Yesterdays SX tracks; Todays bikes/riders

Hando
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Edited Date/Time 2/16/2012 11:42am
Currently watching the 2001 SX races (thanks TBlazier) and I must say, the tracks were alot better/more technical and fun to watch compared to todays tracks which are pretty boring and cookie cutter IMO.

The tracks from the early 2000s seem to have alot more options..steeper jumps, dual lane whoops, step on/off/overs, better rythm sections, deep whoops, tunnel jumps, the occasional big quad that only 1 dude on a 125 would jump.. and todays tracks seem to have only one big section where only a few dudes will put something together that no one else is doing..the jumps are more distance-orientated as well

Would the racing be any better on a more tech/slower track?? I think the riders would have to have more control as it'd be easy to over jump stuff...
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CR250Rider
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2/14/2012 11:27pm
tracks today are taylor made for heavier bikes with more hp
TDeath21
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2/14/2012 11:32pm
With the tracks back then, it was much easier to come through the pack. The better riders that day were usually at the front regardless. There were a lot more sections to separate the top guys. Now, the start is way more important than it ever has been.

I think Dungey and Reed would be doing amazing on those technical tracks, especially Reed. On those same tracks, Stewart's win total would probably be cut in half. Hard to say where Villopoto would be. With his tenacity though I would expect him to be up at the top still.
Derpin' DJ
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2/14/2012 11:33pm
I don't see why though. It's not like the riders want it that way. I'm sure they could handle the older tracks fine on the current bikes.
FourFoopty
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2/15/2012 10:39am
CR250Rider wrote:
tracks today are taylor made for heavier bikes with more hp
Yeah and the slower acceleration of today's bikes...

The Shop

Hando
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2/15/2012 10:45am
The last good 'modern' track I remember seeing was St.Louis in 2009
ga_pike
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2/15/2012 10:59am
Talk about a bitchfest!! Just go back to A1 this year and all the complaints about "the wall". That was a classic mid-90's fixture in SX but people hate it today. I'd love to see some big air to flat, super random rythmn sections, walls, etc. They need to bring back the into the stands stuff like Pontiac and the old LA races. How about some lane choice stuff?
rallendude
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2/15/2012 11:16am
The non-rhythm stuff is where it's at. If they would put a wall or instead of building 60 -80 yard long table table triple double sections, make it where something in the middle was out of whack, not only would it add to the difficulty and make it more challenging, it would also make the lap times longer (one thing we've all been looking for) and it would make the tracks a little safer by slowing the speeds down through those sections.
tblazier
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2/15/2012 11:18am
Hando wrote:
Currently watching the 2001 SX races (thanks TBlazier) and I must say, the tracks were alot better/more technical and fun to watch compared to todays tracks...
Currently watching the 2001 SX races (thanks TBlazier) and I must say, the tracks were alot better/more technical and fun to watch compared to todays tracks which are pretty boring and cookie cutter IMO.

The tracks from the early 2000s seem to have alot more options..steeper jumps, dual lane whoops, step on/off/overs, better rythm sections, deep whoops, tunnel jumps, the occasional big quad that only 1 dude on a 125 would jump.. and todays tracks seem to have only one big section where only a few dudes will put something together that no one else is doing..the jumps are more distance-orientated as well

Would the racing be any better on a more tech/slower track?? I think the riders would have to have more control as it'd be easy to over jump stuff...
I totally agree on the current tracks vs early 2000 tracks. If you watch these races from 10 years ago the track were way more gnarly in a lot of ways. I absolutely hate listening to the riders complain about how the tracks lack flow or places to pass. To me the best guys always are going to win no matter what and anytime you hear a rider saying there is no place to pass you have RV2 or CR22 blitzing through the pack and picking of 15 guys after a bad start. The fast guys always find a place to pass. I love retro stuff like walls and other obstacles that slow down the track and make it more interesting to watch. I think the riders only like tracks that allow them to jump and flow around the track without slowing. They all like to race on basically their practice tracks and pitch a fit if there is something that breaks up that flow. I don't think we need crazy dangerous stuff, just challenging obstacles that mix it up for the guys. The first thing they should bring back from 2000 are big whoops and make them right out of the corner with no crazy runs at them. The strange thing to me is that the Dirt Works built the tracks in 2000 just like today so why don't they pull out a few of the better ones from back in the day and try them out now.
Hando
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2/15/2012 11:40am
ga_pike wrote:
Talk about a bitchfest!! Just go back to A1 this year and all the complaints about "the wall". That was a classic mid-90's fixture in SX...
Talk about a bitchfest!! Just go back to A1 this year and all the complaints about "the wall". That was a classic mid-90's fixture in SX but people hate it today. I'd love to see some big air to flat, super random rythmn sections, walls, etc. They need to bring back the into the stands stuff like Pontiac and the old LA races. How about some lane choice stuff?
Step over triple table tops are legit
Hando
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2/15/2012 11:43am
I forget which race it was (early 00 or 01) 125 SX and there was a quad that only one guy was jumping (forget who)

It looked awfully big.

I think in some cases there were obstacles (quads) that only 1 or 2 250cc guys were jumping.
FourFoopty
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2/15/2012 12:09pm
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions.

Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always been that way, right?

The difference is that the capabilities of the equipment that's being put on the stage to "Perform" in todays shows has come down.... The bikes are heavier and don't handle as well.

Dirt Works's basically works for the manufacturers. Their job is to build a stage that allows their bkes and riders to perform to their potential, so that they can put on the best possible show for the bike and equipment buying spectators.

When the best riders in the world were paid by the manufacturers to ride light, fast 2 stroke machines, tracks used to be made very estreme and difficult so that the full potential of the bikes and riders would be demonstrated. The best riders in the world were able to do much more extreme things on those bikes....

Now that the best riders in the world have it in all their contracts that they must ride bikes that don't perform as well in order to make their mortgage payments... tracks must be built much flatter with smaller jumps, gentle takeoff angles, smaller whoops, little tiny on/off table tops, and little tiny berms. The best riders in the world aren't able to do quite the same level of things on todays bikes....
moto282
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2/15/2012 12:21pm
FourFoopty wrote:
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions. Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always...
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions.

Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always been that way, right?

The difference is that the capabilities of the equipment that's being put on the stage to "Perform" in todays shows has come down.... The bikes are heavier and don't handle as well.

Dirt Works's basically works for the manufacturers. Their job is to build a stage that allows their bkes and riders to perform to their potential, so that they can put on the best possible show for the bike and equipment buying spectators.

When the best riders in the world were paid by the manufacturers to ride light, fast 2 stroke machines, tracks used to be made very estreme and difficult so that the full potential of the bikes and riders would be demonstrated. The best riders in the world were able to do much more extreme things on those bikes....

Now that the best riders in the world have it in all their contracts that they must ride bikes that don't perform as well in order to make their mortgage payments... tracks must be built much flatter with smaller jumps, gentle takeoff angles, smaller whoops, little tiny on/off table tops, and little tiny berms. The best riders in the world aren't able to do quite the same level of things on todays bikes....
LOL... Hope that was a joke.
ga_pike
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2/15/2012 12:57pm
I always try to tell my wife that my "performances" are more routine and quick because my equipment is too big and heavy for anything else too.

She buys that as much as I buy it for SX tracks.
Motodave15
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2/15/2012 1:12pm
Not trying to talk ish but i hope you were joking fourfoopty!

But im under the impression dirt werx. probably want's to build those type of tracks again, but under current contracts of feld and possibly even monster.. they have to adhere to a specific set of rules saying there has to be a triple along each side etc.

id personally prefer if they had rhythm sections along the outside lanes of the stadium, so they could make for more options on the inside go like, 2-3-3-2 and on the outside of the lane make it 3-2-3-1... a guy can only wish,
ecoultmx27
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2/15/2012 1:22pm
I'm not a big fan of the walls, seem to slow the action down and don't really provide passing opportunities. My favorite sections are the whoops and rhythm sections. St. Louis last year had a good one that Stewart busted out a triple triple on the first lap of the main last year, Villo picked it up too but Bubbs was already gone.

I guess maybe today's tracks aren't usually as peaky as some of the tracks awhile back, probably more for the safety of the riders than to suite the bikes.

Does anyone remember the Atlanta SX in 2002? That track had a crazy section that Kdub and Pastrana would quad into. We need a video of that one.
tblazier
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2/15/2012 2:10pm Edited Date/Time 2/15/2012 2:18pm
ecoultmx27 wrote:
I'm not a big fan of the walls, seem to slow the action down and don't really provide passing opportunities. My favorite sections are the whoops...
I'm not a big fan of the walls, seem to slow the action down and don't really provide passing opportunities. My favorite sections are the whoops and rhythm sections. St. Louis last year had a good one that Stewart busted out a triple triple on the first lap of the main last year, Villo picked it up too but Bubbs was already gone.

I guess maybe today's tracks aren't usually as peaky as some of the tracks awhile back, probably more for the safety of the riders than to suite the bikes.

Does anyone remember the Atlanta SX in 2002? That track had a crazy section that Kdub and Pastrana would quad into. We need a video of that one.
I was there that day and it was on that jump the Windham crashed and broke his femur. It was NASTY! Also almost ended his career. I don't think we need more insane do or die stuff, just more creative use obstacles. Walls and things may not be great for passing but they slow the pace and break up guys rhythm. Look at TP199's track from a couple of years ago and you will see what I mean.
tblazier
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2/15/2012 2:17pm
It was Anaheim 99 and the guy hulking it was Casey Lytle. It was one hell of a leap BTW.

The Jump is a 1:08 https://youtu.be/MyhqnFMYn6E
Adam43
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2/15/2012 2:32pm
I would definitely welcome a return to more technical tracks, but it would take more than just simply re-doing a design from 1999 or so.

Obstacles that made for a challenging rhythm section then could likely be cleared altogether with 450s. They basically don't require a bowl-berm and can hook up from slick insides. A cool track could certainly be made though.

I think the biggest problem is the dirt budget. Can't get too creative without the materials. Dirt Wurx seems to bring in only about 2/3s of the soil they used to, and seldom use the over-under bridge.
peelout
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2/15/2012 2:44pm
clearly they have a set of these and just substitute each piece, but stick to the same gay rhythm sections.

but instead of "snowman, flake, tree, angel, star, bell" it's "standard size triple, standard size on-off gay ass table top, standard size gay ass single to put you on top of the even gayer table top thing, small lame berm, standard size finish double, one lined sand section"
jtomasik
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2/15/2012 3:00pm
I miss the old Houston SX. They seemed to use a lot of the stadium floor, and the quad was pretty cool (although I'm sure Albertyn didn't think so...lol):

https://youtu.be/pDniLM2bvHE
Derpin' DJ
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2/15/2012 3:08pm
CR250Rider wrote:
tracks today are taylor made for heavier bikes with more hp
FourFoopty wrote:
Yeah and the slower acceleration of today's bikes...
LOL. Get off the crack, bro
Hank_Thrill
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2/15/2012 3:21pm Edited Date/Time 2/15/2012 3:28pm
Hando wrote:
Currently watching the 2001 SX races (thanks TBlazier) and I must say, the tracks were alot better/more technical and fun to watch compared to todays tracks...
Currently watching the 2001 SX races (thanks TBlazier) and I must say, the tracks were alot better/more technical and fun to watch compared to todays tracks which are pretty boring and cookie cutter IMO.

The tracks from the early 2000s seem to have alot more options..steeper jumps, dual lane whoops, step on/off/overs, better rythm sections, deep whoops, tunnel jumps, the occasional big quad that only 1 dude on a 125 would jump.. and todays tracks seem to have only one big section where only a few dudes will put something together that no one else is doing..the jumps are more distance-orientated as well

Would the racing be any better on a more tech/slower track?? I think the riders would have to have more control as it'd be easy to over jump stuff...
tblazier wrote:
I totally agree on the current tracks vs early 2000 tracks. If you watch these races from 10 years ago the track were way more gnarly...
I totally agree on the current tracks vs early 2000 tracks. If you watch these races from 10 years ago the track were way more gnarly in a lot of ways. I absolutely hate listening to the riders complain about how the tracks lack flow or places to pass. To me the best guys always are going to win no matter what and anytime you hear a rider saying there is no place to pass you have RV2 or CR22 blitzing through the pack and picking of 15 guys after a bad start. The fast guys always find a place to pass. I love retro stuff like walls and other obstacles that slow down the track and make it more interesting to watch. I think the riders only like tracks that allow them to jump and flow around the track without slowing. They all like to race on basically their practice tracks and pitch a fit if there is something that breaks up that flow. I don't think we need crazy dangerous stuff, just challenging obstacles that mix it up for the guys. The first thing they should bring back from 2000 are big whoops and make them right out of the corner with no crazy runs at them. The strange thing to me is that the Dirt Works built the tracks in 2000 just like today so why don't they pull out a few of the better ones from back in the day and try them out now.
I agree. I like to see stuff that breaks up the flow as well. Supercross riding has advanced so much guys have the tracks figured out before they even ride them (at least for cookie-cuter tracks). All the weird stuff seems to throw everyone for a loop. Take A1 for example, riders were finding and developing new lines throughout the night show, when most these guys have the tracks figured out by the first practice session.

Also, if I were Rich Winkler, I'd be designing more flat corners into tracks (another thing racers probably hate). The 2010 tracks had a couple and I thought they made for excellent racing. Guys would go around the inside and double, or go wide and triple, and since there was no berm to rail, it made both lanes just about equal in speed.
FourFoopty
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2/15/2012 6:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/15/2012 7:28pm
FourFoopty wrote:
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions. Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always...
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions.

Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always been that way, right?

The difference is that the capabilities of the equipment that's being put on the stage to "Perform" in todays shows has come down.... The bikes are heavier and don't handle as well.

Dirt Works's basically works for the manufacturers. Their job is to build a stage that allows their bkes and riders to perform to their potential, so that they can put on the best possible show for the bike and equipment buying spectators.

When the best riders in the world were paid by the manufacturers to ride light, fast 2 stroke machines, tracks used to be made very estreme and difficult so that the full potential of the bikes and riders would be demonstrated. The best riders in the world were able to do much more extreme things on those bikes....

Now that the best riders in the world have it in all their contracts that they must ride bikes that don't perform as well in order to make their mortgage payments... tracks must be built much flatter with smaller jumps, gentle takeoff angles, smaller whoops, little tiny on/off table tops, and little tiny berms. The best riders in the world aren't able to do quite the same level of things on todays bikes....
moto282 wrote:
LOL... Hope that was a joke.
Well, so far it seems like most people agree that the tracks of today are made up of smaller little obstacles.

Do the smaller, weaker tracks of today make sense if the bikes are actually "Better" dirtbikes now???

A THUMPER HUMPER in the industry might say - "We have to make the tracks tiny now with little jumps, little whoops, little berms, because the bikes are so fast now that we don't want to put any dirtbike obstacles in the way...."

BUT - That sounds like some bullFoop you might hear as a dealer tells you he's got dusty 4 strokes for sale at a discount... Nice try but that doesn't make sense.

Do the tracks have to be built small and flat now because the 4Foopty's are SO fast that they can't race on big obstacles??? Would they be jumping "Full Sections"???

A FOOPER TROOPER in the industry might say - "IF the tracks were built with those big jumps, big whoops, and big berms nowadays, the 4Foopty's would just jump the whole stadium and bounce off the roof... No one would have to truck them to the next round because they could just JUMP to the next round..."

BUT - When you watch the races with the big jumps and whoops in them, there were 4Foopty's in the races, and they weren't jumping whole sections... that's for sure. Maybe if a triple counts as a triple during the heats and main, but counts as a "Full Section" during the Semi's and LCQ... If that was the case then yeah, Foopers jumped lots of "Full Sections".
Hando
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2/16/2012 6:08am
SX needs to go back to the old days in regards to track design.

Brap
Loose
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2/16/2012 6:46am
I love the old tracks and loved the way riders almost had to fight for the whole race but if we went back to more technical and difficult tracks then the top riders would come across lappers 5 or 6 laps earlier.
Does that make it better?
Same goes with 30 +2 in SX, yes the lap times are too short, yes the main event is too short but who wants to watch the slower riders get lapped twice or three times? Would that make SX more popular to the general public? How much harder would it be for a rider to get sponsorship dollars if he is getting lapped twice?

Longer tracks and more parity between the bikes is what I think would improve the racing overall
Bob454
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2/16/2012 7:53am Edited Date/Time 2/16/2012 8:00am
FourFoopty wrote:
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions. Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always...
Dirt Works is doing their work today with a different set of instructions.

Pro Racing is all about selling product. That isn't anything new it's always been that way, right?

The difference is that the capabilities of the equipment that's being put on the stage to "Perform" in todays shows has come down.... The bikes are heavier and don't handle as well.

Dirt Works's basically works for the manufacturers. Their job is to build a stage that allows their bkes and riders to perform to their potential, so that they can put on the best possible show for the bike and equipment buying spectators.

When the best riders in the world were paid by the manufacturers to ride light, fast 2 stroke machines, tracks used to be made very estreme and difficult so that the full potential of the bikes and riders would be demonstrated. The best riders in the world were able to do much more extreme things on those bikes....

Now that the best riders in the world have it in all their contracts that they must ride bikes that don't perform as well in order to make their mortgage payments... tracks must be built much flatter with smaller jumps, gentle takeoff angles, smaller whoops, little tiny on/off table tops, and little tiny berms. The best riders in the world aren't able to do quite the same level of things on todays bikes....
moto282 wrote:
LOL... Hope that was a joke.
FourFoopty wrote:
Well, so far it seems like most people agree that the tracks of today are made up of smaller little obstacles. [b]Do the smaller, weaker tracks...
Well, so far it seems like most people agree that the tracks of today are made up of smaller little obstacles.

Do the smaller, weaker tracks of today make sense if the bikes are actually "Better" dirtbikes now???

A THUMPER HUMPER in the industry might say - "We have to make the tracks tiny now with little jumps, little whoops, little berms, because the bikes are so fast now that we don't want to put any dirtbike obstacles in the way...."

BUT - That sounds like some bullFoop you might hear as a dealer tells you he's got dusty 4 strokes for sale at a discount... Nice try but that doesn't make sense.

Do the tracks have to be built small and flat now because the 4Foopty's are SO fast that they can't race on big obstacles??? Would they be jumping "Full Sections"???

A FOOPER TROOPER in the industry might say - "IF the tracks were built with those big jumps, big whoops, and big berms nowadays, the 4Foopty's would just jump the whole stadium and bounce off the roof... No one would have to truck them to the next round because they could just JUMP to the next round..."

BUT - When you watch the races with the big jumps and whoops in them, there were 4Foopty's in the races, and they weren't jumping whole sections... that's for sure. Maybe if a triple counts as a triple during the heats and main, but counts as a "Full Section" during the Semi's and LCQ... If that was the case then yeah, Foopers jumped lots of "Full Sections".
Fourfoorpty....have another one bro you are getting more hilarious everytime you open your mouth. Has no one ever told you that you never go full retard dude?

For reference http://vimeo.com/m/3945205
ford832
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2/16/2012 11:42am Edited Date/Time 2/16/2012 11:43am
tblazier wrote:
It was Anaheim 99 and the guy hulking it was Casey Lytle. It was one hell of a leap BTW. The Jump is a 1:08 https://youtu.be/MyhqnFMYn6E...
It was Anaheim 99 and the guy hulking it was Casey Lytle. It was one hell of a leap BTW.

The Jump is a 1:08 https://youtu.be/MyhqnFMYn6E
Wow.It's hard to believe how far we've come in a few short years.That track layout sucked.Not only that;the bikes,the sound of the bikes,the racing ,the commentating and the coverage all sucked too.Way too much time devoted to the bikes.Where's the interviews or rider profiles while the race is in progress?Where are the Nascars and Monster trucks?Cripes,you wouldn't know from the rider interviews who their sponsors were.It's a good thing I could read McGraths on his jersey.
It was good to see the young version of the "old" guys .Other than that,the good old days are now.Silly

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