dampener rods were modified and their gold valve emulators installed. Very affordable job they did also! There is a serious downside to letting Race Tech mod a set of vintage forks though. I have about a dozen other vintage bikes.....Laughing
captmoto wrote:
Have you installed any Emulators yourself? Aside from modding the rods it seems like a drop in job. I have been using RT for 10 years...
Have you installed any Emulators yourself? Aside from modding the rods it seems like a drop in job. I have been using RT for 10 years now.
newmann,have you rode a bike on the track with the race tech mods done?Would like to get a report on how it feels before i send ours out there.
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DrSweden 2/20/2013 3:53pm
2/20/2013 3:53pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 3:55pm
What about DV saying he rode basically stock components on his factory YZ450 outdoors 2005? He claimed in MX it was all about the mechanic and modern OEM is good enough outdoors. He said SX is another story though. I'm pretty sure he claimed this, he he should know. Langston rode stock externals on his 2006(?) yzf because he digged the flex. I have no idea, but I feel this is huge psychological part in this? One guy factory rider Coppins like 2008 said his factory Showa was shit one day only to have them perfectly dialed the next week, how much tolerance, kashima coating come in play? Alessi has newer looked better in SX and his def not on factory shit now, while he has been previously with equal, or even less results?

Thoughts?
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DrSweden 2/20/2013 4:00pm
2/20/2013 4:00pm
Also talked to a guy at öhlins 5 years ago, got a hold of a 5k GP kit for CR250, but they needed new coating on lugs and was on sale for cheap, so I was in the process of restoring, but the rep said what we build 2004 u can get on a stocker 2007. Don't bother. He saved me tons of cash, and coming from him I felt he can hardly be a better advocate for the truth?
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captmoto 2/20/2013 5:48pm
2/20/2013 5:48pm
longgone008 wrote:
newmann,have you rode a bike on the track with the race tech mods done?Would like to get a report on how it feels before i send...
newmann,have you rode a bike on the track with the race tech mods done?Would like to get a report on how it feels before i send ours out there.
Never heard anything negative. My YZ465 was set up for a 180 int. I'm a "little" more than that and the bike still was amazing. It sticks, doesn't swap, hop or do anything weird. It has since been set up for me. You have to be honest about weight, skill and that stuff but it is a dramatic difference. I am trying to pinch some pennies and recycle some cans for a set of shocks for my 79 RM250.
TripleFive 2/20/2013 6:28pm
2/20/2013 6:28pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 6:30pm
One aspect that I see that separates the unobtainable set ups from the rest is how the front forks handle the whoops in conjunction with the corners.

The factory stuff appears to remain more rigid in the whoops while simultaneously plush in the corners--whereas the traditional stuff is more of a zero-sum-game; if you're stiff in the whoops you're stiff in the corners.

Yeah, there are high/low speed compression adjustments on the stock stuff, but in actuality this adjustability is not particularly dynamic when the rubber meets the road.

On the factory stuff these adjustments appear MUCH more influential and specific.
newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 7:41pm
2/20/2013 7:41pm
Older works Showa's.

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rrjr 2/20/2013 7:46pm
2/20/2013 7:46pm
DrSweden wrote:
What about DV saying he rode basically stock components on his factory YZ450 outdoors 2005? He claimed in MX it was all about the mechanic and...
What about DV saying he rode basically stock components on his factory YZ450 outdoors 2005? He claimed in MX it was all about the mechanic and modern OEM is good enough outdoors. He said SX is another story though. I'm pretty sure he claimed this, he he should know. Langston rode stock externals on his 2006(?) yzf because he digged the flex. I have no idea, but I feel this is huge psychological part in this? One guy factory rider Coppins like 2008 said his factory Showa was shit one day only to have them perfectly dialed the next week, how much tolerance, kashima coating come in play? Alessi has newer looked better in SX and his def not on factory shit now, while he has been previously with equal, or even less results?

Thoughts?
Alessi has newer looked better in SX and his def not on factory shit now, while he has been previously with equal, or even less results?

Alessi is on Ohlins suspension with tuning help from the factory on his "MCR450" instead of the showa stuff that is run on the production Suzuki bikes.
newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 8:04pm
2/20/2013 8:04pm
91 Showa kitted forks.

newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 8:08pm
2/20/2013 8:08pm
One of Lucien Tilkins hand built prototype monoshocks from the 70's.

newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 8:14pm
2/20/2013 8:14pm
And the one I think has unlimited potential.

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TeamGreen 2/20/2013 8:18pm
2/20/2013 8:18pm
Pfffft...

Stock forms from an '89 KX?

Buehler?

Anyone?
newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 8:22pm
2/20/2013 8:22pm
When works suspension was offered to the masses. Suzuki's Full Floater cost too much to produce all the additional components and keep pricing in line. Kind of makes you wonder how they can sell 4 strokes with 157 additional parts in the engine??

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