Is the KTM that much improved?

Edited Date/Time 6/26/2012 7:44pm
The perception is, the new KTM450 is a great bike on par with all the Japanese bikes because finally in the US, a rider is able to win races on it consistently.

But, if you look north of the border, a guy who was winning by 20 seconds every moto on the controversial YZ450 a year ago is struggling to podium every weekend on the KTM. His teammate, the guy who got 2nd nearly every moto a year ago on a YZ450 as well, is struggling as well.

Is the KTM Dungey is riding anything like a production bike at all? Has the KTM production bike not made the big improvements? Or is Dungey just THAT good?

Discuss.
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Faceaz
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6/23/2012 10:38pm
I believe the Dungey replica is only in the states, not imported to Canada & to my knowledge they are not riding it.
6/23/2012 11:37pm
I was also under the impression that they were pretty impossible to get out of the US. That said, I would never buy a bike that was rushed out in a small quantity, better to just wait a year or two till they get the kinks worked out
Allracing
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6/24/2012 12:38am
I don't know if the Dungey replica bike is that good, but Dungey's personal factory bike is looking really good with all of the work him and Roger are putting in and getting that thing dialed perfectly to Dungey.

Factory bikes are all about custom fitting the bike to that rider, and no one else. If you hear magazine editors talk about factory bikes they've ridden in the past of Carmichael's, McGrath, Windham, etc. They say that they are not really great to ride because most "mortals" can't push a bike to those limits to make the bike excel like it should.

The Stewart Yamaha/Suzuki deal is a classic example of a bike not fitting a rider, but works for other people really well.
Deetsmx
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6/24/2012 12:50am
Allracing wrote:
I don't know if the Dungey replica bike is that good, but Dungey's personal factory bike is looking really good with all of the work him...
I don't know if the Dungey replica bike is that good, but Dungey's personal factory bike is looking really good with all of the work him and Roger are putting in and getting that thing dialed perfectly to Dungey.

Factory bikes are all about custom fitting the bike to that rider, and no one else. If you hear magazine editors talk about factory bikes they've ridden in the past of Carmichael's, McGrath, Windham, etc. They say that they are not really great to ride because most "mortals" can't push a bike to those limits to make the bike excel like it should.

The Stewart Yamaha/Suzuki deal is a classic example of a bike not fitting a rider, but works for other people really well.
I've ridden most new bikes for many years and I recently rode the Dungey replica. The bike is that good, probably the best bike I've ever ridden. Feels super planted and really light for a 450 with tons of smooth power. As far as in Canada, they are on old bikes and I think one of the guys is riding with a separated shoulder from the first round.

The Shop

6/24/2012 1:03am Edited Date/Time 6/24/2012 1:19am
Kiniry and Georke are just better this year compared to last year, IMO. Look at Kiniry's results this year in the U.S. Best/most consistent ever for him. New KTM might help but comp is stronger. Facciotti hasn't seen a race since last fall (same w/ Klatt) and he's not 100%.
DrSweden
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6/24/2012 3:40am Edited Date/Time 6/24/2012 3:59am
I don't think there's a correlation between production line and what the factory teams line up on the gate, consider Payton (not even factory) made the less considered 04/05 kx250f a winner. So to make an argument that any production bike is creating winners at the nationals, GPs etc make no sense for me. Then we have the constant discussion in the pits, about the amateurs soon to become pro, or the rest of the heard riding B and even C , while MXA feed and exploit our neurosis with "winners".

Despite where we look I don't consider this debate black & white even when we take the worse spoken of, "the biggest pile of shit for a decade" in the pits, on the forums, the horrible yzf450, the sure reason why Stewart failed, only to see him perform equally poorly on the "superior" rm450z, and even now on the sidelines again (at least that's my view).

There's nothing wrong with the yzf, nor the sxf when put in the right hands, meanwhile every race creates 39 riders looking for an excuse, and every track have these tired, non talented carpenter or office clerks trying to be Dungey while in denial.

Yeah, the YZF sux, or the SXF sux, no linkage, wait... Well the bike sux...
bobby397
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6/24/2012 3:48am
Les smith has been riding the Dungey replica bike in the nationals, results were also better last year on the JGR Yamaha. Also , heard he has been having problems with the clutch and the bike over heating.
Drtbykr
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6/24/2012 7:01am
From a few years ago, I'll guess yes.
easy_e
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6/24/2012 7:08am
Colton facciotti dislocated his shoulder on the first lap of the first moto of the season so until he's back riding 100% healthy it's not a fair comparison to how the ktm is up north. Not sure what the deal is with klatt, he rode around in the first round like he didn't give a shit and was a huge disappointment. Goerke is riding awesome and so is kiniry so the 450 class is not a one rider show anymore. Jeremy medaglia looks good on the ktm 250f this year too which is good to see.
Eywa
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6/24/2012 7:16am Edited Date/Time 6/24/2012 7:18am
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
es337
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6/24/2012 7:23am
Eywa wrote:
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having dominated the gp's since 2010.
kevin204
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6/24/2012 7:24am
All I know is that Klatt has been crashing and stalling the bike a lot, and neither of those guys looks comfortable. I'm sure they'll get it dialed in with more time.
rmpilot
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6/24/2012 7:32am
give those canadians a break they just started practicing for the year. the snow has only been gone a week!
Scott167
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6/24/2012 7:42am
the guys up here are riding the regular 12 bikes. before they had rode the yamahas for 5 straight years and had them dialed in. this year has a much different learning curve. unfortunately our top guy is hurt and kiniry and goerke have really stepped it up.

to answer the original question i think they are much improved but i would say that when they re-did everything for 2011 was the biggest improvement so far. i have yet to ride a 13 bike tho
Madmax31
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6/24/2012 9:03am
The perception is, the new KTM450 is a great bike on par with all the Japanese bikes because finally in the US, a rider is able...
The perception is, the new KTM450 is a great bike on par with all the Japanese bikes because finally in the US, a rider is able to win races on it consistently.

But, if you look north of the border, a guy who was winning by 20 seconds every moto on the controversial YZ450 a year ago is struggling to podium every weekend on the KTM. His teammate, the guy who got 2nd nearly every moto a year ago on a YZ450 as well, is struggling as well.

Is the KTM Dungey is riding anything like a production bike at all? Has the KTM production bike not made the big improvements? Or is Dungey just THAT good?

Discuss.
KTM is as good if not better than any Jap bike, and has been since around 2008.
TDeath21
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6/24/2012 9:17am
Funny how the best bike seems to always be where the best rider is. Those Kawasakis were really good from 97-01, then Honda was the best bike from 02-04, but after that Suzuki was the best bike from 05-07.

90% rider, 10% machine.
PRM31
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6/24/2012 11:00am
Agree this sport much more about the rider than the bike. Having a bike that fits a rider is important of course. I do think KTM has done more to improve their bikes in recent years and it seems to have brought them on par with the Big 4. This latest iteration of their bikes, the "Dungey replica", and presumably now the 2013s appear to be as good as anything out there. Clearly there was a shift in thinking and development style when DeCoster arrived at KTM and it is paying off.
malachi177
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6/24/2012 2:37pm
easy_e wrote:
Colton facciotti dislocated his shoulder on the first lap of the first moto of the season so until he's back riding 100% healthy it's not a...
Colton facciotti dislocated his shoulder on the first lap of the first moto of the season so until he's back riding 100% healthy it's not a fair comparison to how the ktm is up north. Not sure what the deal is with klatt, he rode around in the first round like he didn't give a shit and was a huge disappointment. Goerke is riding awesome and so is kiniry so the 450 class is not a one rider show anymore. Jeremy medaglia looks good on the ktm 250f this year too which is good to see.
correction sir......first lap of the first moto...in the second race of the season! (Kamloops)...Nanaimo was the week before.
Eywa
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6/24/2012 5:57pm
Eywa wrote:
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
es337 wrote:
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having...
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having dominated the gp's since 2010.
You mean they bought rider number 2 and the only reason they are going to get a title is because RV has an knee injury. Not the bike, just some luck.
es337
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6/24/2012 6:21pm
Eywa wrote:
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
es337 wrote:
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having...
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having dominated the gp's since 2010.
Eywa wrote:
You mean they bought rider number 2 and the only reason they are going to get a title is because RV has an knee injury. Not...
You mean they bought rider number 2 and the only reason they are going to get a title is because RV has an knee injury. Not the bike, just some luck.
wow ktm can't catch a break with you. And how else would ktm fill its bikes if it didn't pay their riders, so i'm confused why you emphasize they "bought rider number 2". And it is now being beat to death but rv won supercross due to ryan breaking his collarbone and now the dunge wins outdoors due to rv tearing his acl. Bad luck on both parts.
Tbteam
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6/24/2012 7:05pm
It IS that much improved as soon as you put Dungey on it.
Eywa
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6/24/2012 7:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/24/2012 7:18pm
es337 wrote:
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having...
More like they could not get a quality rider here in the US. Proof being dungey wins his championship on the first try, and ktm having dominated the gp's since 2010.
Eywa wrote:
You mean they bought rider number 2 and the only reason they are going to get a title is because RV has an knee injury. Not...
You mean they bought rider number 2 and the only reason they are going to get a title is because RV has an knee injury. Not the bike, just some luck.
es337 wrote:
wow ktm can't catch a break with you. And how else would ktm fill its bikes if it didn't pay their riders, so i'm confused why...
wow ktm can't catch a break with you. And how else would ktm fill its bikes if it didn't pay their riders, so i'm confused why you emphasize they "bought rider number 2". And it is now being beat to death but rv won supercross due to ryan breaking his collarbone and now the dunge wins outdoors due to rv tearing his acl. Bad luck on both parts.
"ktm cannot catch a break from you" I don't cut them slack or the Japanese. KTM is a newcomer and has to earn a break or earn respect. They have not won a championship yet, unless you are counting your eggs before they are hatched. The wins come from the riders not so much the bike. Roger D even said that most of the percentage comes from the rider and not from the bike.

You are forgetting RV beat RD last MX season. RV has out-ridden RD in MX and SX. This year RV did not even start. Neither did the other fast riders. And we did watch James beat RD at every race until a photographer ran out in front of him. Bad luck, sure, but there was no doubt in my mind that JS7 was faster.

I have watched JS, RV, and CR out ride Dungey. They also had some bad luck but they still were faster in my book. CR is real close. (when I was watching Dungey and Chad battle it out, I was rooting for Dungey but he often lost.)
easy_e
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6/24/2012 7:44pm
malachi177 wrote:
correction sir......first lap of the first moto...in the second race of the season! (Kamloops)...Nanaimo was the week before.
Good call, I forgot about Nanaimo in there.
sharkey
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6/24/2012 7:45pm
this is kind of off topic but about ktms but i was practicing at a local track this weekend when some older guy pulls up to me on a brand spanking new ktm 300 two stroke. i mean this bike was beautiful. i started my bike to get ready to go and i watched him press a button to start it. on a two stroke. i thought that was cool as hell. ktm does have some trick stuff on there bikes. i was looking at a dungey model 450 when i was buying my new 450. pretty cool loooking also
Jay LINY
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6/24/2012 8:18pm
KTM has been making great motocrossers since about 1992.There only problem was being able to pay the right rider and team to win a championship.I would love to see Rv on a Gas Gas or TM or even a Husqvarna MXer, I bet he would still win moto"s, and possably championships.
agn5009
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6/25/2012 12:11am
Eywa wrote:
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
I don't get your resentment with the KTM, it's a trick bike and has already earned much respect in the US. First they began dominating the offroad scene with guys like Kurt Caselli and Charlie Mullins and now they're heading in the right direction by having guys like Dungey, Musquin, and Roczen for MX. Every one of those guys are more than capable of winning motos on the KTM's.
agn5009
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6/25/2012 12:11am
Eywa wrote:
So are we saying KTM sucked for MX/SX up until Dungeys bike? Then you would be saying the KTM "haters" were right up until now.
I don't get your resentment with the KTM, it's a trick bike and has already earned much respect in the US. First they began dominating the offroad scene with guys like Kurt Caselli and Charlie Mullins and now they're heading in the right direction by having guys like Dungey, Musquin, and Roczen for MX. Every one of those guys are more than capable of winning motos on the KTM's.
Shawn142
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6/25/2012 4:58am
A winning rider wins on just about anything. Hire the right guy for a big price tag and people will talk about how amazing your bike must be. Hire some mid-pack dudes and the forum warriors will compare it to a Cannondale.

KTM has won in Europe since they hired the best guy. Now they're winning in the US because they hired one of the best 4 guys who doesn't get hurt often. Go figure. Amazing how that works.
crusher773
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6/26/2012 7:44pm
I was also under the impression that they were pretty impossible to get out of the US. That said, I would never buy a bike that...
I was also under the impression that they were pretty impossible to get out of the US. That said, I would never buy a bike that was rushed out in a small quantity, better to just wait a year or two till they get the kinks worked out
I bought one of the 2005 250s that came out early and it was the best bike I had ever had up until last year when I bought a 350. Yes that frame is way better than it was on the old PDS bikes.

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