There needs to be a way to signal riders...

Crash82
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:51pm
They need to be notified not to jump and it needs to be instant. The MA incident and the one last week where the rider could not get to his bike after the step down. Someone needs to wake up, the red light someone mentioned is a good idea, it would have saved mike some pumishment and it will also save someones life down the road. If the people running the show don't do something, someone is going to get killed.
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Tiki
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7/7/2008 10:19am
After seeing Mike Alessi's crash. Do you think a light would have warned the riders any sooner? Someone would still have to turn the light on. Then its just another obstacle you could hit on the track.

Not trying to take anything away from your idea, just posing a question to you from a different point of view.

Everyone knows the risk when they roll up to the gate.
fcr
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7/7/2008 10:20am
The flaggers hired are not "pros". They are enthusiasts. That is part of it. The training of the flaggers is minimal from what I can see. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Tiki
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7/7/2008 10:24am
I know a few people that worked the Glen Helen national, I know they race that same track. I cant say its that way at all races, I believe the Hangtown crew is a lot of racers as well. If thats the case they aren't totally green.
mxmedic
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7/7/2008 10:30am
A more reliable warning method is a novel idea, but when everybody is just coming off of the line, it will be very difficult to do anything to warn the other riders quick enough and let them have enough time to react. That's a lot of riders in one small area all at once, and most all of them are just focused on trying to get a good start.

I have not yet seen the MA incident, but sometimes coming off of the start, it doesn't even have to be a jump for someone to go down and end up getting run over repeatedly (ala DV last year at Millville).

The Shop

flarider
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7/7/2008 10:30am
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
Phlapjax
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7/7/2008 10:32am
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
x2
Cygnus
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7/7/2008 10:33am
Not a bad idea . But in this case I don't think it would have helped much . All the riders were going so damn fast at that point it only took maybe 10 seconds for them to all be clear . It actually might have caused more riders to crash with guys slamming on the brakes and getting rearended.
Racer92
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7/7/2008 10:33am
Dave's right.
fcr
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7/7/2008 10:34am
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
I totally agree. The questioning of the incident will help in the future. Look at the Kalitta incident. No one was at fault in this situation from what I can see. It is just a good Idea to look at it critically. JMO
Crash82
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7/7/2008 10:48am
Maybe it wouldn't have helped with MA. What about the rider that couldn't get to his bike after crashing on the step down a week or 2 ago? That was dangerous for the riders jumping and the rider that crashed. A radio in the helmet with one channel, they broadcast red flag and riders stop. I would rather get rear ended(no gay jokes please) than land on another rider or bike.
Crash82
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7/7/2008 10:52am
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
Nothing would have changed the first hits but I know for a fact red lights or a radio would have stopped the 5th or 6th time he got hit. The red lights would be all the way around the track, like nascar, and those that hit him last would not have been jumping.
spacerider
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7/7/2008 11:08am
go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down .. the racer don't look ..
crowe176
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7/7/2008 11:11am
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
Phlapjax wrote:
x2
I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.
Slow ~ Pro
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7/7/2008 11:25am
~ Yellow flags mean nothing these days. Rarely does a rider slow at all. Many think it is a time to pass other riders.


Then the problem is with the flaggers. Like FCR says they're not Pros, they get free entrance to the race...The issue I always have is the way the flag guys face.

It should be mandatory for a flagger to face the traffic as it rides away, not looking at oncoming riders. For this reason, when a crash happens the flagger is still watching the race instead of doing the job at hand.

Alway been a problem always will be.

This was a high speed section, little could have been prevented, but if the flags were waving further up the track, then maybe it may not have been so bad.
teggers
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7/7/2008 11:30am
spacerider wrote:
go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down...
go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down .. the racer don't look ..
Brian Manley....He said it hurt - alot.
Crash82
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7/7/2008 11:34am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2008 11:35am
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
Phlapjax wrote:
x2
crowe176 wrote:
I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a...
I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.
So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.
fcr
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7/7/2008 11:36am
In the video it looks like the flaggers could not see down track. It needs to be like a relay system so there is not a blocked view from down the line. If the flagger is looking at an area that drops out of view how could he see if someone goes down?
flarider
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7/7/2008 11:39am
Crash82 wrote:
So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were...
So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.
That's not what anyone said.

Go to that video, and time it from when MA hits the ground and the pack passes, it is probably 3 seconds max

Then factor human reaction times, to radio times, then the human reaction time of the 2nd person.

The incident would be long over by that time.

You're dealing with fractions of seconds in an incident like this
croom mx
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7/7/2008 11:39am
Flaggers have always been a problem. I`ve seen flaggers too busy watching the crash instead of warning the oncoming riders, then after about 5 of them have run over the downed rider they start waving the flag.
7/7/2008 11:42am
This is pro racing folks. Train the flagmen, pay them decently for their work and critique them after a event. Probably would not have helped MA early in the crash, but would have helped greatly with the last couple of hits. If you can light up Colorado you can put up some kind of flashing light system at these tracks. We want to see the best racers in the world do their jobs the promoters should step up and make it as safe and professional as it can be. We sometimes want the best TV coverage live events night racing and anything to help us fans out, but without the best racers in the world the event wont be the same. Step up and help these guys out. It isnt to much to ask.
fcr
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7/7/2008 11:45am
The system is not perfect but can be refined. This incident could not have been prevented. As stated starts are pure adrenaline.
flarider
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7/7/2008 11:47am
Pro MX needs to look at how RR handles corner workers, as well as SCCA and other racing organizations.
MX is very amateur in comparison
fcr
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7/7/2008 11:49am
flarider wrote:
Pro MX needs to look at how RR handles corner workers, as well as SCCA and other racing organizations.
MX is very amateur in comparison
There you go. Model after a successful system.
lapper
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7/7/2008 11:59am
I've flagged 6 Nationals and the MXoN. Tiki is right about Flagger's being local racers. You must be 18 and have racing / flagging experience. There's a training film and a briefing from the AMA. The principals of flagging are really pretty simple and experience is the best training IMHO. The AMA has a few "professional" flaggers that roam the track and assist with hot spots as well. These are the guys in the Blue shirts with headsets. The flagger you see in the Youtube video was an AMA official. I'm sure (hope) there was another flagger up the hill you don't see. If you watch the video, it was less than 5 sec. from when MA went down to when the last rider hit him. The rider had past the flagger at that point, so total reaction time was probably less that 3 seconds. This includes the time for the rider to see the flag and react as well. Flarider is right. NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing
One of the hardest parts of flagging is keeping focus that you are not there to give aid a downed rider. Your job is to summon the Medical team (Red cross flag) and protect the rider from additional injury. The medical staff will handle the injuries that have already occurred. It's a natural instinct as a racer and human being to want go to a rider who is down. However, leaving your position to a place where you can no longer warn the on-coming riders puts them, you and the downed rider in more risk. When a rider goes down hard, there's always some idiot spectator screaming at you to go help the rider. This usually includes some insults and profanity. I've never done it, but those idiots deserve a nice juicy STFU after the moto. Flagging is like the military...hours of boredom interrupted by moments of chaos!
RanelC10
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7/7/2008 12:24pm
We already have a good system for this and its used on the triples in supercross. Its simple ALL of the blind jumps on an mx track should have those same red lights. You see a red light, you don't jump or you will be penalized.

PMP, here in AZ uses this system and it works very well. Each flagger has control of a couple areas that he can light up if someone goes down in his section. All he has to do when he sees a rider go down is press a button. How many seconds does that take? 2 Maybe. Lapper says it was less than 5 seconds when MA went down of people hitting him, lights could have saved up to 3 seconds of that. Is that worth it? YES!

The system they use at our track here works with the amount of people we have. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to designate 1 person and 1 button for each blind jump on an AMA National track. The flagger with the button is placed where he can see the landing, and the lights will light up as far back as you decide the rider would need to be able to shut off for the jump.
Crash82
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7/7/2008 12:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:31pm
Crash82 wrote:
So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were...
So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.
flarider wrote:
That's not what anyone said. Go to that video, and time it from when MA hits the ground and the pack passes, it is probably 3...
That's not what anyone said.

Go to that video, and time it from when MA hits the ground and the pack passes, it is probably 3 seconds max

Then factor human reaction times, to radio times, then the human reaction time of the 2nd person.

The incident would be long over by that time.

You're dealing with fractions of seconds in an incident like this
I've looked at it 20 times and I promise you give me a Red flag and the 5th and 6th guys that landed on him would not have jumped that jump.

Crashed at :07 secs of the video, first hit at :12 secs last hit at :17 secs. you would have to be quick but those aren't fractions of seconds. Flagger has a button to turn on light and hits it as soon as he sees the rider down on backside of jump, the 2 guys that hit him last were way up that straight or maybe a turn before, they would not have jumped.
Now go review the tape of the guy that couldn't get to his bike last week or the week before, that was just stupid man. This thread is not only about MA's crash it's about how can we notify a rider that it's not safe to jump.
I stated how i feel and don't see how arguing will help here. (unless someone can't post facts)
Crash82
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7/7/2008 12:29pm
lapper wrote:
I've flagged 6 Nationals and the MXoN. Tiki is right about Flagger's being local racers. You must be 18 and have racing / flagging experience. There's...
I've flagged 6 Nationals and the MXoN. Tiki is right about Flagger's being local racers. You must be 18 and have racing / flagging experience. There's a training film and a briefing from the AMA. The principals of flagging are really pretty simple and experience is the best training IMHO. The AMA has a few "professional" flaggers that roam the track and assist with hot spots as well. These are the guys in the Blue shirts with headsets. The flagger you see in the Youtube video was an AMA official. I'm sure (hope) there was another flagger up the hill you don't see. If you watch the video, it was less than 5 sec. from when MA went down to when the last rider hit him. The rider had past the flagger at that point, so total reaction time was probably less that 3 seconds. This includes the time for the rider to see the flag and react as well. Flarider is right. NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing
One of the hardest parts of flagging is keeping focus that you are not there to give aid a downed rider. Your job is to summon the Medical team (Red cross flag) and protect the rider from additional injury. The medical staff will handle the injuries that have already occurred. It's a natural instinct as a racer and human being to want go to a rider who is down. However, leaving your position to a place where you can no longer warn the on-coming riders puts them, you and the downed rider in more risk. When a rider goes down hard, there's always some idiot spectator screaming at you to go help the rider. This usually includes some insults and profanity. I've never done it, but those idiots deserve a nice juicy STFU after the moto. Flagging is like the military...hours of boredom interrupted by moments of chaos!
It was 10 seconds from the time he crashed until the last hit. :07 was the crash :17 last hit.
Crash82
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7/7/2008 12:31pm
RanelC10 wrote:
We already have a good system for this and its used on the triples in supercross. Its simple ALL of the blind jumps on an mx...
We already have a good system for this and its used on the triples in supercross. Its simple ALL of the blind jumps on an mx track should have those same red lights. You see a red light, you don't jump or you will be penalized.

PMP, here in AZ uses this system and it works very well. Each flagger has control of a couple areas that he can light up if someone goes down in his section. All he has to do when he sees a rider go down is press a button. How many seconds does that take? 2 Maybe. Lapper says it was less than 5 seconds when MA went down of people hitting him, lights could have saved up to 3 seconds of that. Is that worth it? YES!

The system they use at our track here works with the amount of people we have. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to designate 1 person and 1 button for each blind jump on an AMA National track. The flagger with the button is placed where he can see the landing, and the lights will light up as far back as you decide the rider would need to be able to shut off for the jump.
Cool, thanks for posting that. Lapper can't tell time, maybe we should get flaggers with GED's?
adamdf
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7/7/2008 1:29pm Edited Date/Time 7/7/2008 1:31pm
Crash82 wrote:
They need to be notified not to jump and it needs to be instant. The MA incident and the one last week where the rider could...
They need to be notified not to jump and it needs to be instant. The MA incident and the one last week where the rider could not get to his bike after the step down. Someone needs to wake up, the red light someone mentioned is a good idea, it would have saved mike some pumishment and it will also save someones life down the road. If the people running the show don't do something, someone is going to get killed.
I agree especially about that incident in Colorado. That was just really crazy, that guy with the flag is lucky someone didn't put him in the ground for being such a moron. I am sorry, but the organizers should take the job a flag person has more seriously in my opinion. I mean this is not an amateur event we are talking about, you know? These guys are some of the best athletes in the world, the least they deserve is to have their safety put first.I am not saying they aren't looked after AFTER they are hurt, they seem to do a good job of that, but now i think it is time to start being proactive about it as far as the flag guys are concerned. I know i am sounding like a broken record, but i was screaming at the flag guy through the TV when i saw that, lol, i could not believe what happened there, it was unacceptable in every sense of the word.

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