Frame preference: aluminum or steel?

zookie
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zookie 10/30/2012 2:14pm
10/30/2012 2:14pm
Lightning78 wrote:
Nailed it DEAD ON........ Ive gotten off Aluminium and to me there is a big difference, personally I like it much better because of how it...
Nailed it DEAD ON........ Ive gotten off Aluminium and to me there is a big difference, personally I like it much better because of how it responds to impact loading. Steel is smoother and doesnt transmit the quick "snap" feeling you get from an Aluminium framed bike, kinda like a jolt of static electricity and I can feel every pebble on a track, steel framed RM's I ride are much more pleasant than any aluminum frame bike ive ridden and ive ridder a lot of different aluminum bikes they all had the same jolt to them like I said, it happens quick then the suspension kicks in but that split second the frame tries to reflex is very noticeable to me and feeling it happening hundreds if not thousands of times per lap got old.
Yup. I guess you make my explanation much more simple.

It isn't the strength/stiffness of aluminum that makes it feel poor, it is the speed/magnitude/frequency of its response to input loads. Damp the response and aluminum would feel great. Carbon fiber strips bonded to the spars *might* help here....maybe time to start fabricating Smile .
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Lightning78 10/30/2012 3:24pm
10/30/2012 3:24pm
zookie wrote:
Yup. I guess you make my explanation much more simple. It isn't the strength/stiffness of aluminum that makes it feel poor, it is the speed/magnitude/frequency of...
Yup. I guess you make my explanation much more simple.

It isn't the strength/stiffness of aluminum that makes it feel poor, it is the speed/magnitude/frequency of its response to input loads. Damp the response and aluminum would feel great. Carbon fiber strips bonded to the spars *might* help here....maybe time to start fabricating Smile .
I thought that was the easiest in laymans terms ...... Does anyone remember when people were filling the 97CR's with expanding foam? Supposedly it worked great then the idea disappeared, THAT MIGHT actually help, its worth a shot and seems like it could work well in theory.
Lightning78
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Lightning78 10/30/2012 3:29pm
10/30/2012 3:29pm
Maybe its a harmonic vibration shock when the impact load hits? Like a violent snap of quick vibration where the frame pulls and responds so quick it snaps back to the rider......like how an aluminum bat rapes your hands, its the same kind of deal like you mentioned.
zookie
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zookie 10/30/2012 8:24pm
10/30/2012 8:24pm
Lightning78 wrote:
I thought that was the easiest in laymans terms ...... Does anyone remember when people were filling the 97CR's with expanding foam? Supposedly it worked great...
I thought that was the easiest in laymans terms ...... Does anyone remember when people were filling the 97CR's with expanding foam? Supposedly it worked great then the idea disappeared, THAT MIGHT actually help, its worth a shot and seems like it could work well in theory.
Need to make sure you use a urethane foam that will actually harden in a cavity.

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zookie
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zookie 10/30/2012 8:26pm
10/30/2012 8:26pm
Lightning78 wrote:
Maybe its a harmonic vibration shock when the impact load hits? Like a violent snap of quick vibration where the frame pulls and responds so quick...
Maybe its a harmonic vibration shock when the impact load hits? Like a violent snap of quick vibration where the frame pulls and responds so quick it snaps back to the rider......like how an aluminum bat rapes your hands, its the same kind of deal like you mentioned.
The baseball bat is an analogy that I mentioned in my original post. This is not a stiff/flexible thing at all. The OEMs have been fudging with stiffness for 15 years now and still cant get it "right". They need to take their eyes off stiffness as the cause of the complaints and they need to focus on how the entire chassis system responds to being unloaded.
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Matt Fisher 10/30/2012 8:29pm
10/30/2012 8:29pm
Lightning78 wrote:
I thought that was the easiest in laymans terms ...... Does anyone remember when people were filling the 97CR's with expanding foam? Supposedly it worked great...
I thought that was the easiest in laymans terms ...... Does anyone remember when people were filling the 97CR's with expanding foam? Supposedly it worked great then the idea disappeared, THAT MIGHT actually help, its worth a shot and seems like it could work well in theory.
zookie wrote:
Need to make sure you use a urethane foam that will actually harden in a cavity.
Wouldn't the Great Stuff expanding foam be a possibility?
newmann
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newmann 10/30/2012 9:03pm
10/30/2012 9:03pm
Matt Fisher wrote:
Wouldn't the Great Stuff expanding foam be a possibility?
Careful there. Great Stuff is an expanding foam, but when it hardens, it is quite rigid. Last thing you want to do is stiffen up an already stiff frame spar. Also you need to be careful how much material you inject into a limited space. Different foams expand more than others. There are a whole lot of foams being used in autos today to control noise, vibration and harshness. Structural foams to reinforce and stiffen critical crush zones, rigid foams to stiffen pillar posts and certain cavities as well as soft flexible foams to control vibrations and dampen flutter between reinforced panels such as hoods, trunk lids and outer door and roof skins. Everybody wants a quiet safe ride and they are loading cars with a shit ton of material to give it to you. No doubt in my mind that I could screw your aluminum frame up to no end with some of the stuff we use. No doubt I could probably make it better as well.
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steed 2.0 10/31/2012 6:19am
10/31/2012 6:19am Edited Date/Time 10/31/2012 7:52am
Matt Fisher wrote:
Wouldn't the Great Stuff expanding foam be a possibility?
newmann wrote:
Careful there. Great Stuff is an expanding foam, but when it hardens, it is quite rigid. Last thing you want to do is stiffen up an...
Careful there. Great Stuff is an expanding foam, but when it hardens, it is quite rigid. Last thing you want to do is stiffen up an already stiff frame spar. Also you need to be careful how much material you inject into a limited space. Different foams expand more than others. There are a whole lot of foams being used in autos today to control noise, vibration and harshness. Structural foams to reinforce and stiffen critical crush zones, rigid foams to stiffen pillar posts and certain cavities as well as soft flexible foams to control vibrations and dampen flutter between reinforced panels such as hoods, trunk lids and outer door and roof skins. Everybody wants a quiet safe ride and they are loading cars with a shit ton of material to give it to you. No doubt in my mind that I could screw your aluminum frame up to no end with some of the stuff we use. No doubt I could probably make it better as well.
Audi uses lightweight materials and different types aluminum alloys for the body, result really stiff body
certainly an advantage in corners
Disadvantage vibrations under certain rpm's, mounting good tires ( Michelin ) reduces vibrations by 99%
To control noise Audi uses active noise control by car audio, multitronic (CVT) transmission reduce noise and low Fuel Consumption as well
Down side speed counter shows 100mph but It feels like 60mph, speed tickets on regular basis lol

Back on topic

I've sold a KTM 09 with 7 hours on the clock never liked it, the older frames were even worse
Having said that, the 11 and current frames are really good, all are steel but different design

using more than one type of aluminum alloys (with their own characteristic features) and complex cast shapes in a frame doesn't need to be a disadvantage

long story short, frame design is key and cost-effective production process certainly played a role as well
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OriolMassot 10/31/2012 7:43am
10/31/2012 7:43am
What if we agree that "flexible frame" is a piece of the whole suspension set? If everybody complains about how rigid is an aluminum frame, then we should say that for soft terrains like sand and mud it would be better a less flexible frame like aluminum, and for harder terrains, a steel frame?
reded
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reded 10/31/2012 8:14am
10/31/2012 8:14am
Hank_Thrill wrote:
On the subject of flex, has anybody noticed on that Kawasaki KXF commercial the fork flex when the rider lands off that pretty huge jump? It's...
On the subject of flex, has anybody noticed on that Kawasaki KXF commercial the fork flex when the rider lands off that pretty huge jump? It's filmed with one of those 1000fps cameras. I watched a youtube video of the same commercial but it is not as noticeable as watching it on a hi-def television. It's not to say those forks are bad or anything, it's just absolutely amazing what those cameras can pick up!
Matt Fisher wrote:
There was a side view pic a few years back of a rider (I think it was Bubba) landing from a huge jump. The shot was...
There was a side view pic a few years back of a rider (I think it was Bubba) landing from a huge jump. The shot was taken at just the right time, and the forks looked like they would be more at home on a chopper. There was a very obvious bend in them.
These are the two most recent examples that I recall.



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zookie
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zookie 10/31/2012 10:17am
10/31/2012 10:17am
Matt Fisher wrote:
Wouldn't the Great Stuff expanding foam be a possibility?
Great stuff needs air to harden. You want a two part urethane structural damping foam. These foams are prevalent throughout the automotive body world. big $$$$ for the material and the tool to apply them.

I think a set of carbon strips bonded to the inside of the frame spars could make a big difference. I would love to do a double blind test with identical bikes and very good riders. Would also be interesting to get some data from the frames in the form of strain gauge response of the feedback.
zookie
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zookie 10/31/2012 10:18am
10/31/2012 10:18am
OriolMassot wrote:
What if we agree that "flexible frame" is a piece of the whole suspension set? If everybody complains about how rigid is an aluminum frame, then...
What if we agree that "flexible frame" is a piece of the whole suspension set? If everybody complains about how rigid is an aluminum frame, then we should say that for soft terrains like sand and mud it would be better a less flexible frame like aluminum, and for harder terrains, a steel frame?
If a flexible frame is part of the whole suspension set then its response must be damped and controlled. When suspension is harsh it is either too "fast" or too stiff. Efforts to make frames softer have not removed the harshness. Their response is too fast, un-damped.
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bangmyhead 10/31/2012 10:33am
10/31/2012 10:33am
I dig my steel frame, but love my aluminum frame (maybe the efi on the aluminum makes it a biased opinion)
steed 2.0
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steed 2.0 10/31/2012 11:39am
10/31/2012 11:39am
OriolMassot wrote:
What if we agree that "flexible frame" is a piece of the whole suspension set? If everybody complains about how rigid is an aluminum frame, then...
What if we agree that "flexible frame" is a piece of the whole suspension set? If everybody complains about how rigid is an aluminum frame, then we should say that for soft terrains like sand and mud it would be better a less flexible frame like aluminum, and for harder terrains, a steel frame?
zookie wrote:
If a flexible frame is part of the whole suspension set then its response must be damped and controlled. When suspension is harsh it is either...
If a flexible frame is part of the whole suspension set then its response must be damped and controlled. When suspension is harsh it is either too "fast" or too stiff. Efforts to make frames softer have not removed the harshness. Their response is too fast, un-damped.
mxlarge interview with Max Nagl where they talk about steel vs. aluminum also sand vs hardpack
I know all the riders play the same tune their new bike is the best ever ridden, doesn't sound too biased at least for me

for non Euros 3:50 min http://www.mxlarge.com/interview/7207-max-nagl-interview-mxon-and-honda
zookie
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zookie 10/31/2012 1:39pm
10/31/2012 1:39pm
steed 2.0 wrote:
mxlarge interview with Max Nagl where they talk about steel vs. aluminum also sand vs hardpack I know all the riders play the same tune their...
mxlarge interview with Max Nagl where they talk about steel vs. aluminum also sand vs hardpack
I know all the riders play the same tune their new bike is the best ever ridden, doesn't sound too biased at least for me

for non Euros 3:50 min http://www.mxlarge.com/interview/7207-max-nagl-interview-mxon-and-honda
Didn't read the interview but I have some strong opinions on tests that are not double blind.

Basically I think there is a tremendous psychological effect that fancy parts and new bikes have on riders. I am not saying the bike he is on is not good, but I would really like to see test results backed up with actually engineering data and double blind results.
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steed 2.0 10/31/2012 1:57pm
10/31/2012 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 10/31/2012 2:04pm
zookie wrote:
Didn't read the interview but I have some strong opinions on tests that are not double blind. Basically I think there is a tremendous psychological effect...
Didn't read the interview but I have some strong opinions on tests that are not double blind.

Basically I think there is a tremendous psychological effect that fancy parts and new bikes have on riders. I am not saying the bike he is on is not good, but I would really like to see test results backed up with actually engineering data and double blind results.
you don't need to read it , just listen like an audio book Smile

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