Would we be having all these injuries if.....

40Plus_922mx
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Edited Date/Time 2/22/2012 8:18am
We were still on 2 strokes? 3-2-1 Go!
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Derpin' DJ
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2/20/2012 8:12pm
bd
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2/20/2012 8:17pm
Yes and I am a two stroke lover
TDeath21
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2/20/2012 8:20pm
Less injuries, paralyzed riders, and deaths at the amateur level if we were still on 2 strokes. As far as the pros go, no I don't think 2 or 4 has any difference. It's more because they're pushing each other so hard and there's so much talent at the front. That's why I said 2012 won't be as good as 2011. It was a miracle all 5 riders got through all but 3 races healthy.

The Shop

40Plus_922mx
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2/20/2012 8:29pm
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't even triple from the inside. Doesn't the increase in speed and momentum equate to higher numbers regardless? Don't get me wrong either I own nine 4 strokes in my family. With a masters in physics wouldn't you come to this conclusion logicly?
jndmx
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2/20/2012 8:42pm
So we should tell the riders to go slower?
Deetsmx
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2/20/2012 8:42pm
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't...
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't even triple from the inside. Doesn't the increase in speed and momentum equate to higher numbers regardless? Don't get me wrong either I own nine 4 strokes in my family. With a masters in physics wouldn't you come to this conclusion logicly?
Yup, they were crawling. I'm surprised windham has picked up his pace so much to still be able to run at the front considering he was getting smoked by a few guys back in 05 that were on those turtles.
newmann
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2/20/2012 8:53pm
Everybody agrees the 450's give beginners a false sense of invincibility.
KAWboy14
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2/20/2012 8:58pm
the tracks are to small.....give them some BIG 110' transfers Smile
bullpen58
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2/20/2012 9:41pm
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to ride. No torque, no traction, narrow powerbands, unpredictable hits, fouled plugs, gummed up powervalves, etc., etc., etc. I do not miss them one bit.

A modern 4-stroke is a (hold on to your hats) MACHINE. It's not a fucking buckin bronco or PBR rank bull that wants to kill you. Machines ONLY DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO DO!!!! When I want my 450 to wheelie, gues what it does? It wheelies! Amazing.

Guess what a 250 two stroke would do when I wanted it to wheelie? Loop out, bog, slide out, or huckabuck....take your pick but it rarely did what I wanted it to do.

The reason we have more injuries is due in part to two things: LOTS more people (amateurs) riding/racing now than ever before, and every time anyone gets hurt it is blasted all over the interweb within the hour (making it SEEM like a worse problem than before).

Not sure why I spent so much time (5 mins?) and energy (one twinkie) responding to such a dumb thread. LOL
Cook441
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2/20/2012 9:43pm
it just shows we are literallywatching a breakneck pace-
njracer46
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2/20/2012 9:46pm
Get a life?
Cancerman
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2/20/2012 10:17pm
bullpen58 wrote:
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to...
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to ride. No torque, no traction, narrow powerbands, unpredictable hits, fouled plugs, gummed up powervalves, etc., etc., etc. I do not miss them one bit.

A modern 4-stroke is a (hold on to your hats) MACHINE. It's not a fucking buckin bronco or PBR rank bull that wants to kill you. Machines ONLY DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO DO!!!! When I want my 450 to wheelie, gues what it does? It wheelies! Amazing.

Guess what a 250 two stroke would do when I wanted it to wheelie? Loop out, bog, slide out, or huckabuck....take your pick but it rarely did what I wanted it to do.

The reason we have more injuries is due in part to two things: LOTS more people (amateurs) riding/racing now than ever before, and every time anyone gets hurt it is blasted all over the interweb within the hour (making it SEEM like a worse problem than before).

Not sure why I spent so much time (5 mins?) and energy (one twinkie) responding to such a dumb thread. LOL
I think that if you feel it's a dumb thread, maybe you are not giving it some thought. I own an RM125, RM250, and just sold a CRF450, and 250. When I bought my 450, I was like, wow, this thing is fast, and easy to ride, it will do anything you ask of it. Well, I belive that's part of the problem, is the bike is easy to go fast on, so most riders really can't handle what a modern 450 delivers, and they often find themselves way beyond their skill level. I've been riding and racing since I was 12, and I'm 54 now. I've owned dozens of bike through the years. The CRF450 is the only bike I've sold, feeling that it had more to offer than I could use, and if I rode it at that level, I was going to get hurt. Things happen way fast, just ask Chad Reed. These guys have pushed the pro speeds to insane levels. I did a lap time test, with all three bikes (125,250,450) and found that the 450 was very fast but wore me out quickly, and I started making mistakes, often riding over my head. The 250 was a great compromise of power and weight, the 125 I could ride pretty much pinned, twice as long. I put the most set up into the 125 (showa), and it makes a huge difference in safety. I'm going to do the 250 next, to see if it makes as much difference as the 125. Even thogh the 450 was dialed for my weight, I still could not get away with near as much as the smokers. You are one of the guys that can probably use what the 450 has, and are strong enough and in good enough shape to do it safely. I run down most 4 stroke drivers after a couple of laps when they get fuzzy headed. I do my PM, so I don't foul plugs or gum up powervalves, and a flywheel weight works wonders on a 250 2T, by the way. Anybody that is faster than me, is faster anyway, so I could not beat them on a 450 either, unless we are talking about drag racing or hill climbs..........see, I don't think this thread was that dumb. LOL Whistling
CR500Rider
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2/20/2012 10:18pm
bullpen58 wrote:
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to...
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to ride. No torque, no traction, narrow powerbands, unpredictable hits, fouled plugs, gummed up powervalves, etc., etc., etc. I do not miss them one bit.

A modern 4-stroke is a (hold on to your hats) MACHINE. It's not a fucking buckin bronco or PBR rank bull that wants to kill you. Machines ONLY DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO DO!!!! When I want my 450 to wheelie, gues what it does? It wheelies! Amazing.

Guess what a 250 two stroke would do when I wanted it to wheelie? Loop out, bog, slide out, or huckabuck....take your pick but it rarely did what I wanted it to do.

The reason we have more injuries is due in part to two things: LOTS more people (amateurs) riding/racing now than ever before, and every time anyone gets hurt it is blasted all over the interweb within the hour (making it SEEM like a worse problem than before).

Not sure why I spent so much time (5 mins?) and energy (one twinkie) responding to such a dumb thread. LOL
Lots more people riding/racing now than ever before? I take it you didn't ride/race in the 70's.
g0rd057
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2/20/2012 11:17pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 11:31pm
bullpen58 wrote:
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to...
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to ride. No torque, no traction, narrow powerbands, unpredictable hits, fouled plugs, gummed up powervalves, etc., etc., etc. I do not miss them one bit.

A modern 4-stroke is a (hold on to your hats) MACHINE. It's not a fucking buckin bronco or PBR rank bull that wants to kill you. Machines ONLY DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO DO!!!! When I want my 450 to wheelie, gues what it does? It wheelies! Amazing.

Guess what a 250 two stroke would do when I wanted it to wheelie? Loop out, bog, slide out, or huckabuck....take your pick but it rarely did what I wanted it to do.

The reason we have more injuries is due in part to two things: LOTS more people (amateurs) riding/racing now than ever before, and every time anyone gets hurt it is blasted all over the interweb within the hour (making it SEEM like a worse problem than before).

Not sure why I spent so much time (5 mins?) and energy (one twinkie) responding to such a dumb thread. LOL
CR500Rider wrote:
Lots more people riding/racing now than ever before? I take it you didn't ride/race in the 70's.
You can say that again.....
Check my avatar. It!s a typical 125 novice field in 1974 at a local weekly race.
I think the advent of modern long travel suspensions made racing more dangerous. Riders jump much, much higher and further than in the 70's. Tracks are built with massive double and triple jumps now which almost send bikes into orbit.
Simple physics tells you the farther you fall, the harder you crash.
Sherwood
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2/20/2012 11:44pm
Yes.
Suns_PSD
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2/21/2012 11:07am
4 strokes really are ultimately faster around the track than the 2 strokes they can compete against.

It only stands to reason that if you are going faster, doing ever larger jumps, w/ shorter and shorter run ups, that the inevitable crashes are going to be more violent and therefore more damaging.

For instance, Reed wouldn't have been able to jump in as deep as he did last Saturday night on a 250cc 2 stroke and therefore that speed and distance would not have occurred. Sure he might crash at a slower speed as a guy like him is always going to try and push the limits, but he would be going slower doing it and therefore less likely to get as injuried. Also the bike would have been lighter and really just easier to save.

I am a perfect example of the 4 stroke curse. After years of roadracing at the age of 35 I went and bought a CRF450R as my first real dirtbike. I was horrible at the turns, the ruts, shifting, maintaining momentum...but I rolled thru every turn in 3rd gear and held that 450F wide open and cleared every obstacle on the track. And let me tell you when I crashed on that 450, it hurt me. I got taken out on several occasions by that bike and limped for weeks at times. The crashes always had the same theme. I'd get sideways, and then usually have a huge highside or spit off. Once that bike went out, there was no saving it at my skill level.

Then I moved to a new 2 stroke and the weekly crashes just completely went away. I rode more aggresively than ever, faster than ever, with much higher corner speeds. When ever I feel the need to upgrade, I just borrow a new 450F from anyone of my friends and in 1-2 laps I remember that I'm already home on my KTM 250SX.
huck
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2/21/2012 11:20am
There were more paralyzed pro riders on 2 strokes, than 4 strokes...
Mspicer
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2/21/2012 11:21am
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't...
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't even triple from the inside. Doesn't the increase in speed and momentum equate to higher numbers regardless? Don't get me wrong either I own nine 4 strokes in my family. With a masters in physics wouldn't you come to this conclusion logicly?
logicly? You have a masters in physics? Logically, you should know how to spell, or at least grab a dictionary.
MX558
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2/21/2012 1:23pm
bullpen58 wrote:
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to...
I crash WAY less since I switched to a four stroke (in 99). I will NEVER go back to those buzz saws. WAY too hard to ride. No torque, no traction, narrow powerbands, unpredictable hits, fouled plugs, gummed up powervalves, etc., etc., etc. I do not miss them one bit.

A modern 4-stroke is a (hold on to your hats) MACHINE. It's not a fucking buckin bronco or PBR rank bull that wants to kill you. Machines ONLY DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO DO!!!! When I want my 450 to wheelie, gues what it does? It wheelies! Amazing.

Guess what a 250 two stroke would do when I wanted it to wheelie? Loop out, bog, slide out, or huckabuck....take your pick but it rarely did what I wanted it to do.

The reason we have more injuries is due in part to two things: LOTS more people (amateurs) riding/racing now than ever before, and every time anyone gets hurt it is blasted all over the interweb within the hour (making it SEEM like a worse problem than before).

Not sure why I spent so much time (5 mins?) and energy (one twinkie) responding to such a dumb thread. LOL
well said, all I raced until 03 was a 2t (got injured and quit for a bit) I'll never go back to those buzz saw junks. I do ride one once in a while just to remind myself how bad they suck. lol
40Plus_922mx
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2/21/2012 1:38pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 1:39pm
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't...
Have any of you guys gone back and watched the gold old days of 2-stroke races? They are crawling around the tracks. 1/2 the 125's can't even triple from the inside. Doesn't the increase in speed and momentum equate to higher numbers regardless? Don't get me wrong either I own nine 4 strokes in my family. With a masters in physics wouldn't you come to this conclusion logicly?
Mspicer wrote:
logicly? You have a masters in physics? Logically, you should know how to spell, or at least grab a dictionary.
Um? I never said I had a degree in anything? Comprehension is far more valuable than spelling. -->> [Mirror]

I really wasnt referreing to amatures. The comment about the web and how the info travels much faser is definitly true.
The injuries in the Pro ranks the last 10 or so years has gone bananas. I don't expect any of the band wagon noobs to understand this. But for you guys who have been riding and racing for 15-20 years how can you not agree?

I don't hate on thumps. I LOVE my CRF. I love the technology. Got nothing to do with that. I just think it's painfully obvious as to what is happening. But nobody is talking about it.
Rupert X
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2/21/2012 1:41pm
The worm can has been once again opened, and the dead horse has been once again beaten,

I like horses and worms. Don't like worms in my horses though.
JJO741
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2/21/2012 1:44pm
It is clear that no one EVER got hurt on two strokes. Injuries did not exist until 4 strokes came along.
YZ125H1
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2/21/2012 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 1:52pm
4 strokes give you the illusion you're a much better rider than you really are. I see so many kids at the track on 250f's/450's that are riding way above their skill level and they get hurt all the time. Plus with all the bogus safety equipment nowadays like neck braces and knee bracers that cause harm to you also. Faster speeds, heavier bikes, bigger jumps = more injuries. MX has becoming nothing more than a sport to rob you of as much money as possible now.
40Plus_922mx
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2/21/2012 2:15pm
Rupert X wrote:
The worm can has been once again opened, and the dead horse has been once again beaten, I like horses and worms. Don't like worms in...
The worm can has been once again opened, and the dead horse has been once again beaten,

I like horses and worms. Don't like worms in my horses though.
Now you see? Worm can? Call it what you want. Discredit the post. Use the extreme point of, "injuries never happened till 4 strokes" This is blind eye'd logic. When you can't intelligently debate you must cloud the issue. And of all people?? Rupert!! Someone who earns his bank on the back of these riders? Seriously.
Rupert X
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2/21/2012 2:30pm
You misread me. Generally speaking, folks use these terms when two strokes are mentioned, that is all.

Wasn't attempting to discredit your theory.

It does seem like there are more injuries with these bikes, but without stats, documentation or studies,

we are simply speculating The bikes are heavier, power is available more readily and the results are

sometimes unforgiving. I don't like the unfair advantages that have been mandated by policy to permit the

4 stroke to thrive - and I'm firmly behind the two-stroke rebellion (read my manifesto), but I'd also be pissed

if you took away my four stroke. Like you, I hate seeing our motocross brothers and sisters in pain.

Motocross, like life, will never be wreck or injury free, but we damn sure need to find some ways to

make things safer.
BobbyM
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2/21/2012 3:04pm
what in the FU,,,,,,
nwrider82
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2/22/2012 12:27am
SwapperMX
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2/22/2012 2:43am
huck wrote:
There were more paralyzed pro riders on 2 strokes, than 4 strokes...
Over 30+ years v 6-8 years, sure you might be able to make the numbers a bit skew, but how many serious injuries and deaths have you personally seen occur or have heard about first hand in the last few years. Back in the 90's racing through my teenage years, a broken collar bone or broken ankle was a serious injury. These days they are considered insignificant, and you have to be permanently maimed or worse before it is considered a serious injury.
DustyFooper
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2/22/2012 3:49am Edited Date/Time 2/22/2012 5:45am
Yes, you'd have less injuries if the pros were on 2 strokes.

No, today's racing is not really a faster pace... How is it faster? The tracks are flatter and have a little less of everything...

When you are going to ride fast on difficult terrian, it stands to reason you should have the best equipment possible. Equipment such as a light, fast bike.

Boat racing on a supercross track is extremely dangerous.... even if you do the responsible thing and scale down the size of everything on the track to try to make it safer...

Observe Chad Reed's crash from a recent Booper-Cross main savant... Look how the bumps he lands in with his Boatbike are about 1 foot high and 6 feet long.... for a nice, gentle slope that should be safe even for a baby elephant to walk on without tripping.

MISHAP on BOOPER-CROSS TRACK - "Is somebody out there on a Honda Rebel cruiser???"


Here is the same rider in the same city, but this is on an older "Full Sized" supercross track, before Booper-Cross was legislated into existence at the start of 2006, by the makers of Kool Aide.

LIGHTER, FASTER MOTOCROSS BIKES ON REAL SUPERCROSS TRACK - BEFORE THE TRACKS WERE FLATTENED OUT FOR BOAT RACING.....

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