MXA's KTM 250 Shootout

Grieby54
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Grieby54 2/9/2012 2:34pm
2/9/2012 2:34pm
FourFoopty wrote:
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes. Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the...
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes.

Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the way to 700,000 RPM"... But what the crap pushers never seem to mention is the fact that the Primary Ratios on the FOOPERS aren't the same... They are geared lower to help them out while they are chunking along in the lower ranges.

Fumpers NEED all those RPM's becauese they have smaller Primary Gears. All this get's you, the owner, is more metal flake circulating in your oil...

That's why even though a FOOPER might be twice the size of a Motocross Bike, it's not appreciably faster. Because in effect, the 4 Stroke is pedaling itself to death in a lower gear.
Would you just stfu already? We get it, you think two foops are sooper - nobody gives a shit. Nobody besides KTM is going to spend another dime on them, because they're all but dead and gone.
peelout
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peelout 2/9/2012 2:36pm
2/9/2012 2:36pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 2:38pm
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 2/9/2012 3:15pm
2/9/2012 3:15pm
I love the 2 strokes. But why is calling 13,000 rpm 4t "healthy" - wrong? F1 Engines are governed to 18,000 RPM & if they weren't would be doing well over 20,000, close to double what you're talking about.
newmann
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newmann 2/9/2012 3:31pm
2/9/2012 3:31pm
Faceaz wrote:
I love the 2 strokes. But why is calling 13,000 rpm 4t "healthy" - wrong? F1 Engines are governed to 18,000 RPM & if they weren't...
I love the 2 strokes. But why is calling 13,000 rpm 4t "healthy" - wrong? F1 Engines are governed to 18,000 RPM & if they weren't would be doing well over 20,000, close to double what you're talking about.
F1 engines have opposing rods and pistons to balance the rotating assemblies. A single cylinder engine turning 13,500 rpm will pretty much scatter itself from vibration without having the counterbalancer. Even with the counterbalancer life expectancy on a single cylinder engine at that point is limited. Without the rpm's the 4 won't make the power of the 2. Not knowing much about this stuff, I could be totally wrong though....Smile

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newmann
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newmann 2/9/2012 3:32pm
2/9/2012 3:32pm
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the benefit of the 125. Amazed and dumbfounded by the masses that don't though.
Hut
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Hut 2/9/2012 3:49pm
2/9/2012 3:49pm
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
I agree with your whole "it's fucking crazy" premise.
motomike137
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motomike137 2/9/2012 4:27pm
2/9/2012 4:27pm
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
Hut wrote:
I agree with your whole "it's fucking crazy" premise.
these ^^
catatonic
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catatonic 2/9/2012 4:32pm
2/9/2012 4:32pm
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
newmann wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the benefit of the 125. Amazed and dumbfounded by the masses that don't though.
If nothing else kids are missing out on the fun factor of a 125.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 2/9/2012 5:22pm
2/9/2012 5:22pm
For what it's worth, thought I'd pass on that Chip has three demo '12 150SX's listed in the classified section at KTMTalk; $5300
neverwasfastenuf 2/9/2012 5:41pm
2/9/2012 5:41pm
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
newmann wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the benefit of the 125. Amazed and dumbfounded by the masses that don't though.
The worst part about jumping straight to the 250F is not only the power difference but the weight of the damn thing like Peelout said. What's the weight of an 85 versus the weight of a 250F? And then when you get something that heavy traveling fast it just makes it worse for the smaller rider.
umagumadog
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umagumadog 2/9/2012 6:02pm
2/9/2012 6:02pm
Where's Super Hunky when you need him?
keeptwostrokesalive 2/9/2012 6:26pm
2/9/2012 6:26pm
FourFoopty wrote:
https://youtu.be/mcMG21fR56o
As you can tell by my avatar name i love two strokes. But you are pushing it to the extreme. You are not helping our case by posting up a lot of info you belive to be facts but in truth are mostly just false statements coming from your make believe world.
FourFoopty
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FourFoopty 2/9/2012 6:30pm
2/9/2012 6:30pm
What is make believe? The smaller Primary Gears? That's real...

And the video is just funny, beause it's just some fart sounds dubbed in behind total bull crap.
keeptwostrokesalive 2/9/2012 6:43pm
2/9/2012 6:43pm
FourFoopty wrote:
What is make believe? The smaller Primary Gears? That's real... And the video is just funny, beause it's just some fart sounds dubbed in behind total...
What is make believe? The smaller Primary Gears? That's real...

And the video is just funny, beause it's just some fart sounds dubbed in behind total bull crap.
I thought it was really annoying.
FourFoopty
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FourFoopty 2/9/2012 6:46pm
2/9/2012 6:46pm
Glad you enjoyed it.
fader418
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fader418 2/9/2012 9:19pm
2/9/2012 9:19pm
Only problem with this thread is you guys actually read MXA!
CamP
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CamP 2/9/2012 9:55pm
2/9/2012 9:55pm
fader418 wrote:
Only problem with this thread is you guys actually read MXA!
Nobody does technical reviews better than MXA.

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BAMX
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BAMX 2/9/2012 10:23pm
2/9/2012 10:23pm
FourFoopty wrote:
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes. Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the...
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes.

Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the way to 700,000 RPM"... But what the crap pushers never seem to mention is the fact that the Primary Ratios on the FOOPERS aren't the same... They are geared lower to help them out while they are chunking along in the lower ranges.

Fumpers NEED all those RPM's becauese they have smaller Primary Gears. All this get's you, the owner, is more metal flake circulating in your oil...

That's why even though a FOOPER might be twice the size of a Motocross Bike, it's not appreciably faster. Because in effect, the 4 Stroke is pedaling itself to death in a lower gear.
Grieby54 wrote:
Would you just stfu already? We get it, you think two foops are sooper - nobody gives a shit. Nobody besides KTM is going to spend...
Would you just stfu already? We get it, you think two foops are sooper - nobody gives a shit. Nobody besides KTM is going to spend another dime on them, because they're all but dead and gone.
You know why KTM sees value in 2 strokes. It's because they can't keep them on the showroom floor. I went down to my local so cal KTM shop to go look at 150's. The salesmans response was "good luck they sold out soon as they came in". "I do have plenty of YZ250F's that I can make you a deal on". "I still have a couple 2010's that I can really deal on"
CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 2/9/2012 10:53pm
2/9/2012 10:53pm
FourFoopty wrote:
What is make believe? The smaller Primary Gears? That's real... And the video is just funny, beause it's just some fart sounds dubbed in behind total...
What is make believe? The smaller Primary Gears? That's real...

And the video is just funny, beause it's just some fart sounds dubbed in behind total bull crap.
can you show me this tiny primary gear next to a normal 2 stroke one?

I liked the video, btw
FourFoopty
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FourFoopty 2/10/2012 12:12am
2/10/2012 12:12am
FourFoopty wrote:
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes. Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the...
The really rich info surfaces when you look into the Primary Reduction Ratios on the bikes.

Much is always made out of ....."FOOPERS rev all the way to 700,000 RPM"... But what the crap pushers never seem to mention is the fact that the Primary Ratios on the FOOPERS aren't the same... They are geared lower to help them out while they are chunking along in the lower ranges.

Fumpers NEED all those RPM's becauese they have smaller Primary Gears. All this get's you, the owner, is more metal flake circulating in your oil...

That's why even though a FOOPER might be twice the size of a Motocross Bike, it's not appreciably faster. Because in effect, the 4 Stroke is pedaling itself to death in a lower gear.
Grieby54 wrote:
Would you just stfu already? We get it, you think two foops are sooper - nobody gives a shit. Nobody besides KTM is going to spend...
Would you just stfu already? We get it, you think two foops are sooper - nobody gives a shit. Nobody besides KTM is going to spend another dime on them, because they're all but dead and gone.
BAMX wrote:
You know why KTM sees value in 2 strokes. It's because they can't keep them on the showroom floor. I went down to my local so...
You know why KTM sees value in 2 strokes. It's because they can't keep them on the showroom floor. I went down to my local so cal KTM shop to go look at 150's. The salesmans response was "good luck they sold out soon as they came in". "I do have plenty of YZ250F's that I can make you a deal on". "I still have a couple 2010's that I can really deal on"
Here's how 125cc KTM's stack up against Double Sized Foopers.... Ryno and Sorby make the Fooper Pilots look like they're riding Donkeys in the race.

I'll get that teck info also.

https://youtu.be/y9yuOEn1eHA
GuyB
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GuyB 2/10/2012 12:26am
2/10/2012 12:26am
I agree that it gets tiresome. 2003? Really?
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 2/10/2012 12:34am
2/10/2012 12:34am
Two things wrong with using that video as an argument

1) You're comparing a bike just starting it's 3rd year of racing development to bikes with decades of development.

2) You don't think a riders skill would play more of a factor than what bike their on?
FourFoopty
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FourFoopty 2/10/2012 2:25am
2/10/2012 2:25am
I agree that when you watch this race, it looks like the 4 strokes were at a disadvantage. I guess maybe the AMA fell short of giving them all the help they needed at this point.

True, they had a HUGE displacement advantage 250 4 Stroke cc's vs just half of that for the 2's.

But maybe the AMA could have done a little more to help out instead of short changing the 4 Strokes the way they did... Maybe they could have let them have 300 4 Stroke cc's in the 125 class and then that would have been more fair.

Maybe they could have changed the rules so that the optimal fuel for the 125's would no longer be allowed... Oh wait... I think they did do that....

Maybe a 4 Stoke "Head Start" program could have been instroduced where they let the 250 4 strokes leave the gate 20 seconds early.... I'm dissapointed in the AMA for not thnking of that and giving the disadvantaged 4 strokes more of a fiar shot...

Maybe a special AMA "Tire Inflation" rule could have been put in place allowing 4 Stroke motocycles to have both tires inflated during practice and racing, while 2 stroke motorcycles could choose to inflate either the front OR rear tire.... but not both. Or maybe a Special AMA rule requiring eliptical wheels for 125's in the 125 class.... while 250's in the 125 class could still run round wheels..

This is why I'm dissapointed in my AMA... They just didn't do enough to give those poor, downtrodden Double The Size bikes enough unfair advantages and a thick enough featherbed.

If the AMA had just made it a little easier for the 250cc 4 Strokes to compete in the 125cc class, instead of presenting all these rediculous rules limiting them to only Double the engine size they probably wouldn't seem as rediculous and corrupt to the average dirtbike enthusiast as they do.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 2/10/2012 3:24am
2/10/2012 3:24am
Yep, you're a delusional twat.
Madmax31
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Madmax31 2/10/2012 5:06am
2/10/2012 5:06am
fader418 wrote:
Only problem with this thread is you guys actually read MXA!
CamP wrote:
Nobody does technical reviews better than MXA.
Actually the only magazine worth reading to learn something about the products/bikes you are about to buy. They aren't perfect but the closest we have. No other mag out there touches them on product review.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 2/10/2012 5:23am
2/10/2012 5:23am
Faceaz wrote:
I love the 2 strokes. But why is calling 13,000 rpm 4t "healthy" - wrong? F1 Engines are governed to 18,000 RPM & if they weren't...
I love the 2 strokes. But why is calling 13,000 rpm 4t "healthy" - wrong? F1 Engines are governed to 18,000 RPM & if they weren't would be doing well over 20,000, close to double what you're talking about.
newmann wrote:
F1 engines have opposing rods and pistons to balance the rotating assemblies. A single cylinder engine turning 13,500 rpm will pretty much scatter itself from vibration...
F1 engines have opposing rods and pistons to balance the rotating assemblies. A single cylinder engine turning 13,500 rpm will pretty much scatter itself from vibration without having the counterbalancer. Even with the counterbalancer life expectancy on a single cylinder engine at that point is limited. Without the rpm's the 4 won't make the power of the 2. Not knowing much about this stuff, I could be totally wrong though....Smile
Bottom ends can take it with a counterbalancer. Multi-cylinder engines, like F1 are a V, not opposing. Valve float is the limiting factor.
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flyinb501 2/10/2012 5:46am
2/10/2012 5:46am
peelout wrote:
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years...
it's still crazy to me that 12 years ago i was moving from the 85 class to the 125 class on an actual 125. 2 years after i raced 125's, i got a 250 smoker to race as well. it was amazing how much more power and weight there was, my little body was nowhere near ready for that kind of bike at that age.

now, fast forward 12 years, and these little guys are getting off 85's and straight to 250's (four and two strokes)... it's fucking crazy that the 125 has been made obsolete just like that... i probably would have never gotten to the point i did in my racing by jumping straight to a 250, that's a HUGE jump in my opinion.

thanks for posting, that is interesting to see the HP versus RPM on the two bikes.
Agreed.
Matt Fisher 2/10/2012 8:35am
2/10/2012 8:35am
Denn700 wrote:
Why does a kid have to go to a 250? There is still a schoolboy and supermini class at most track?
They don't have to, but if you want to buy a new bike there are only 2 "viable" choices with 125's. The supermini's are a money pit- new rings every 5-10 hours, new piston every 10-20 hours. With their stroker motors, they wear out parts very quickly.
FourFoopty
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FourFoopty 2/10/2012 1:13pm
2/10/2012 1:13pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Yep, you're a delusional twat.
Well, I'm only starting out my third year of development.

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