Anybody Really Thnk the Punishment is Fair

copsey
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7/10/2008 9:43am
What happens next time when someone escalates the situation with JLaw to something more serious than a fist fight? Problems follow some people around and it is usually because they are the problem. I love watching JLaw ride but sometimes enough is enough and you have to cut the problem out. I don't remember hearing about RV, Dungey or any other rider getting into it with a fan at RedBud. Shouldn't JLaw have been at the hotel resting for the race that weekend?
Quantem
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7/10/2008 9:48am
copsey wrote:
What happens next time when someone escalates the situation with JLaw to something more serious than a fist fight? Problems follow some people around and it...
What happens next time when someone escalates the situation with JLaw to something more serious than a fist fight? Problems follow some people around and it is usually because they are the problem. I love watching JLaw ride but sometimes enough is enough and you have to cut the problem out. I don't remember hearing about RV, Dungey or any other rider getting into it with a fan at RedBud. Shouldn't JLaw have been at the hotel resting for the race that weekend?
So you want all the riders to be like RV and Dungey? have fun with that.
copsey
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7/10/2008 9:51am
If by being like RV and Dungey they aren't in fights with fans at 2am; yea, I'll take that.
leanin
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7/10/2008 9:52am
Unfortunately, there's has been an awful lot of really talented motorcycle racers that have thrown it all away because of drugs and partying. Most don't make it to JLaw's level before it happens. I'm a JLaw fan and am certain he COULD make a comeback. But, I also have my doubts that he'll do it.

The Shop

Quantem
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7/10/2008 9:52am
copsey wrote:
If by being like RV and Dungey they aren't in fights with fans at 2am; yea, I'll take that.
They are both robots and when they do show personality they come off as whiners. At least Jason Lawrence knows what's funny. Do I think that he goes overboard sometimes? Of course, but I would rather him be there than not and I find him quite entertaining.
R-acer
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7/10/2008 10:02am
total BS
mr50racer
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7/10/2008 10:10am
He is a free spirit and it has gotten him into trouble. He is one of those riders that people either love, or love to hate. I think he deserves be to docked a 2-4 races just as they would do in any other proffessional sport. It not like he had guns and drugs rolling with snoop dogg or anything, He is doing exactly what most kids his age do. He is chasing girls and partying. Getting in fights over girls. Who didn't ?? Yeah he is proffessonal athlete and should be held to a higher standard. He shouldn't get and indefinitie suspension. He didn't get caught with drugs in a japaneese airport like Ronnie Lechein. ( No suspension).. He wasn't caught at Lake Havusu with drugs like Jeff Emig ( No suspension). MX pros have rolled rental cars since they started having races. I think he actually brings excitement to the races. He should pack up and race in Europe the rest of the year and then race Reedy's series down in Austrailia and screw the AMA.........
Ing
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7/10/2008 11:01am
mr50racer wrote:
He is a free spirit and it has gotten him into trouble. He is one of those riders that people either love, or love to hate...
He is a free spirit and it has gotten him into trouble. He is one of those riders that people either love, or love to hate. I think he deserves be to docked a 2-4 races just as they would do in any other proffessional sport. It not like he had guns and drugs rolling with snoop dogg or anything, He is doing exactly what most kids his age do. He is chasing girls and partying. Getting in fights over girls. Who didn't ?? Yeah he is proffessonal athlete and should be held to a higher standard. He shouldn't get and indefinitie suspension. He didn't get caught with drugs in a japaneese airport like Ronnie Lechein. ( No suspension).. He wasn't caught at Lake Havusu with drugs like Jeff Emig ( No suspension). MX pros have rolled rental cars since they started having races. I think he actually brings excitement to the races. He should pack up and race in Europe the rest of the year and then race Reedy's series down in Austrailia and screw the AMA.........
Couldn't have said it better myself.
floridaflash
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7/10/2008 11:23am
you can not look at what was done in the past, it does not matter, when you have outside sponsors and media the way it is today we need to have people that will behave. It is a privalige to race the pro ranks, not a right to. I feel the AMA should rule with an iron fist on all all the rules, they all no what they are before hand, and many have been warned before.
Ozy
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7/10/2008 11:27am
you can not look at what was done in the past, it does not matter, when you have outside sponsors and media the way it is...
you can not look at what was done in the past, it does not matter, when you have outside sponsors and media the way it is today we need to have people that will behave. It is a privalige to race the pro ranks, not a right to. I feel the AMA should rule with an iron fist on all all the rules, they all no what they are before hand, and many have been warned before.
What rule(s) did Jason violate? I didn't know that AMA Pro Racing had a code of ethics?

Other professional athletes in stick and ball sports have done way, way worse and gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

What ON Track infractions has the AMA penalized or sanctioned Jlaw for in the past.

The entire argument against Jlaw is subjective and emotional. Can anybody prove that AMA or Jlaw sponsors have been in any way damaged?
Starter Bob
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7/10/2008 11:40am
mr50racer wrote:
He is a free spirit and it has gotten him into trouble. He is one of those riders that people either love, or love to hate...
He is a free spirit and it has gotten him into trouble. He is one of those riders that people either love, or love to hate. I think he deserves be to docked a 2-4 races just as they would do in any other proffessional sport. It not like he had guns and drugs rolling with snoop dogg or anything, He is doing exactly what most kids his age do. He is chasing girls and partying. Getting in fights over girls. Who didn't ?? Yeah he is proffessonal athlete and should be held to a higher standard. He shouldn't get and indefinitie suspension. He didn't get caught with drugs in a japaneese airport like Ronnie Lechein. ( No suspension).. He wasn't caught at Lake Havusu with drugs like Jeff Emig ( No suspension). MX pros have rolled rental cars since they started having races. I think he actually brings excitement to the races. He should pack up and race in Europe the rest of the year and then race Reedy's series down in Austrailia and screw the AMA.........
You've got some thinking errors here...

Sure, most of us partied and chased girls when we were Jason's age. BUT, I sure didn't party within 2 - 3 days of a race. I knew that it would have too much effect on my results and I was just a so-so Intermediate. Also I was in the military and stationed overseas. Hell, Jason makes more in a month than I made in my four years. Having the opportunity to race the equipment and get paid what he does comes with responsibilities. The biggest responsibilities are that you will give it your best effort and do nothing that reflects poorly upon the people and companies that allow you this priviledge. If I would of pulled the stunts that Jason has this year my commanding officer would of done a lot more than suspended me from racing for a few races.

Comparing him to Ronnie and Jeff is wrong also. The two of them screwed up, took their licks, and didn't get into trouble again.

One of the biggest lessons in life is to learn how to be able to do what you want without getting into trouble. Sometimes this is to change your behavior, sometimes it is doing things "out of sight".

I hope that Jason gets his act together because it's great to watch him race.
OW38B
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7/10/2008 11:43am
Ozy wrote:
It seems that the AMA is trying to protect its reputation. Throwing an obviously troubled 21 year old under the bus will only make 1/2 the...
It seems that the AMA is trying to protect its reputation. Throwing an obviously troubled 21 year old under the bus will only make 1/2 the people happy. Getting the kid some help and and letting him continue racing (which is a good and productive thing) should make 90% of the people happy; it's a win win and good PR.


There is only a small minority of people who want to see Jason bleed and suffer
The AMA has a reputation to protect........who knew!
FreshTopEnd
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7/10/2008 11:44am
I don't know that you can judge the decision unfair without having some objective knowledge of the interim positions the AMA took and what they communicated the consequences would be in the future.

That said, unless someone has a personal grudge against him, I have to think everyone agrees that JL is a talent and personality that the sport benefits from and its in everyone's interest that he gets back on the track. And I am guessing that there are people who care about him in that mix that are distressed that his off track behavior appears to be heading in a self destructive direction.

Clearly there are wildly different perspectives about what's self destructive on this board.

But at some point it affects other people at the track. To go from a wreck at the track in Texas, which would have gotten everyone associated with JL sued (from the rental car company to the track owner to YOT to the AMA and NPG to Lawrence's mechanic to Lawrence himself) if someone had been hurt, to a fight two rounds later when he can't restrain himself when the cops step in, is going put people on edge about what's next. And I really doubt that any judge who heard those facts in a lawsuit brought to reinstate JL's ability to race over the AMA's objection would side against the AMA.

What I would hope is that the people who have invested in JL professionally and personally can sit down and mediate some sort of resolution that helps him make some better decisions and gets him back racing.

I don't think litigation is going to accomplish either of those things.
SEEMEFIRST
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7/10/2008 11:50am
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
OW38B
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7/10/2008 11:53am
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I look at it like any other job. Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have...
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
But J-law is NOT an employee of the AMA.
gt80rider
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7/10/2008 11:57am
It's not an indefinite ban, just till the end of 08'.

But still- I hate JLaw and I think that's a bit much. A half dozen races yes, for the rest of the year is too much for simply getting stuck in jail for a night and rolling a rental car. We are basically half way through the calender year.
SEEMEFIRST
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7/10/2008 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:34pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I look at it like any other job. Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have...
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
OW38B wrote:
But J-law is NOT an employee of the AMA.
It's an analogy.

But, who is it that granted him the privelege of holding an AMA pro license?
phlewy
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7/10/2008 12:12pm
hint hint hint...

how many dui convictions does this 21 year old have???

bueler.... bueler?

hint, more than 2 and less than 4.

The decision by the AMA isn't about Jlaw. Its about the AMA taking preemptive precaution in the event of a more catastrophic outcome. case closed.
Trip
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7/10/2008 12:13pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I look at it like any other job. Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have...
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
Well how good of an employee is he? Is he just late all the time? Does he close deals nobody else on your staff can? How much is he worth to your company? If he brings something to your company nobody else does, then you get rid of him just cause he's late?

I know what you were trying to say, but your comparison doesn't really work. All the racers in the YOT stable are there to try and win races. He is the only one there who can and has.
lostboy819
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7/10/2008 12:15pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2008 12:15pm
Ozy wrote:
IMHO, this Jason Lawrence fiasco is way overblown (fans must need the drama because the racing sucks so bad with no competition) The punishment is way...
IMHO, this Jason Lawrence fiasco is way overblown (fans must need the drama because the racing sucks so bad with no competition)

The punishment is way over the top and Jason should hire an attorney and challenge it. It's his lively hood and future and the AMA is overreacting by suspending him indefinitely.

Total B.S.!
I think he is getting off easy.
Pdub
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7/10/2008 12:15pm
The punishment is overblown, in my ill-informed opinion. One race suspension, or knock 50 points off of his total and another stiff fine. But I have learned to expect the worst decisions from the American Motorcyclist Association, so there you have it.

But I would like to stress that, again, my opinion is ill-formed. That is, I don't have enough information to really offer a decent opinion, so like most of you, I'll just pull this one out of my ass and post it here. You're welcome.
lostboy819
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7/10/2008 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2008 12:18pm
Pdub wrote:
The punishment is overblown, in my ill-informed opinion. One race suspension, or knock 50 points off of his total and another stiff fine. But I have...
The punishment is overblown, in my ill-informed opinion. One race suspension, or knock 50 points off of his total and another stiff fine. But I have learned to expect the worst decisions from the American Motorcyclist Association, so there you have it.

But I would like to stress that, again, my opinion is ill-formed. That is, I don't have enough information to really offer a decent opinion, so like most of you, I'll just pull this one out of my ass and post it here. You're welcome.
I would agree with you P if they were ON the track problems. Then I can see taking points and 1 race suspension. But they dont want him at the races at all and I agree with them.
Rooster
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7/10/2008 12:18pm
The AMA is the de facto boss of the riders and teams in the series they sanction.

Seemefirst's analogy is correct. Not a single one of us could pull the same shit that Jason has with our own jobs and expect to keep them. Try hanging out at your shop after work, getting drunk and getting into fights with your customers on company property and see what happens to you.
lostboy819
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7/10/2008 12:20pm
Rooster wrote:
The AMA is the de facto boss of the riders and teams in the series they sanction. Seemefirst's analogy is correct. Not a single one of...
The AMA is the de facto boss of the riders and teams in the series they sanction.

Seemefirst's analogy is correct. Not a single one of us could pull the same shit that Jason has with our own jobs and expect to keep them. Try hanging out at your shop after work, getting drunk and getting into fights with your customers on company property and see what happens to you.
100% correct.
OW38B
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7/10/2008 12:26pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I look at it like any other job. Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have...
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
OW38B wrote:
But J-law is NOT an employee of the AMA.
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
It's an analogy.

But, who is it that granted him the privelege of holding an AMA pro license?
My point is the AMA should stick to race day, on track type of stuff. The RV thing last year at Hangtown being an example of what they should be doing.

His off track issues, yes I'll admit he has many, should be up to his YOT team owners, the track promoters, if on their property or the local police if that applies.
Pdub
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7/10/2008 12:27pm
Rooster wrote:
The AMA is the de facto boss of the riders and teams in the series they sanction. Seemefirst's analogy is correct. Not a single one of...
The AMA is the de facto boss of the riders and teams in the series they sanction.

Seemefirst's analogy is correct. Not a single one of us could pull the same shit that Jason has with our own jobs and expect to keep them. Try hanging out at your shop after work, getting drunk and getting into fights with your customers on company property and see what happens to you.
Hmm. If your job is a bouncer at a really busy drinking establishment, you would probably NOT get fired for getting drunk after hours. It would really depend on the boss' viewpoint of such extra-curricular activities. My point is, I don't agree with the analogy. Comparing the circus that is pro motocross to working at Home Depot is more than a little far-fetched.

Jason's "job", as far as the AMA is concerned, is to entice fans to pay money to watch the races. He's "the draw", and not the only one of course. He did his job; the fans paid to come in the gate and even camp out for three days. That must make the promoter happy.

Once again, I don't know enough about Lawrence's specific infractions to really offer any useful opinion. And I don't think most of the people posting on this board have much more info than I do.
SteveS
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7/10/2008 1:11pm
Ozy wrote:
What rule(s) did Jason violate? I didn't know that AMA Pro Racing had a code of ethics? Other professional athletes in stick and ball sports have...
What rule(s) did Jason violate? I didn't know that AMA Pro Racing had a code of ethics?

Other professional athletes in stick and ball sports have done way, way worse and gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

What ON Track infractions has the AMA penalized or sanctioned Jlaw for in the past.

The entire argument against Jlaw is subjective and emotional. Can anybody prove that AMA or Jlaw sponsors have been in any way damaged?
Short memories. Jason started out this summer just finishing his one year probation for on track shenanigans (primarily involving Villopoto).
SteveS
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7/10/2008 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:34pm
As to rules, how about this one from the Pro rulebook, page 41:


A1.1 Through the establishment and enforcement of various rules and procedures, AMA Racing strives to regulate the sport of professional motorcycle racing in the fairest possible manner. By participating in an AMA Pro Racing meet, each participant agrees to abide by AMA Pro Racing's rules and procedures. In addition, AMA Pro Racing-licensed riders are held responsible for the actions of their crew members. As part of entering an AMA Pro Racing meet, a rider assures AMA Racing that his/her crew members are AMA members in good standing. All parties involved in AMA Pro Racing meets are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner, respecting at all times the rights of others. Participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities is a privilege afforded to license and event credential holders, and all such participants understand that violation of AMA Pro Racing rules and procedures can lead to forfeiture of their competition licenses or event credential, fines, points deductions, lap deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position), disqualification and other disciplinary actions as outlined herein.




Then, here is the specific rule he broke, and received the penalty for:


A2.1 This section outlines actions which are deemed to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing and which may result in a range of disciplinary actions. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, the Race Manager may disqualify any participant or motorcycle from the balance of a race meet for violation of these rules, insubordination or other actions deemed in the sole discretion of the Race Manager to be detrimental to the race meet and the sport. Such disqualification includes the loss of any rights with regard to the event in question and may result in expulsion from the meet site. In addition, the Race Manager is empowered to levy fines and to recommend to AMA Racing that a party or parties be suspended from participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, AMA Racing is empowered to suspend from competition any rider, crew member or motorcycle for a period of one meet up to an indefinite suspension for violation of these rules, insubordination, or other actions deemed, in the sole discretion of AMA Racing, to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing. AMA Racing is also empowered to, in addition to or in lieu of a suspension from competition, suspend a rider's eligibility to earn points for one or more events including, but not limited to, the event in which the rules violation took place. In addition, AMA Racing is empowered to levy fines, points deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position) and lap deductions. The beginning and ending dates of any such suspension will be as determined by AMA Racing.

A2.2 Any supplemental rules, regulations, instructions or procedures established by AMA Racing for the purpose of implementing, interpreting or enforcing these rules will be deemed to be part of the rules.

A2.3 The following offenses will be subject to disciplinary action by the Race Manager and/or AMA Racing. This list is provided as guidance to licensed competitors and event credential holders but does not restrict AMA Racing from invoking penalties for other actions detrimental to the sport which are not specifically contemplated herein.

a. Falsifying one's age or ability to meet any of the various eligibility requirements as set forth by AMA Racing, or in general, competing or attempting to compete in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities under false pretenses.

b. Competing under a false name or in any other way attempting to gain an unfair advantage.

c. Abetting or knowingly engaging in any race in which the result is "fixed" or prearranged.

d. Giving, offering or promising, directly or indirectly, any bribe in any form to any person in an attempt to circumvent AMA Pro Racing rules or procedures or to otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

e. Accepting or offering to accept any bribe in any form from any person in an attempt to circumvent AMA Pro Racing rules or procedures or to otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

f. Refusing to provide a factual statement regarding an item under appeal when requested by AMA Racing or a party to the appeal; or interfering in any way with AMA Pro Racing's protest and appeal procedures in order to influence the outcome.

g. Failing to ride in a meet after entering without giving proper notice of non-participation.

h. Engaging in a rider boycott, public protest or other similar concerted activity meant to stop, delay, or otherwise inhibit the start or completion of any portion of an AMA Pro Racing event.

i. Engaging in any unfair practice, misbehavior or action detrimental to the sport of motorcycling in general, whether or not related to a specific competition.

j. An attack on an AMA Racing official and/or engaging in a fight. This includes any person who attacks or is involved in a fight anywhere on the premises prior to, during, or after an AMA Pro Racing meet. There will be no maximum fine or suspension period for this offense.





So, I ask you. Did the AMA accurately follow its own rules and recommended penalties?
TheWeapon
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7/10/2008 1:36pm
I somewhat agree with the suspension....but I hope it has a positive effect on him. i.e.: he comes back hungrier than ever to defend his SX title.

The Australian SX series would be a good way to stay race fit....

BUT as a fan I think the AMA has done the wrong thing by us. I'm a big fan of the loose cannon. Not just J-Law, but guys like Josh Grant, Walker, and co....guys that aren't afraid to mix things up a bit and make things interesting.

I really struggle to see any personality on the podium these days....just the clones with their "I'd like to thank....blah blah effing blah." I loved seeing Pastrana on the podium with his genuine excitement....and J-Law with his "I threw up in my helmet....but swallowed it up and went for it".....its a shame that us fans will miss out on whatever it is he would have done (be it on track or off) the rest of this season....

SEEMEFIRST
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7/10/2008 1:39pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
I look at it like any other job. Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have...
I look at it like any other job.

Lets say you have a good employee who is habitually late. You have warned him repeatedly, and have all the documentation to back yourself up.

Monday morning he shows up late again for a very important meeting, and you tell him "That's your last chance". So as if to thumb his nose at the guy who pays him he shows up late Tuesday...What would you do?
Trip wrote:
Well how good of an employee is he? Is he just late all the time? Does he close deals nobody else on your staff can? How...
Well how good of an employee is he? Is he just late all the time? Does he close deals nobody else on your staff can? How much is he worth to your company? If he brings something to your company nobody else does, then you get rid of him just cause he's late?

I know what you were trying to say, but your comparison doesn't really work. All the racers in the YOT stable are there to try and win races. He is the only one there who can and has.
Semantics Trip, substitute late with fighting. Does that make it easier to compare?

But the best hand in the world ain't worth a flying crap if he ain't there.

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