Posts
239
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Fairfield, OH, USA
Edited Date/Time
6/8/2012 5:30am
Can someone explain how the AMA rules for Loretta Lynn's work?
From what I found:
http://www.mxsports.com/pages/rules/2012-supplemental-rules-
(section b rule c:
Changes/modifications to the silencer are allowed for the sole purpose of complying with current sound requirements.
Today at the Red Bud Qualifier a rider was docked 26 positons in 250B stock, due to (the best I could figusre out), running an aftermarket silencer.
If you change the silencer (as permitted in the supplemental rules) do you have to have sound testing done to show your stk silencer is too loud and the replacement is legal. There is no sound testing at the track, so do the officials decide by just listening to them. I was there, this 250 did not seem any louder than the rest, hell they are four strokes, they are all loud.
jusrt curious how this rule is interpretted and fairlly enforce.
bruce
From what I found:
http://www.mxsports.com/pages/rules/2012-supplemental-rules-
(section b rule c:
Changes/modifications to the silencer are allowed for the sole purpose of complying with current sound requirements.
Today at the Red Bud Qualifier a rider was docked 26 positons in 250B stock, due to (the best I could figusre out), running an aftermarket silencer.
If you change the silencer (as permitted in the supplemental rules) do you have to have sound testing done to show your stk silencer is too loud and the replacement is legal. There is no sound testing at the track, so do the officials decide by just listening to them. I was there, this 250 did not seem any louder than the rest, hell they are four strokes, they are all loud.
jusrt curious how this rule is interpretted and fairlly enforce.
bruce
I know when I was racing the amateur nats there was no way in a million years that an aftermarket silencer was legal. There was a time when graphics were illegal. The bike had to be "stock in appearance."
Also, this was a referee ruling, not a protest brought on by another rider.
bruce
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Here is the additional info. It was indeed an aftermarket silencer (slip on only). The issue was the "possible" lack of an insert and how it was handled. The rider and dad did not realize they had been docked until the event was over. Apparently it was noticed in impound after moto 3, but nothing was said to the rider or his dad. Later when questioned (and I am not sure who was involved, it was not the rider or his mechanic (dad); an insert was proivided to the referee. I am not sure how much time passed and why the insert was removed from the silencer. The ref admitted it was warm, but looked too new so he did not believe it was used in the bike. Also since it was AFTER the 3rd moto couldn't the bike have stayed at impound?
The ref asked the rider's dad if the bike was below the sound level. The dad sai yes to which he was asked where it was tested, he was relying on the suppport person of the pipe to not provide an illegal pipe. This did not make a difference.
My (better) question is without a proper test (decible reader) at an event how can the ref determine a pipe is illegal? Do we assume a pipe without an insert in automaically illegal?
bruce
bruce
edit: just re-read your last line and we are talking about different riders. My guess is all 3 were penalized for no inserts in an aftermarket exhaust.
Page 175 of the rule book:
o. Changing the specifications of a motorcycle that has
already been admitted for competition and/or
inspected.
They didn't get penalized for the illegal part, they got busted for trying to cover it up. Kinda like Roger Clemens.
but first the disclaimer...I am not in any capacity affiliated with Shane McElrath, his family, or sponsors. I am just a fan who was very impressed with his performance and spent most of my free time (ie the motos that I had no interest in watching) talking with him and his dad.
Shane won the final 250B stk moto and went to the impound area. What I saw: his dad arrived shortly afterwards, congratulated his son, washed his face off, and gave him a bottle of water to drink. Dad asked Daniel Baker about his crash and how he was doing, then proceeded to congratulate Jace Owen and another racer, possibly Josh Osby. The impound ref asked if there were any protestes, etc and released the riders. What I did not see...a race official talking to Shane or his dad.
Also, on the way back to Shanes pits there was no mention by his family of being asked about not having an insert in the silencer.
(I would think they would be concerned that there son was being protested.
Fast forward to after the final race (250B mod), which Shane won completing the sweep. I head over to impound to congratulate Shane on a perfect day, wish him luck at mill creek next week (yes he is racing in his home region after qualifying at Red Bud), and let them know I will see them in August at the ranch.
Now it gets more interesting, Shane's mom sees he is scored 28th for moto 3 of 250B stk and goes to the sign in/awards area. She yells to Shane and his dad. Shanes reply, "Mom, I won that moto..." If the events happened as mentioned above, wouldn't Shane, his dad, and possibly mom already know they were docked a lap. They referred them to Drex. I was there with Shane's dad and this is what I witnessed. Max was told the bikes were observied in impound without inserts in, they were later provided with an insert and asked the person if this insert was used in Shane's bike. As stated in the original post I do not know who had the insert, or why it was not in the silencer at this time, but they told them it was used, but the decision was made that even though it was still warm, it was too new looking to have been used. Next Shane's dad states the bike was legal (sound wise without an insert), Drex asked what it scored to which Shanes dad asked where the sound test area was. The reply was asking if it was tested before arriving at Red Bud. If the events transpired as above, he would know where the sound test area was because that is where they "brought the bikes with inserts in..."
From the reaction of Shane and his parents after finding out he was given 28th place in moto three, it was obvious this was news to them, where if things happened in the order and as listed above, they would have already known his was going to be docked.
bruce
I will never forget in 2009 at the Daytona GNC pro short track when a certain riders exhaust system was deemed illegal, with no more than a visual inspection. And this same system had passed tech at 3 AMA GNC nationals prior to the Daytona race.
It was thoroughly tested and checked during the construction of said pipe, coming in at 102 db. How ironic it was that when a rider crashed later on in the event, and their exhaust was damaged, making the bike clearly louder than the rules permit, it was a non-issue to those same two individuals who DQ's a rider ,on a visual inspection,with nary a test.
I don't give a fuck if it's a straight pipe, open exhaust. If it meets the db levels ,it is legal.
AMA / DMG really needs to get their shit together on this, or drop the sound tests.
Every track holding a LL qualifier is required to have sound testing equipment, as well as understand the use and guidelines in sound testing.
Sounds testing guidelines are set by the AMA, and the responsibility lies with each track to handle the process accurately. We've been testing in Mn for about 7 or 8 years now. Not a perfect science, but if you get educated on the correct way it's pretty straight forward.
One piece of advice for every rider running the qualifier system. Know the rules. If you don't, this could be you.
Isn't it "funny" how people who were supposedly there get it so wrong? I just shake my head when I read stuff like this.
1. they were not told about the silencer in impound.
2.. they were not told to go to a sound check.
3. they did not find out about the penalty until after the final moto of the day.
Shane did not address the issue of someone supposedly providing the ama official an insert for inspection. He was not at this conversation, it was Drex Akin, Shane's dad, a gentleman in a blue AMA shirt, and myself. Drex told us that someone (and i apologize for not paying attention to who) showed them an insert and said it was used by Shane. Again, this is what the race official told Shane's dad...weather the event happened or not, who knows. i am just relaying what was told to Shane's dad by Drex. I know neither Shane nor his dad was approached about the insert.
bruce
1 Sound testing was available at the track, and offered to anyone requesting to be tested.
2 Once testing was completed, the slip on was tagged, taped and initialled as legal for the weekend.
3 There was a 10 minute discussion over the PA system at the track about sound, and stock class rules.
4 There was another discussion at the "mandatory" riders meeting related to sound and stock exhaust.
5 The lack of an insert was identified and logged at the post race impound area.
Pit Row
Now for the rest:
AMA, for the SX series is not AMA Pro Racing. When DMG purchased AMA Pro Racing, the contract for SX was not up yet, with Feld, so Dingman couldn't sell SX to them. During this garage sale, MX, Road Racing, Dirt Track and Supermoto were sold. The disciplines that fell under AMA Amateur Racing were not purchased, as DMG did not want them. These include Hill Climb, GNCC, Speedway, Ice Racing, and Amateur MX...and Scrambles/Enduro.....etc. Also all of the Qualifiers for FIM Championship events, such as ISDE, and all of the FIM licensing and permissions are still handled by AMA in Pickerington.
they are not blaming anyone but themselves though for not looking into the rule deeper and not going to the riders meeting. I never heard any announcement over the PA but I wasn't paying much attention either, I am not saying it wasn't I just didn't hear it, neither did they obviously.
it may have been logged but it was never mentioned to the rider or mechanic in impound. the first they knew of anything was when the official showed up at the trailer a significant time later asking questions.
IMO it's a crappy rule, it's supposed to be a stock class, if one of the manufactures cannot meet dB then they (the manuf. not the buyer) need to change the exhaust system so it will.
I'd have to assume there's a lot more to this situation than we read here.
Hate to see things like this happen, but every year there's some sort of issues related to qualifying with in the rules for LL's. It should have to be so damn complicated, but I guess everything is... Or I'm just getting older and don't comprehend as well as I use too..
I know, to big of a pain, the rule should be changed back to complete stock though IMO. yes I know how much quieter the new Yamaha's are, I like it a lot. I find it hard to believe the new Kawi meet 94 though, loudest bikes out there stock by far.
The problem wasn't with the db rating or sound test. The problem was running a slip on with no insert. That issue was documented at the post race impound area..
There were 3 riders involved. All three were personally spoken with. The referee for the weekend was enforcing the rules, and not a rider protest.
Race results aren't official until posted. When there are discussions based on "possible" rule infractions, no results should be posted until the officials have finished their investigation and made a decision.
bruce
And, yes the reason I am asking is that sc961 has stated "the problem was running a slip on with no insert."
Walter,
Congrats on Taylor making it! I tried to call you on our way home from Steel City but didn't get you.
Mike
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