Frame preference: aluminum or steel?

Erick
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10/28/2012 7:16am
rmpilot wrote:
can someone explain this to me, people say stiffer suspension or frames is better in sand but riding at dyracuse which i believe is about nasty...
can someone explain this to me, people say stiffer suspension or frames is better in sand but riding at dyracuse which i believe is about nasty as sand can get, it feels to me like the bike is wandering and cant do anything?
The frame you personally would prefer depens on a lot of factors. One cannot say it for you. It depens on your weight, length, riding style, conditions, power, torque, center of gravity and the list goes on.

There is only compromise.
TerryK
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10/28/2012 8:23am
Neither. I prefer something a little softer.
























































Erick
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10/28/2012 8:29am
A thread can never have enough semi-dressed women.
TeamGreen
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10/28/2012 10:00am
I wonder what her FEA numbers look like?

Think she's not so rigid or are her ultimate fatigue numbers pretty high?

The Shop

Hut
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10/28/2012 10:16am
Erick wrote:
An aluminium frame is pretty much always stiffer than a steel frame. To get the same strength with aluminium you need more material, this means larger...
An aluminium frame is pretty much always stiffer than a steel frame.

To get the same strength with aluminium you need more material, this means larger tubing, castings, forgings etc.

Larger tubing means a higher stiffness because of its higher area moment of inertia.

Using advanced aluminium alloys an aluminium frame can be a lot lighter (6065, 7075 in T6 annealed condition), because of their higher specific strength. This also brings down the stiffness because you can use smaller tubing.

But remember that proper engineering meaning clever placement of materials can make a steel frame very light.

Note that stronger alloys aren't stiffer, there is no change in the Youngs modulus.

Steel generally is more resillient, which means it can take more energy and still return to its normal shape. This also is a factor for handling.

Note that both steel (KTM uses 25CrMo4 steel) and aluminium frames need to be carefully heat treated after welding. After repairing these frame you need to properly anneal and stress relieve the frame to achieve proper strength.

A lot of homegrown poorly converted frames (change in stress concentrations, flex charasteristics, not properly annealed) hold up because most people aren't fast enough to really stretch a frame to its limits. But this can happen if you are.

Finally! able to get to that pesky spark plug.
Erick
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10/28/2012 10:33am
TeamGreen wrote:
I wonder what her FEA numbers look like?

Think she's not so rigid or are her ultimate fatigue numbers pretty high?
My guess is that the frames are pretty solid, designed for an average rider. Propably goes through a history cycle of loading.

I have no idea about the FEA numbers, Pursang (www.pursangmotors.blogspot.com) have made their own aluminium frame. I would love to have their information and reference numbers for frame design.

10/28/2012 12:16pm
Blasted wikipedia! My guess is that the steering head alone is much cheaper to cast from Al rather than machining out a Cr Mo steel blank.
Al elasticity is next to nothing compared to steel You cannot buy an Al shock spring, but you can get a Ti spring.
This argument came up back 10 years ago. My guess is that Al alloys with high levels of elasticity have high material cost and/or are difficult to form and weld.
Of course no one seems to give a hoot about $10,000 dirt bikes now.
DrSweden
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10/28/2012 1:39pm
I remember listening to Reed speaking about going from the YZ250 steel to aluminum in the 04/05 shift, and he had issues with the aluminum frame. But I don't know if he performed worse though? I don't remember DV has similar issues, but I do know when he choose to build a play smoker last year, he choose the aluminum one...

I wonder how much this is mental, I assume a good rider can feel the difference, but I wonder if that extra rigidness really takes it's toll in some way? I was thinking using more flex in forks might give back the loss in frame, and be happy with 10 lbs less which might be a factor in many areas?

But, I know shit.
activeMX
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10/28/2012 3:35pm
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450.

Huge difference in how they handled and the fatigue I felt after a long moto. I have chronic shoulder problems and truly believe I can ride a steel framed KTM longer and harder than any current Al framed bike due to the increased flex.

In regards to maintenance I'd much rather have an aluminum frame. Nice to be able to just Scothbrite it and look as good as new again.
10/28/2012 4:51pm
activeMX wrote:
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450. Huge...
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450.

Huge difference in how they handled and the fatigue I felt after a long moto. I have chronic shoulder problems and truly believe I can ride a steel framed KTM longer and harder than any current Al framed bike due to the increased flex.

In regards to maintenance I'd much rather have an aluminum frame. Nice to be able to just Scothbrite it and look as good as new again.
so your comparing riding a 350 vs a 450 and a steel frame vs an aluminum frame, and you think its the metals that are making you less fatigued? might want to re evaluate your conclusion. If you had said the same for a 450 ktm, that would hold water, but not the 350.
Racer92
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10/28/2012 5:06pm
Steel
activeMX
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10/28/2012 5:36pm
activeMX wrote:
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450. Huge...
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450.

Huge difference in how they handled and the fatigue I felt after a long moto. I have chronic shoulder problems and truly believe I can ride a steel framed KTM longer and harder than any current Al framed bike due to the increased flex.

In regards to maintenance I'd much rather have an aluminum frame. Nice to be able to just Scothbrite it and look as good as new again.
tmauto769 wrote:
so your comparing riding a 350 vs a 450 and a steel frame vs an aluminum frame, and you think its the metals that are making...
so your comparing riding a 350 vs a 450 and a steel frame vs an aluminum frame, and you think its the metals that are making you less fatigued? might want to re evaluate your conclusion. If you had said the same for a 450 ktm, that would hold water, but not the 350.
Ha...ha.......No, I'll stick with my OPINION considering I ride a KTM 450 FE right now and feel the same way after riding a buddy's CRF 450 a couple weeks ago. Not to mention the 350 takes more energy to ride than a 450......again.....MY OPINION.
CR500Rider
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10/28/2012 5:46pm
I've found no advantage to an aluminum frame.
10/28/2012 8:05pm
activeMX wrote:
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450. Huge...
I didn't think there would be much of a difference until I bought a 2011 KTM 350 while I still had my 2010 YZF 450.

Huge difference in how they handled and the fatigue I felt after a long moto. I have chronic shoulder problems and truly believe I can ride a steel framed KTM longer and harder than any current Al framed bike due to the increased flex.

In regards to maintenance I'd much rather have an aluminum frame. Nice to be able to just Scothbrite it and look as good as new again.
tmauto769 wrote:
so your comparing riding a 350 vs a 450 and a steel frame vs an aluminum frame, and you think its the metals that are making...
so your comparing riding a 350 vs a 450 and a steel frame vs an aluminum frame, and you think its the metals that are making you less fatigued? might want to re evaluate your conclusion. If you had said the same for a 450 ktm, that would hold water, but not the 350.
activeMX wrote:
Ha...ha.......No, I'll stick with my OPINION considering I ride a KTM 450 FE right now and feel the same way after riding a buddy's CRF 450...
Ha...ha.......No, I'll stick with my OPINION considering I ride a KTM 450 FE right now and feel the same way after riding a buddy's CRF 450 a couple weeks ago. Not to mention the 350 takes more energy to ride than a 450......again.....MY OPINION.
hmm going to a 350 from a 450 and 250 I find the 350 takes way less energy to ride than a 450, my opinion. To me the difference between aluminum and steel is nil, 450 to 350 is a huge difference. But hey, different strokes for different folks.
10/28/2012 8:08pm
CR500Rider wrote:
I've found no advantage to an aluminum frame.
One, it is way easier to check the valves on a perimeter frame. I guess that really doesn't mean aluminum, but most aluminum frames are of the perimeter type. I guess going by your screen name you don't have that issue. Wink
CR500Rider
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10/28/2012 8:11pm Edited Date/Time 10/28/2012 8:12pm
CR500Rider wrote:
I've found no advantage to an aluminum frame.
tmauto769 wrote:
One, it is way easier to check the valves on a perimeter frame. I guess that really doesn't mean aluminum, but most aluminum frames are of...
One, it is way easier to check the valves on a perimeter frame. I guess that really doesn't mean aluminum, but most aluminum frames are of the perimeter type. I guess going by your screen name you don't have that issue. Wink
Nope, sure don't. But I do have enough room to work on the carb.
zookie
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10/29/2012 5:16am
unknownmxr wrote:
Last year of the steel frame yz had 48 mm forks. Al is cheaper to make because they can use castings. Also machining costs are lower...
Last year of the steel frame yz had 48 mm forks.
Al is cheaper to make because they can use castings. Also machining costs are lower because Al is softer.
Al is more difficult to weld , but this is not a factor on a production line.
Young's modulus for Al is 69 Gpa , steel is 300 gpa, Ti 105.
If two beams are the same dimensions in cross section and are loaded the same, the lower modulus beam will flex more.
Even though Al should be more flexy due to the lower E mod, the frames are always more rigid than steel.
Al does not have an elastic yield point. It begins plastic deformation as soon as it starts bending. The frame must be designed to be rigid because any amount of flexing would fatigue it.
No. Aluminum can be very elastic or not, depending on its allow or treatment. Also, your modulus quotations are dependent on the alloy and treatment of each of the materials.

Now for what I am pretty sure is actually going on with aluminum frames:

Aluminum "feels" rigid because it responds very violently to violent input. Aluminum does not have a very well damped response while relaxing from a situation in which it flexes from a load. The resulting response is vibration that is perceived as harshness by the rider. This phenomenon is not unknown to the automotive and bicycles worlds. Noise, vibration, and harshness engineering is a huge topic in the automotive environment as we realize how important it is to control system response as a method with which to achieve perceived comfort from the occupants of a vehicle.

An aluminum baseball bat is a wonderful example. Take two bats, same strength. One is aluminum, one is aluminum filled with a damping material. Which one feels crappy, which one feels better? The crappy one feels stiff, as if the force of the ball is being transmitted to your hands. The damped one feels softer and more controlled. The difference here is that the undamped bat responds to input in a much more violent manner which the body perceives as harshness. Slow down, control, or even eliminate this response, and the system feels much better.

It could be theorized from this that an infinitely stiff aluminum frame would feel great since it cannot flex and therefore cannot respond. As stiffness increases, the frequency/magnitude of the response can become more "harsh" in perception. Since infinite stiffness is not practical, the solution is to damp the material with some other material

Steel is far more damped when relaxing from high loads. Titanium is very well damped, and carbon fiber is extremely well damped by virtue of its non-homogeneous build-up. This is well documented in the bicycle world. There are light years ahead of motorcycles in their knowledge and ability to tune a machine through frame geometry and material.

Strength is not really the issue here, flex is not directly the issue here; the issue, in my opinion, is the response of the chassis material to loading. Aluminum responds very poorly.
steed 2.0
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10/29/2012 6:28am Edited Date/Time 10/29/2012 6:29am
I have for a long time the idea for a base frame (vrp new style) That can handle all kinds 2 stroke engines
Base frame concept is Already used by sidecar racing, the only thing holding me back is current economy

for me the only reason to buy a new bike is because frames bent (Never buy an ex prof bike) can't have enough frames lol

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90359349@N00/2809832932/sizes/l/in/photost…
10/29/2012 6:44am Edited Date/Time 10/29/2012 6:47am
slipdog wrote:
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have...
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have the same geometry. All other AF's are way too different geometry and suspension wise than their steel frame counterparts.

Even the steel framed YZ's had smaller forks (46mm open cartridge) and softer springs compared the AF's (48mm closed cartridge).

To say I liked my '02 YZ 250's steel frame better than my '09 CRF 450's aluminum frame doesn't hold water to me because there way too many other variables that make these two bikes different than just the frames.
sorry to pee on the bonfire but the 04's had the 48mm updated forks which have the same seals as the later af models
they dont have the sss spec stuff but a lot better than the early models.....and after riding the steel vs the af 125 back to back in practice sessions the head angle seemed a lot different

i'll have to go for STEEL everytime, i'm riding an 04 yz125 and 250 ive tried later models and every manufacturer but i dont like the added vibration of the alu frame and i find they do break loose easier on turn in and under load....and i can't get on with the 4pigs even though i am probably going faster i get bored and loose the will to ride.....+ the thought if it does go bang is too much for me Smile

did anyone have the misfortune to have a 98cr125? man that thing handled so badly... way rigid after riding an 07 which was an awesome bike i couldn't believe how badly they f'd it up lol
steed 2.0
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10/29/2012 7:02am
steel vs alu vs other alloys they all have their pros and cons

Deltabox is a Road (Race) frame !

slipdog
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10/29/2012 7:32am
slipdog wrote:
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have...
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have the same geometry. All other AF's are way too different geometry and suspension wise than their steel frame counterparts.

Even the steel framed YZ's had smaller forks (46mm open cartridge) and softer springs compared the AF's (48mm closed cartridge).

To say I liked my '02 YZ 250's steel frame better than my '09 CRF 450's aluminum frame doesn't hold water to me because there way too many other variables that make these two bikes different than just the frames.
sorry to pee on the bonfire but the 04's had the 48mm updated forks which have the same seals as the later af models they dont...
sorry to pee on the bonfire but the 04's had the 48mm updated forks which have the same seals as the later af models
they dont have the sss spec stuff but a lot better than the early models.....and after riding the steel vs the af 125 back to back in practice sessions the head angle seemed a lot different

i'll have to go for STEEL everytime, i'm riding an 04 yz125 and 250 ive tried later models and every manufacturer but i dont like the added vibration of the alu frame and i find they do break loose easier on turn in and under load....and i can't get on with the 4pigs even though i am probably going faster i get bored and loose the will to ride.....+ the thought if it does go bang is too much for me Smile

did anyone have the misfortune to have a 98cr125? man that thing handled so badly... way rigid after riding an 07 which was an awesome bike i couldn't believe how badly they f'd it up lol
I do know the '04's went to 48mm, and I'm kind of suprised you're only the second person to point that out so far.I was just trying to make the point(without being too anal) that other than the YZ's, most people will compare two totally different bikes to say which frame they like better.

Someone else has already said that they feel the AF YZ's were the best after having several. I personally feel the '04's were the best, not because of the steel frame so much, but because I feel the stock suspension set up was so good that it's the only bike I felt I could race without needing a revalve. I still have my '02 Yz's and they work great, but after getting the right suspension set up, all my YZ-F's and CRF's have felt just as good. Most people would call me crazy, but my '03 YZ450 is still on of my favorite bikes. Smile
10/29/2012 7:52am
thats cool dude sorry for being anal myself Smile
i think i'm going to stick with my steal arsenal for now .... never felt any extra benefit from an af model and even the kx with its steel perimeter frame is better IMHO
10/29/2012 1:41pm
slipdog wrote:
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have...
My opinion is the only bikes the average person could try and compare would be the '02-'04 YZ's and '05+ YZ's because I believe they have the same geometry. All other AF's are way too different geometry and suspension wise than their steel frame counterparts.

Even the steel framed YZ's had smaller forks (46mm open cartridge) and softer springs compared the AF's (48mm closed cartridge).

To say I liked my '02 YZ 250's steel frame better than my '09 CRF 450's aluminum frame doesn't hold water to me because there way too many other variables that make these two bikes different than just the frames.
sorry to pee on the bonfire but the 04's had the 48mm updated forks which have the same seals as the later af models they dont...
sorry to pee on the bonfire but the 04's had the 48mm updated forks which have the same seals as the later af models
they dont have the sss spec stuff but a lot better than the early models.....and after riding the steel vs the af 125 back to back in practice sessions the head angle seemed a lot different

i'll have to go for STEEL everytime, i'm riding an 04 yz125 and 250 ive tried later models and every manufacturer but i dont like the added vibration of the alu frame and i find they do break loose easier on turn in and under load....and i can't get on with the 4pigs even though i am probably going faster i get bored and loose the will to ride.....+ the thought if it does go bang is too much for me Smile

did anyone have the misfortune to have a 98cr125? man that thing handled so badly... way rigid after riding an 07 which was an awesome bike i couldn't believe how badly they f'd it up lol
slipdog wrote:
I do know the '04's went to 48mm, and I'm kind of suprised you're only the second person to point that out so far.I was just...
I do know the '04's went to 48mm, and I'm kind of suprised you're only the second person to point that out so far.I was just trying to make the point(without being too anal) that other than the YZ's, most people will compare two totally different bikes to say which frame they like better.

Someone else has already said that they feel the AF YZ's were the best after having several. I personally feel the '04's were the best, not because of the steel frame so much, but because I feel the stock suspension set up was so good that it's the only bike I felt I could race without needing a revalve. I still have my '02 Yz's and they work great, but after getting the right suspension set up, all my YZ-F's and CRF's have felt just as good. Most people would call me crazy, but my '03 YZ450 is still on of my favorite bikes. Smile
ha, I thought I was the only freak that still digs the 03-05 yz450's, I just picked up an 04 the other day as a loaner or back up to my 350.
JW381
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10/29/2012 2:10pm
Good thread topic, here's my $.02.

My first bike was a '98 RM125. I only ever rode the sand in it, but I (as well as my uncle who's been riding for years) thought it was a phenomenally turning bike. Had a nice plush softness to it.

My next bike was an '04 YZ250F. I pretty much hated this thing. Not sure if it was the suspension, the frame, the motor, or the carb tubing, but it was just not a good feeling bike. Didn't turn well, and it would swap anytime I came up short on a jump.

Then I went to the '06 YZ250F and liked that a helluva lot better. Turned better and tracked straighter.

My '09 YZ250 was still pretty solid, but I felt this bike was too rigid and didn't turn all that well. Coulda been tire choice, but stock suspension on that bike never really made me feel like I could point and shoot for my skill level.

My '04 CR250 turns amazingly and tracks real well, for the most part. Probably my favorite handling bike on the list.

Point being, I've rode a few of each, and I think there's too many other variables at play to give a real good assessment.
Derpin' DJ
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10/29/2012 2:29pm
Similarly, I've owned an 05 yz250f, and ridden an 07. I found that the 07 handled much better. I had the suspension properly tuned on the 05, but the stock stuff on the 07 felt much more forgiving, and it turned a shitload better. Heck, even my dads 07 wr450 turned better. The motor on the 07 felt pretty weak compared to the 05 though.

Still, that might just be a geometry thing. I don't think I'm fast enough to notice a difference between the two materials
JW381
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10/29/2012 2:56pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Similarly, I've owned an 05 yz250f, and ridden an 07. I found that the 07 handled much better. I had the suspension properly tuned on the...
Similarly, I've owned an 05 yz250f, and ridden an 07. I found that the 07 handled much better. I had the suspension properly tuned on the 05, but the stock stuff on the 07 felt much more forgiving, and it turned a shitload better. Heck, even my dads 07 wr450 turned better. The motor on the 07 felt pretty weak compared to the 05 though.

Still, that might just be a geometry thing. I don't think I'm fast enough to notice a difference between the two materials
I feel you there, I'm just not sure what it was about those '03-'05 YZ250F's but mine felt like a big tub of shit when riding it.
10/29/2012 6:18pm
do they sell a lengthened 450 gp swingarm in europe?
Hank_Thrill
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10/29/2012 7:41pm
On the subject of flex, has anybody noticed on that Kawasaki KXF commercial the fork flex when the rider lands off that pretty huge jump? It's filmed with one of those 1000fps cameras. I watched a youtube video of the same commercial but it is not as noticeable as watching it on a hi-def television. It's not to say those forks are bad or anything, it's just absolutely amazing what those cameras can pick up!
10/29/2012 9:54pm
On the subject of flex, has anybody noticed on that Kawasaki KXF commercial the fork flex when the rider lands off that pretty huge jump? It's...
On the subject of flex, has anybody noticed on that Kawasaki KXF commercial the fork flex when the rider lands off that pretty huge jump? It's filmed with one of those 1000fps cameras. I watched a youtube video of the same commercial but it is not as noticeable as watching it on a hi-def television. It's not to say those forks are bad or anything, it's just absolutely amazing what those cameras can pick up!
There was a side view pic a few years back of a rider (I think it was Bubba) landing from a huge jump. The shot was taken at just the right time, and the forks looked like they would be more at home on a chopper. There was a very obvious bend in them.
Lightning78
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10/29/2012 10:32pm
zookie wrote:
No. Aluminum can be very elastic or not, depending on its allow or treatment. Also, your modulus quotations are dependent on the alloy and treatment of...
No. Aluminum can be very elastic or not, depending on its allow or treatment. Also, your modulus quotations are dependent on the alloy and treatment of each of the materials.

Now for what I am pretty sure is actually going on with aluminum frames:

Aluminum "feels" rigid because it responds very violently to violent input. Aluminum does not have a very well damped response while relaxing from a situation in which it flexes from a load. The resulting response is vibration that is perceived as harshness by the rider. This phenomenon is not unknown to the automotive and bicycles worlds. Noise, vibration, and harshness engineering is a huge topic in the automotive environment as we realize how important it is to control system response as a method with which to achieve perceived comfort from the occupants of a vehicle.

An aluminum baseball bat is a wonderful example. Take two bats, same strength. One is aluminum, one is aluminum filled with a damping material. Which one feels crappy, which one feels better? The crappy one feels stiff, as if the force of the ball is being transmitted to your hands. The damped one feels softer and more controlled. The difference here is that the undamped bat responds to input in a much more violent manner which the body perceives as harshness. Slow down, control, or even eliminate this response, and the system feels much better.

It could be theorized from this that an infinitely stiff aluminum frame would feel great since it cannot flex and therefore cannot respond. As stiffness increases, the frequency/magnitude of the response can become more "harsh" in perception. Since infinite stiffness is not practical, the solution is to damp the material with some other material

Steel is far more damped when relaxing from high loads. Titanium is very well damped, and carbon fiber is extremely well damped by virtue of its non-homogeneous build-up. This is well documented in the bicycle world. There are light years ahead of motorcycles in their knowledge and ability to tune a machine through frame geometry and material.

Strength is not really the issue here, flex is not directly the issue here; the issue, in my opinion, is the response of the chassis material to loading. Aluminum responds very poorly.
Nailed it DEAD ON........ Ive gotten off Aluminium and to me there is a big difference, personally I like it much better because of how it responds to impact loading. Steel is smoother and doesnt transmit the quick "snap" feeling you get from an Aluminium framed bike, kinda like a jolt of static electricity and I can feel every pebble on a track, steel framed RM's I ride are much more pleasant than any aluminum frame bike ive ridden and ive ridder a lot of different aluminum bikes they all had the same jolt to them like I said, it happens quick then the suspension kicks in but that split second the frame tries to reflex is very noticeable to me and feeling it happening hundreds if not thousands of times per lap got old.

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