how many seconds can you shave off

BobbyM
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Edited Date/Time 8/20/2012 2:28pm
a lap with real "factory werx" suspension? no matter what anybody, thinks factory springs are infinetly better than modified stockers
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tobz
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8/19/2012 4:32pm
Simply an opinion from someone that knows nothing (like most of us!) but i was under the impression that factory suspension wasn't as big of a gap in performance as what it was many years ago, the major difference that costs time is late in the moto when heat causes the suspension to fade.
Regis
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Fantasy
8/19/2012 4:33pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2012 4:35pm
I don't think its much, if any.

I don't think you can grab a 10th-15th place guy and see his results drastically change if at all, given a factory bike.

The resources to make the bike to suit you and the ability to put time into yourself is what makes a factory ride. (IMO) But you still have to be a supremely skilled rider to know what you want to go faster and be able to test very well.

I don't think a rider like Alessi would do any better given factory stuff
ocscottie
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8/19/2012 4:39pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2012 4:40pm
BobbyM wrote:
a lap with real "factory werx" suspension? no matter what anybody, thinks factory springs are infinetly better than modified stockers
"...factory springs..."

Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory air" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs Laughing

...and just a guess, but i bet a factory "tranny" would make more of a difference.
Skip376
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8/19/2012 4:41pm
Seems Alessi is no better or worse than when he had factory support. Makes me wonder how well he was/is at setting up a bike.

The Shop

Skip376
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8/19/2012 4:42pm
BobbyM wrote:
a lap with real "factory werx" suspension? no matter what anybody, thinks factory springs are infinetly better than modified stockers
ocscottie wrote:
[i]"...factory springs..."[/i] Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory [i]air[/i]" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs :laugh: ...and just a...
"...factory springs..."

Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory air" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs Laughing

...and just a guess, but i bet a factory "tranny" would make more of a difference.
If your into things like trannys....
ocscottie
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8/19/2012 4:43pm
HAR! i was waiting for that one Skip, left the door wide open Blink
8/19/2012 4:44pm
I would like to know this question, but rephrased to:

"How many seconds do you think you can shave off with a lap with a real suspension guru on your side? no matter what anybody, thinks a really good suspension tuner and lots of testing are infinetly better than running the same valving at every track and having a bit of a play with the clickers"
Skip376
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8/19/2012 4:45pm
ocscottie wrote:
HAR! i was waiting for that one Skip, left the door wide open Blink
Sorry I couldn't help myself.
machine
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8/19/2012 4:45pm
His dad was talking about how his stock shock would start to fade about 15 minutes into the motos. I believe him on that.
plowboy
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8/19/2012 4:56pm
BobbyM wrote:
a lap with real "factory werx" suspension? no matter what anybody, thinks factory springs are infinetly better than modified stockers
Bobby speaks the truth. There's good and then there's "factory". I've spent not a small amount of money getting my suspension "done". It was light years better than stock but never as good as the guy who had a "tuner" at the track. In the old days it was a Japanese fellow in a white lab coat...nowadays it's probably some tatooed love child but the results are still better than "we revalved it" from some mail order place. As always, suspension is a science and some teams just have better egg heads than others.
8/19/2012 5:01pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2012 5:01pm
Put RV, Dungey, Reed, Stewart, and Alessi all on the same bike, and Alessi is still going to finish behind the fab four.

Dungey is not beating Alessi because Alessi is on inferior equipment. Dungey is beating Alessi because Alessi is an inferior rider to Dungey.
MX558
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8/19/2012 5:05pm
Skip376 wrote:
Seems Alessi is no better or worse than when he had factory support. Makes me wonder how well he was/is at setting up a bike.
Goose has in interviews he's not the best at set up for sure. If you can't set up a bike at that level you can't win.
8/19/2012 5:17pm
The way I have always seen it is if your suspension gives you a 2% advantage per lap in energy savings and performance/riding ability at the end of a 15 lap moto it's 30% savings across the board over the first guy not to have it. The small stuff adds up after 35 minutes.

This example does not also imply that Alessi would be up with Ryan if he had better equipment. There comes a point along the chart where a riders ability will no longer allow him to go faster than what he is capable of good parts or not.
mauidex
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8/19/2012 5:28pm
Put RV, Dungey, Reed, Stewart, and Alessi all on the same bike, and Alessi is still going to finish behind the fab four. Dungey is not...
Put RV, Dungey, Reed, Stewart, and Alessi all on the same bike, and Alessi is still going to finish behind the fab four.

Dungey is not beating Alessi because Alessi is on inferior equipment. Dungey is beating Alessi because Alessi is an inferior rider to Dungey.
this is the answer.............Team Alessi needs to savor this year as it will NEVER happen again.........check back with me at the end of 2013 MX season............

too many younger guys with speed and $$$$ behind them...........Mike has done an INCREDIBLE series and major major props...........however the planets have lined up for that to happen..............

there will be other satellite team wins and championships, but not without support and equipment from the mother ship........this type of program is a freak and maybe MC needs to try and work with someone for 2013 instead of being a rebel..........

it's OK if you want to do it your way, and OK to throw up the middle finger, BUT you ain't gonna win.............if that's what you are after..........

I'd be really really surprised if this scenario with MC/Alessi will ever happen again.........so this season for them is one for the record books..........all IMO, but history leads me to believe this........
BMP63
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8/19/2012 5:38pm
I think the OP made a topic about suspension, not Alessi...Whistling
8/19/2012 5:42pm
motokiwi wrote:
I would like to know this question, but rephrased to: "How many seconds do you think you can shave off with a lap with a [b]real...
I would like to know this question, but rephrased to:

"How many seconds do you think you can shave off with a lap with a real suspension guru on your side? no matter what anybody, thinks a really good suspension tuner and lots of testing are infinetly better than running the same valving at every track and having a bit of a play with the clickers"
Ask Philthy Phil......apparently his tuner Paul Bruno is one of the best in the business...
MCfan4life
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8/19/2012 5:44pm
ocscottie wrote:
[i]"...factory springs..."[/i] Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory [i]air[/i]" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs :laugh: ...and just a...
"...factory springs..."

Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory air" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs Laughing

...and just a guess, but i bet a factory "tranny" would make more of a difference.
Factory Tranny? Huh

8/19/2012 5:51pm
BMP63 wrote:
I think the OP made a topic about suspension, not Alessi...Whistling
Believe me, the OP had everything to do with Alessi.
dboivin
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8/19/2012 5:56pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2012 5:56pm
BMP63 wrote:
I think the OP made a topic about suspension, not Alessi...Whistling
Believe me, the OP had everything to do with Alessi.
^^^^ bobby hangs from the alessi **ts












bobby so gonna hate on me now.
Katoom72
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8/19/2012 6:00pm
ocscottie wrote:
HAR! i was waiting for that one Skip, left the door wide open Blink
Tranny's might like that wide open door. Unsure
gspointer
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8/19/2012 6:21pm
Factory suspension is worth 8.4920428 seconds per lap, and a tranny just blows!
seth505
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8/19/2012 8:15pm
0.05 seconds
8/19/2012 10:53pm
BobbyM wrote:
a lap with real "factory werx" suspension? no matter what anybody, thinks factory springs are infinetly better than modified stockers
Your really trying to get Alessi on par with Dungey?
IMHO he would be a lot closer to Dungey with factory suspension. Watching Southwick 2nd moto it looked like Mike was really struggling with his setup.
julienmark
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8/19/2012 11:44pm
ocscottie wrote:
[i]"...factory springs..."[/i] Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory [i]air[/i]" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs :laugh: ...and just a...
"...factory springs..."

Try and keep up Bob, its now "factory air" (at least for some) they have done away w/ the springs Laughing

...and just a guess, but i bet a factory "tranny" would make more of a difference.
MCfan4life wrote:
Factory Tranny? :huh: [img]http://s4.hubimg.com/u/452319_f520.jpg[/img]
Factory Tranny? Huh

Dark room, lots of Vody and red bull, some Disco bikkies and ill have her, him, it, whatever, im in.
Lowlander
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8/20/2012 1:34am
Having tried B kit on a UK team bike in 07 I can say it is worth quite a bit.

The suspension was set up for a pro about 150lbs. I was around 175lbs at this point. Now I am sure it is not just that it was b kit but also the depth of testing on the settings that made it feel so good.

I was on average 3 seconds a lap faster on a track that I know like the back of my hand. I had 8 laps at race pace. His lap times were in the low 1:50's and mine were 2:02/03 average on my bike. On his bike which was his practice bike and wasn't in that high state of tune and to be honest was no quicker than mine power wise.

What I did notice about the suspension was that it was a little stiffer initially but the faster you hit the bumps the better it absorbed them. Over jumping never ever transmitted to harsh landings and the shock tracked very very well over acceleration and braking bumps. I had a little understeer on the front end which I would take was the sag settings and the fact the springs were a little soft for my weight. I think with stiffer springs it would have been even plusher and I could have taken 10cc out of the fork oil level to make it even plusher.

Now I went on that bike with an open mind and never expected anything. I was surprised. Would I buy a set, no?. To much money for a club rider. But if money was no object I would certainly buy some and test with a tuner and find the best settings I could. I do think that the big tuners out there can give you suspension very close to B kit without the price tag though.
BobbyM
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8/20/2012 5:47am
well then yer a dumbass. susp tech can only do so much with stock stuff. this is not about alessi beating ryan..dungey is an animal and is the best in the world...i.dont give a shit who is hurt or not.
p
several of my "pro-bros" and top mx mechanics have told me there is no comparison. the action and reaction with werx stuff is better all the way around. the confidence it gives you alone is good for 1-2 secs a lap.

go deeper.

farther...faster...higher and longer more easily

now if yer main competitor is 1-2 seconds a lap faster than you is it not reasonable to believe that werx stuff will help eliminate or at least reduce that gap a bit?
jleews6
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8/20/2012 5:48am
I don't think it's just the factory suspension alone that's better but I do think it's a combination of the suspension,the factory mechanic and the amount of testing that the factory teams can do.
LoudLove
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8/20/2012 5:51am
There's the question: which has greater value in lowering laps times, factory hard parts, or factory technical support? Taking that one step further, can all the factory goodies significantly help the rider who has difficulty translating what happens on the track to his techs?
Regis
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8/20/2012 6:00am
Some of these answers are killing me


2% a lap in energy savings? really?


I can GAURANTEE that I can give anybody on this board a shock that looks trick, anodized and all. Tell you it is a "b" kit (or whatever you call it) and have you test it back to back with a very good stock revolved shock and you would swear it was better, even if it was the same exact shock.


It's mental. except for the top 5% in the sport
Regis
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8/20/2012 6:01am
LoudLove wrote:
There's the question: which has greater value in lowering laps times, factory hard parts, or factory technical support? Taking that one step further, can all the...
There's the question: which has greater value in lowering laps times, factory hard parts, or factory technical support? Taking that one step further, can all the factory goodies significantly help the rider who has difficulty translating what happens on the track to his techs?
^^^^this.

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