Honda finally gets its way

500 Mike
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2/4/2012 6:22am
While I do agree that MX Sports is essentially run by the OEM's, I don't think it's fair to throw Dave Sr. under the bus on this one. That's hitting below the belt.
wardy
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2/4/2012 6:28am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2012 7:00am
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to happen and keep the 85cc classes pure. Even when Honda came with it's full on bullcrap and tried to introduce this machine to riders 7 year old and up. This happened many years ago. We denied it then and again voted NOT to ALLOW this bike in the 85cc class as recently as last October.

Honda simply has contiuned to push it's agenda, remember the "150" shootout stuff and all the rest of that push. Well here we are.

Marketing and Being the big boy on the block was showing it's ugly head with this issue. They had quite a few people influenced heavily at the meetings, one stood up after it failed the vote and yelled "there goes Honda contingency" and another stated "we will just do it anyway".

Well here is the National Amatuer AMA championship series doing what ever it wants as usual. With many of the same players in this game pulling thier series out of the AMA completely. These are the same people who have bellied up to the proverbial bar and have benefited from years and years of the ama foundation and structure.

AMA congress years ago made a class for the bike (as the bike fit NO classes and so classes were made for it) we wanted to limit the super mini class to 105, and not 112 and try to keep this thing on a level playing field. We all have seen the four strokes come a long way and are pretty confident that this 150 will be the next class killer as if it takes off it will progress like the other ones have.

Now remember, not ONE person in the meeting could answer the question "what rider, parent, MEMEBER etc" has sent emails and complained to anyone in the room that it's unfair and they want to race the 150 in the 85cc class. You could hear a pin drop.

So whats the answer?? Simple. THe people in the room pushing this agenda was motorcycle dealers, and very large promoters. Who have over the years conviently placed themselves in the rules making room. Typical politic type stuff.

They of course all click together and now this "supplemental" rule change happens.

So before ya go all off and well there is AMA doing it's stuff again...............Supplemental rules allows for this as this class falls with in the structure of the insurance and age groups. So it can be done, even though ama congress didn't want it by pure votes.

Hopefully it in 3 years doesn't destroy the last cost effective class we have in moto. Hopefully it doesn't force the other OEM's to produce a machine that they don't want to, but have to,trying to stay competitive.

There will be many new rules coming from this and many other issues popped up this winter, time to get the house in order and see thats things are more reflective of what the membership wants and stopped the extended marketing plans of the big boys with thier friends.
2/4/2012 6:29am
500 Mike wrote:
While I do agree that MX Sports is essentially run by the OEM's, I don't think it's fair to throw Dave Sr. under the bus on...
While I do agree that MX Sports is essentially run by the OEM's, I don't think it's fair to throw Dave Sr. under the bus on this one. That's hitting below the belt.
Agreed, like something or not, like someone or not, their family should be off limits!
wardy
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2/4/2012 6:35am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2012 6:39am
500 Mike wrote:
While I do agree that MX Sports is essentially run by the OEM's, I don't think it's fair to throw Dave Sr. under the bus on...
While I do agree that MX Sports is essentially run by the OEM's, I don't think it's fair to throw Dave Sr. under the bus on this one. That's hitting below the belt.
Agreed, like something or not, like someone or not, their family should be off limits!
it surely doesn't have to be personal. I think that Mx Sports is the best thing that ever happened to Motocross in this country. THE HUGE BUT, is that some times when the 1000 lb gorilla gets let out of the cage it needs to understand that it always can't have it's way. Thats when I say it is also sometimes the worse thing to happen, as it doesn't play well with others.


Today it's killing off the farm team and they have no clue.

The Shop

2/4/2012 6:39am
Make them make a 85cc 4 stroke and race that! Oh wait it would get waxed bad, let the others run a150 2 stroke against there 4 banger..forgot you can't do that because it would be unfair against Honda and the crf 150. Funny how this displacement rule only goes one way! How bad or how hard could it be to have it cc for cc? You would be able to hear them falling on there swords from here if they passed a double cc advantage for 2 strokes;-) heck just let it be a fair fight.
CRFracer117
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2/4/2012 6:40am
Yeap lets just go ahead a keep raising the cost for an entry level sport! what a freaking joke double displacement again there goes the 85 class what next, when will Honda release there CRF 125 to compete in the 60cc class?
2/4/2012 6:40am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2012 6:41am
This is probably my 5th to go out. I sent a letter to Honda, but no reply. I'll just let that sucker set on the stand, every day or so just rev it up. At this point I really don't care.
wardy
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2/4/2012 6:42am
when they built the bike the class already allowed for a 125cc four stroke. So to make sure they were dominant they built a 150 which as i hear it is greatly detuned and can be tweaked to be much better. We will see 15k 150's and let the bike claiming begin.

I think a sound meter at the nationals is the way to correct a few things?????????
dcg141
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2/4/2012 6:51am
wardy wrote:
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to...
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to happen and keep the 85cc classes pure. Even when Honda came with it's full on bullcrap and tried to introduce this machine to riders 7 year old and up. This happened many years ago. We denied it then and again voted NOT to ALLOW this bike in the 85cc class as recently as last October.

Honda simply has contiuned to push it's agenda, remember the "150" shootout stuff and all the rest of that push. Well here we are.

Marketing and Being the big boy on the block was showing it's ugly head with this issue. They had quite a few people influenced heavily at the meetings, one stood up after it failed the vote and yelled "there goes Honda contingency" and another stated "we will just do it anyway".

Well here is the National Amatuer AMA championship series doing what ever it wants as usual. With many of the same players in this game pulling thier series out of the AMA completely. These are the same people who have bellied up to the proverbial bar and have benefited from years and years of the ama foundation and structure.

AMA congress years ago made a class for the bike (as the bike fit NO classes and so classes were made for it) we wanted to limit the super mini class to 105, and not 112 and try to keep this thing on a level playing field. We all have seen the four strokes come a long way and are pretty confident that this 150 will be the next class killer as if it takes off it will progress like the other ones have.

Now remember, not ONE person in the meeting could answer the question "what rider, parent, MEMEBER etc" has sent emails and complained to anyone in the room that it's unfair and they want to race the 150 in the 85cc class. You could hear a pin drop.

So whats the answer?? Simple. THe people in the room pushing this agenda was motorcycle dealers, and very large promoters. Who have over the years conviently placed themselves in the rules making room. Typical politic type stuff.

They of course all click together and now this "supplemental" rule change happens.

So before ya go all off and well there is AMA doing it's stuff again...............Supplemental rules allows for this as this class falls with in the structure of the insurance and age groups. So it can be done, even though ama congress didn't want it by pure votes.

Hopefully it in 3 years doesn't destroy the last cost effective class we have in moto. Hopefully it doesn't force the other OEM's to produce a machine that they don't want to, but have to,trying to stay competitive.

There will be many new rules coming from this and many other issues popped up this winter, time to get the house in order and see thats things are more reflective of what the membership wants and stopped the extended marketing plans of the big boys with thier friends.
Wardy thx for clearing that up for us. This industry is so weak in the knees for Honda its embarrasing.
wardy
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2/4/2012 6:55am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2012 7:19am
I love my honda's but the company pisses me off with this crap. They have sent people to our meetings for years and arm twisting is not even secret. in 010 I had that dude call me out and ask what and where i was from then wrote it down....

LOL yea i know in here that is called "red helicopters" from the same people suckin off the oem's teat.
Flatliner
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2/4/2012 7:12am
wardy wrote:
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to...
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to happen and keep the 85cc classes pure. Even when Honda came with it's full on bullcrap and tried to introduce this machine to riders 7 year old and up. This happened many years ago. We denied it then and again voted NOT to ALLOW this bike in the 85cc class as recently as last October.

Honda simply has contiuned to push it's agenda, remember the "150" shootout stuff and all the rest of that push. Well here we are.

Marketing and Being the big boy on the block was showing it's ugly head with this issue. They had quite a few people influenced heavily at the meetings, one stood up after it failed the vote and yelled "there goes Honda contingency" and another stated "we will just do it anyway".

Well here is the National Amatuer AMA championship series doing what ever it wants as usual. With many of the same players in this game pulling thier series out of the AMA completely. These are the same people who have bellied up to the proverbial bar and have benefited from years and years of the ama foundation and structure.

AMA congress years ago made a class for the bike (as the bike fit NO classes and so classes were made for it) we wanted to limit the super mini class to 105, and not 112 and try to keep this thing on a level playing field. We all have seen the four strokes come a long way and are pretty confident that this 150 will be the next class killer as if it takes off it will progress like the other ones have.

Now remember, not ONE person in the meeting could answer the question "what rider, parent, MEMEBER etc" has sent emails and complained to anyone in the room that it's unfair and they want to race the 150 in the 85cc class. You could hear a pin drop.

So whats the answer?? Simple. THe people in the room pushing this agenda was motorcycle dealers, and very large promoters. Who have over the years conviently placed themselves in the rules making room. Typical politic type stuff.

They of course all click together and now this "supplemental" rule change happens.

So before ya go all off and well there is AMA doing it's stuff again...............Supplemental rules allows for this as this class falls with in the structure of the insurance and age groups. So it can be done, even though ama congress didn't want it by pure votes.

Hopefully it in 3 years doesn't destroy the last cost effective class we have in moto. Hopefully it doesn't force the other OEM's to produce a machine that they don't want to, but have to,trying to stay competitive.

There will be many new rules coming from this and many other issues popped up this winter, time to get the house in order and see thats things are more reflective of what the membership wants and stopped the extended marketing plans of the big boys with thier friends.
dcg141 wrote:
Wardy thx for clearing that up for us. This industry is so weak in the knees for Honda its embarrasing.
It really is. I can't believe one manufacturer has this kind of pull.
2/4/2012 7:13am
Wardy is spot on.

I hope this thread goes 20 pages.

Honda's products are second to none. Theyre love for racing is genuine and appreciated. But their politics have always been detrimental to all the sports they are involved in.
peelout
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2/4/2012 7:21am
moar of Jennifer's canyon please
the Pirate
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2/4/2012 7:30am
Go Honda!
2/4/2012 7:35am
Wait a second. I thought the 150r was slower than the 85's??? Not to mention it is almost 20 lbs heavier than a 85, which is a big deal for a little kid.
2/4/2012 7:37am
the 150 has been over here for a while- we were talking to a guy in holland last year (who's son had been racing in the schoolboy british championship) - he was saying he had spent the biggest part of 30k (£) just in engines over a season!! Pretty much all the top riders in the british schoolboy championship are now on 150's, the general opinion is that you have to spend at least as much as the bike has cost, on top of the price of buying it to be competetive in that class now- not a good thing for schoolboy motocross, its becoming a rich mans sport!
wardy
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2/4/2012 7:38am
Wait a second. I thought the 150r was slower than the 85's??? Not to mention it is almost 20 lbs heavier than a 85, which is...
Wait a second. I thought the 150r was slower than the 85's??? Not to mention it is almost 20 lbs heavier than a 85, which is a big deal for a little kid.
today they are stock.

and yes 20lbs heavier is a big deal for "little" kids.
2/4/2012 7:38am
Wait a second. I thought the 150r was slower than the 85's??? Not to mention it is almost 20 lbs heavier than a 85, which is...
Wait a second. I thought the 150r was slower than the 85's??? Not to mention it is almost 20 lbs heavier than a 85, which is a big deal for a little kid.
I think the point is, that as standard the 150 is slower, but it has the potential to be much, much faster (and easier to ride fast) if you throw enough £££££ at it. Which in turn will make the bike less reliable (alot more expensive to run)- be interested to hear eric gorrs thoughts on the 150!!!
2/4/2012 7:39am
wardy wrote:
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to...
Just so you guys know and before you all pile on AMA for this crap.. AMA congress has voted contiunally to NOT ALLOW this class to happen and keep the 85cc classes pure. Even when Honda came with it's full on bullcrap and tried to introduce this machine to riders 7 year old and up. This happened many years ago. We denied it then and again voted NOT to ALLOW this bike in the 85cc class as recently as last October.

Honda simply has contiuned to push it's agenda, remember the "150" shootout stuff and all the rest of that push. Well here we are.

Marketing and Being the big boy on the block was showing it's ugly head with this issue. They had quite a few people influenced heavily at the meetings, one stood up after it failed the vote and yelled "there goes Honda contingency" and another stated "we will just do it anyway".

Well here is the National Amatuer AMA championship series doing what ever it wants as usual. With many of the same players in this game pulling thier series out of the AMA completely. These are the same people who have bellied up to the proverbial bar and have benefited from years and years of the ama foundation and structure.

AMA congress years ago made a class for the bike (as the bike fit NO classes and so classes were made for it) we wanted to limit the super mini class to 105, and not 112 and try to keep this thing on a level playing field. We all have seen the four strokes come a long way and are pretty confident that this 150 will be the next class killer as if it takes off it will progress like the other ones have.

Now remember, not ONE person in the meeting could answer the question "what rider, parent, MEMEBER etc" has sent emails and complained to anyone in the room that it's unfair and they want to race the 150 in the 85cc class. You could hear a pin drop.

So whats the answer?? Simple. THe people in the room pushing this agenda was motorcycle dealers, and very large promoters. Who have over the years conviently placed themselves in the rules making room. Typical politic type stuff.

They of course all click together and now this "supplemental" rule change happens.

So before ya go all off and well there is AMA doing it's stuff again...............Supplemental rules allows for this as this class falls with in the structure of the insurance and age groups. So it can be done, even though ama congress didn't want it by pure votes.

Hopefully it in 3 years doesn't destroy the last cost effective class we have in moto. Hopefully it doesn't force the other OEM's to produce a machine that they don't want to, but have to,trying to stay competitive.

There will be many new rules coming from this and many other issues popped up this winter, time to get the house in order and see thats things are more reflective of what the membership wants and stopped the extended marketing plans of the big boys with thier friends.
great post
wardy
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2/4/2012 7:40am
What needs to be done is leave the thing in the super mini class and keep the 2 stoke in that class stock bore 105 is a good fit. Puting it in the 85Sr class isn't the best place for it. But that doesn't sell Hondas. So here we are.
dcg141
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2/4/2012 8:14am
As a dealer for another brand it gets pretty old watching them hold the entire industry by the balls.
newmann
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2/4/2012 8:30am
dcg141 wrote:
As a dealer for another brand it gets pretty old watching them hold the entire industry by the balls.
Tell that to DC.

And Wardy's red helicopters??? Guy B should be along soon to make some silly remark about tin foil hats and such. Usually does. LOL
wardy
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2/4/2012 8:42am
thats why i said it newmann.

I read much more then i post in here. funny how all the koolaide is red. Tongue
GuyB
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2/4/2012 8:53am
Honda is evil in the same way that posts about Honda being evil are intelligent.
2/4/2012 8:54am
GuyB wrote:
Honda is evil in the same way that posts about Honda being evil are intelligent.
Smile
ATKpilot99
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2/4/2012 8:59am
GuyB wrote:
Honda is evil in the same way that posts about Honda being evil are intelligent.
I don't think anyone is saying they're evil. They're more like the whining little kid who will take his ball and go home if he doesn't get his way.
jammin76tx
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2/4/2012 9:14am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying they're evil. They're more like the whining little kid who will take his ball and go home if he doesn't...
I don't think anyone is saying they're evil. They're more like the whining little kid who will take his ball and go home if he doesn't get his way.
No, GuyB said they are evil, twice in one post. At least that's what I got out of it. See below.

GuyB wrote: Honda is evil in the same way that posts about Honda being evil are intelligent.
josh8811
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2/4/2012 9:20am
I can't imagine how much work maintaining a 150F for a fast kid would be.. Not to mention cost..

I guess this post didn't surprise me.. I thought this was the norm now, for 150F's to be in the 85 class..

KTM makes a 105 smoker.. I think it would be better to make a machine for the kids who are 13-16. Those who are physically to big for an 85 or 150 but not ready for a 250F..

It is kinda sad what the 4-brokes have done. I understand some of the benefit to the valvers (I own one myself now) I guess what's sad is kids wanting/needing them to race competitively.

I would/will refuse to buy my kid a 4-broke.. I'm not going to lay may financial balls on the table.. College is WAY more important..
wardy
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2/4/2012 9:22am
there ya go newmann and it didn't take 3 pages.

everything I posted Mr B is facts i can back up. its the way i roll. but thats ok i have been called much worse then "stupid".
2/4/2012 9:24am
wardy,

If Honda has systematically corrupted the rules making process by filling it with it's own drones, when is it time to start a new sanctioning body?

I know you respect what the AMA is, and what it has stood for but the job of a sanctioning body is to uphold the sports integrity above anything else. Write fair rules. And enforce them. The AMA is succeeding at none of that. Fighting Honda is a lost cause within the AMA arena is it not?

At what point do you, and all the other people that have sacrificed with this sports best interest at heart, take YOUR ball and go home. Its time for that. Its fucked. And it isnt going to be fixed. Its time to start over. This is no different than those who think they can fix Wall Street or Washington DC. Its time to start over. The system is corrupted and the battle is unwinnable IMO.


In a dream scenario, you guys would start your own deal. And MX Sports would break away with its own Pro series. And all the tracks would be unified under the same sanctioning body. But in time, that would get corrupted too, just like the AMA, FIM, and any other sport Honda participates in. So starting over isnt the solution. I certainly dont know what is the solution.

Where do things go from here wardy?

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