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I dont think parts were a motivating factor I really believe its part environmental and part consumers rode and bought them because they were far easier to go fast on. People began pushing back when engines blew and they saw the repair bill or (like me) noticed the 4's just werent as fun to ride moto or in the lushious hills of beaumont. I have far more fun riding my rm 250's than any 450 or 250f but thats just me and only myself speaking. A capable rider on a 250 2 stroke could still compete in SX easily with a good engine and suspension. Remember I said a capable rider, it takes a lot more skill and mistake free talent to ride a 2 stroke at full tilt boogie and in SX these riders can take many more fast or creative lines than the "One Lined" tracks .... My theory s that the one lined stuff comes from the 4 stroke because there is a harmony fast line that all 4 strokes run and not much deviation from it due to the way the engine works (accel and decel) a 2 stroke does not use the same line therefore they can make their own fast line that is far and away from being used by a 4 stroke....again just a theory
Argument 1: "I like two strokes."
Argument 2: "I like four strokes."
That's this thread in a nutshell. As previously stated, I personally am a fan of 2 strokes, mainly because I own one and can afford to maintain it.
Things that should make anyone in their right mind laugh...
1. Bike makers are not in this for the money or parts sales!? lol
2. 4 strokes are better than 2 strokes in any way(cc for cc)!?? (not considering the unfair cc rules everyone will agree are not right) ELL OH ELL!
3. The EPA made the big 4(Try Honda's business plan) make the switch!? hell no ell!
4. Consumers chose to buy 4 strokes!? really? I guess, when you cant buy a 2 stroke your ONLY other choice is to take what is incentivised, pushed and marketed heavily.
Anyone who thinks 4 strokes were not pushed on everyone or that it was the consumers choice just has their head in the sand or is obligated or being paid to say so.
Anyone who wants an easy to ride bike could have simply taken a 10 year old KX500 and put a heavy flywheel weight on it shoved a rag in the carb and added fifteen red bricks to the top of the motor and had an easy to ride bike without all the expensive headaches. A heavy bike that gets traction because of it's weight and lack of power does not mean it is better!
Just the fact that 4 strokes ever made it to the level they are now proves what the Japanese and Europeans have been saying for years. The american consumer is ripe for the picking with some shiny marketing and bigger is better wash. well congratulations to the american consumer. You win the boobie prize.
Have you all NOT seen this South Park clip???!!!
Chinpoko Mon
Get More: SOUTH
PARKmore...
Understanding Engineers #7
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
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The 03 RM125: best suspension setup of all the bikes I own, I can ride it the most aggressive, for the longest amount of time, and is just plain fun. The down side is if the track is hilly, or sandy, or one with long fast sections, it's at a real disadvantage. It's cheap to run and fix. Also, a side note, it was a Davi Millsapps Team bike from that era
The 03 RM 250: Pro Circuit exhaust, 265 bore, the KYB suspension is not as good as the Showa, so that's my only problem with it, I may switch it over if $$ allows. The 250 is much easier to ride since with the mods I've done, you can rev it or torque it around. I torque it mostly to control wheelspin and keep it from jumping around. I'm sure as I get my suspension better, this won't be a problem. It clears doubles alot easier than the 125. It pulls hills almost as strong as a 450. If the track has longer straights or big jumps, I can go faster on the 250, but again, the extra power and weight tire you faster, and you have to brake harder, which wears on you. With the steel frame, like the 125, you don't wear out as fast as a aluminum frame bike.
The 04 CRF 450: FMF exhaust, upgraded suspension and heavier springs. A beast. Fast, smooth, but it wears you out. I think that if you are young (or Old) and in shape, and you have the skills
The new current trend of track designs favor the 4 strokes now, and the jumps, etc, a 450 can damn near jump anything, and I think most average riders can't use a 450 to it's max. After riding my 450, it does make me lazy.
At my local practice track, which does not have big doubles, or real long straights, lots of switch backs, tighter turns, good inside lines, I ride the 125 the fastest, the 450 slowest, and the 250 the easiest.
With that, I think 4 strokes are here to stay, as far as AMA pro SX/MX racing goes...........old guys don't count
I'm jus' sayin'...
On a lighter note, I was at Perris tonight and a dude told me it was even fun just riding behind my 250 2smoke and it ripped
2T42 wrote: A truly hilarious thread so far! lol.
Things that should make anyone in their right mind laugh...
1. Bike makers are not in this for the money or parts sales!? lol
2. 4 strokes are better than 2 strokes in any way(cc for cc)!?? (not considering the unfair cc rules everyone will agree are not right) ELL OH ELL!
3. The EPA made the big 4(Try Honda's business plan) make the switch!? hell no ell!
4. Consumers chose to buy 4 strokes!? really? I guess, when you cant buy a 2 stroke your ONLY other choice is to take what is incentivised, pushed and marketed heavily.
Anyone who thinks 4 strokes were not pushed on everyone or that it was the consumers choice just has their head in the sand or is obligated or being paid to say so.
Anyone who wants an easy to ride bike could have simply taken a 10 year old KX500 and put a heavy flywheel weight on it shoved a rag in the carb and added fifteen red bricks to the top of the motor and had an easy to ride bike without all the expensive headaches. A heavy bike that gets traction because of it's weight and lack of power does not mean it is better!
Just the fact that 4 strokes ever made it to the level they are now proves what the Japanese and Europeans have been saying for years. The american consumer is ripe for the picking with some shiny marketing and bigger is better wash. well congratulations to the american consumer. You win the boobie prize.
All that being said, I do think part $$ potential may have had a small influence on the push for 4 strokes. Just a small one.
oddly , we still can get a new 2 stroke today.
and also find out a 2 stroke could be made to be a non poluter machine.
so,FUCK EVERYONE!
Plus, a lot of the blown 250 4-strokes don't get fixed because they are not worth the money it takes to fix them. e-bay is full of them being parted out.
I'd check the set-up on those 2-strokes you're sending out. I have owned welll over 100 of them and have never had more than a handfull of them go down.
I'm a 2 stroke fan, but understand why everyone chooses 4 strokes. They are here to stay and I except that. With all that said I will keep on riding my 2 stroke because that is my choice and preference. People who want to ride 2 strokes should get one and be happy, the same goes for the 4 stroke crowd.
Second point, someone stated a 4 stroke only fires 1 time per 2 strokes 2 times. That is incorrect. It actually does fire every revolution. Unfortunately, due to the fact that they are inefficient, the fire doesn't have anything to burn.
Carry on...
Oops, one more thing to think about. How many microwaves, fridges, etc last 30 years now? OEM's have found that making a product that doesn't need to be fixed or replaced, doesn't make them money. So sorry GuyB.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Related to crankshaft revolution, a two-stroke fires once per one complete revolution of the crankshaft, but the 4-stroke requires 2 full revolutions. So, someone might say that a two-stroke fires twice for every once that a four stroke fires, when related to crankshaft revolutions.
Pit Row
BTW, Honda actually started 450's in 2002. I had one.
Thanks for setting things straight........
The years don't really matter, it's common knowledge that Honda sets the AMA rules.
You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually early in 2001 as 2002's. You were clearly wrong again. It's really no big deal that you were wrong.
You are not correcyt on your allowed cc's for 4-strokes in the 250 class as well, but I'll let that slide.
I am about as far from a smart ass as you'll find BTW.
I'll have to go through my meeting notes.......on second thought......it doesn't matter that much to me.
Maybe they're really diesel engines with not spark plug.......come on guys.....you're killing me.....
I'm guessing most arguing here, if they actually race, would race the vet class - you can run whatever you want! 2 stroke or 4 just ride it and/or race it and have fun! 125/250/500 2strokes and 250/450 4-strokes, I love riding them all. What is most competitive in an open cc class? I think it comes down to the rider more than the machine.
And here's something to argue into the ground: I'm pretty sure Honda tried to develop a next-gen 2-stroke and realized it was getting more complicated than a 4-stroke...
If the OEMs actually made the damn things and kept them up to date with the 4s. If you could walk into a Suzuki dealer and get an RM or RMz and they had a similiar chassis and suspension, that would be great.
but you cant. you get either a 8,000 dollar BNG YZ, or you drive across the country to find one KTM, at full price. Or, you get a craigslist clapper. TM? Super cool bikes, but I would like to see, and sit on something that I am about to spend close to 8500 bucks for, not look at it in a catalog. Husky? same thing. Ossa? do they even exist? Seen photos, but never seen one being ridden.
Service Honda? AJ does the best he can and charges what he has to charge as a small operation, but his prices are not close to OEM because he does not have the manpower or overhead to compete with them.
So this whole "just buy what you want to buy and ride it" theory is completely and totally erroneous. That would be like telling a 4T guy to just "be happy" with a 2002 YZ250F.
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