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The US mx crowd forgot that professional motorsports are about development. Every motorsport in the US is "works" or handmade except mx. Why?
When it comes to MX the US homonation rule stands in the way.
In the states K-Roc and Marv would/will do really well on the 350 in premier class given the type of riding style that 350 demands, especially with 250f's running almost the exact and sometimes faster laptimes.
Just my opinion
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in every category, and price. the only thing that the 350sxf proved to me is that a ton of people really have drank the 4-stroke kool-aid.
30lbs heavier. less HP. more expensive. let that soak in. had you told people that 10 years ago, they'd have laughed and bought a 250 two stroke, but for some reason, these days, a bike that is 30lbs heavier (thats like riding with an entire bag of dog food shoved up under the gas tank) 1500 dollars more expensive, and makes less HP, sounds like a GREAT idea.
THIRTY POUNDS.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out, even MXA said those exact words. But as we know if you are a good rider, the track is suited to smaller cc displacement you can win (Villopoto MXON)
Ride what you want but trying to say the KTM 350 has a weight or power advantage or any advantage over a Honda 450 is crazy.
Sure there are dumb riders out there that will buy the marketing, or those who will get paid to shove this experiment down our throats, but in the end it will go the way of the KTM linkless suspension in MX. KTM, KTM marketing and fanboi's just don't know it yet.
The power to weight ratio v handling etc is very interesting - An outstanding 125 win in bigger class one has to take more risks makes for entertainment - All Championship long Not so easy ( So hats off for Cairoli for taking up the challenge )
Its fun running a 125 against 450's they have to brake much earlier while on the 125 you have it still wide open - Its an elastic band effect.
This is Long but interesting on the current subject ( 125 250 500cc ) With Views of the Period - MXDN 1986 http://youtu.be/ThwCQAM2-Sc
I loved watching this MXDN 03 when Ricky passed Everts down the straight and gave him a long look and then went and put anther 11 second on him :-) - That was 250 2T against 450 4t was it not ?
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/RICKY-ANSWERS-THE-QUESTION-WHO-…
Happy New Year
I am guessing but if one built a statistical graph that represented rider age size skill globally that 350cc would probably fit more than any other displacement 4 stroke motor for a mx bike - Elite MX ( ie AMA ) it would be 450 -
Its like Spring weight - What is the average weight of an MX rider ?
I remember in the 80's Honda XR's there was an xr200 xr250 xr600 - XR200 had the best power to weight ratio of all three - XR250's downfall was it was too heavy for 250 4t .
Good on KTM for going back to old concepts - However 350cc needs to weight less than current 250 4t - Well at least less than a Honda CRF450 4T
It seems KTM is marketing the 350 hard parts style ! However Dungey actually wants to win so he went 450 - Short had to play marketing game and his career went backwards a step - He used to rock the Honda and Hope he does well again this year - Cairoli has a good thing going with the KTM350 "Works" bike program in Europe - Keep going for it ! It is marketing and KTM is small enough to do 125/150/250/300 2t - 250/350/450/525 4t - Nice selection
Maybe Technology evolves enough that a 350 4t power gets 450 like before the eco machines take over .....
a) still better than them when they were on 450's
b) weren't in the 450 class yet
c) out due to injury, not completing a full season
Short finished last year in 8th on 196 points completing only 18 races. Lets assume he didn't get injured, and finished the season on about 260 points, putting him in 7th (almost 6th).
The people who beat him:
Weimer - new to the class
Alessi - hard to say
Metcalfe - Beat him last year
Reed - Beat him in 2009
Dungey - Beat him last year
Villopoto - Out due to injury in 2009/2010.
Yeah, it may have hindered him a little. But really, he would have ended up in the exact same position anyways.
It was a poor decision for KTM to hire Short with all the big players in the running in 2011. They should have realised that he wasn't going to do better than 6th place; and after coming 2nd/3rd in 2009/2010 it was always a risk to put him on a new bike and making it look bad.
R R on a kx HIS DAD BUILT WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. ........................
Read what Shorty has to say at MXA's site in a mini-interview. He doesn't trash it, but.....well I guess he kind of trashes it, but in a really nice way.
Pit Row
KTM are the most enthusiastic of all the brands towards the sport,and in some tough times,so best of luck to them
It does not matter if Cairoli's bike is a 309 or a 409. It's World Championship motocross and the US homonation rule does not apply. Shit run different size motors for each moto based on track conditions if necessary.
- They sold more 350's than 250f's.
- It is KTM's best selling model.
- Sold 4 times more 350's, than 450's.
Only a pure Marketing Genius would give up on the 350 "Experiment"... LOL
As for Alessi.. Look at him. He's ten times the rider I'll ever be (Maybe not in SX Lol!) but I don't think anyone should listen to his opinion! He rode the KTM 450 in 07, "It's the bike holding me back", rides the suzuki in 08 and 09 "It's the bike holding me back" , back on KTM but the 350 same again, but this time specific to the 350 and this past season, same again but to KTMs in general.. Keep in mind that the last two years, the 350 has been pretty dominant under Cairoli. Also at the USGP of 2010 and in testing, mike couldn't have been happier with the 350! He's just passing the blame onto the bike because he hasn't lived up to anything he said he would. "Believe the hype?" "Believe the sh*te" Is more like it.. Now he's back on the Suzuki, which despite slagging it off for two years, is suddenly the best bike he's ever ridden!! He can't even win petty supercross events arranged by peasants, which I swear some of the competitors were riding their farm yard animals!! I can guarentee it'll be the same again for 2012! I'm not saying the 350's a good bike what so ever.. But don't listen to the Alessi's, you'll end up with an ear full of sh*t.
For Short: He had high hopes and expectations for 2011. But when you were a top 3 guy in 2010 and 4/5's of the 'top 5' were just chucked back into the mix along with 250 champs, you're automatically going to be a top 10 guy from then on! I love Shorty, but I am yet to see him pass RV, Dungey, Reed, Bubba or Trey in a race, let alone for the win! So, taking into account that he's finishing in the same position as he would have in 2010, if it weren't for injuries of other riders etc. I'd say, the 350 isn't as bad a bike as everyone is making out!
As for power to weight ratio. The 350 engine is heavier than a 250, but lighter than a 450. The displacement is the same. More than a 250, less than a 450. I'm, sure you know one of the main quotes from riders who have ridden it, is something along the lines of: "It's lighter and easy to move around than the 450, so it takes less effort and saves my energy... bla bla.. Also the power is like my old 250, it's more nippy.. bla bla.." (Take into account Roczen was quicker than 19 of the fastest 450 riders in the world, on a 250!!)
Marketing it? Cairoli? Winning championships means more demand for the manafacturer. So when Cairoli goes out and wins, people buy that product! Look at the 150 2 stroke! I'm sure everyone wrote them off prior to actually riding one. 2/ 3 years down the line, it's like he #1 selling two stroke. The 350 will pick up at some point. It's target market will be older riders who say the 450's too much, but the 250 doesnt have enough power (why I don't know).
Essentially (not literally), they're selling bikes that are fitted with bore kits. People buy bore kits all the time, so why not have a bike off the show room floor that already has more power? It also widdens KTM's line up. Which if the money those guys have been throwing around lately, compared with a brand like suzuki or Honda (Who are in big trouble, but only have two adult bike in their line) I'd say the wider variety and choice of bike tactic is working! Especially as the only new bikes I've seen in the last two months are 12' KTMs (mainly 2 strokes) and maybe 1 or two Kawi 450's.
Personally: "Forget 4 strokes completetly. Bring back 2 strokes" is my answer to the 350.
First, I see very few KTMs for motocross at any track. I see almost no 350s. You start looking around at some of the motocross race pictures like holeshots, you start asking yourself, why do we see waves of blue, red or green but no orange.
So the only thing I can think of if this is true. The are saying KTM outsells a any single Japanese company in offroad bike bike sales. That would include 2 stroke, 4 stroke, and trail bikes.
When you say they sold more 350s than than 250s, is that motocross only? Because to be honest, I have never seen a 250 KTM 4 stroke motocross bike so that is not saying much.
Only a pure market genius could make people think that KTM 350 motocross/SX bike in America outsells a Yamaha, Kawasaki, or Honda MX 450F. It would seem that you believe the hype, find out where these numbers are and what they really mean. Are these world wide, are they talking about trail bikes and combined 250 2 stokes, what does the really mean.
If you think about in and if you actually go to any local races, and I know you have a brain, think about how many KTMs you seen on the starting line, then think about how many KTMs. Do you see a wave of KTMs in any class other than the 65 class?
I lend much more credibility to MXA. The figures I gave are from MXA:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/MXAS-2012-KTM-350SXF-MOTOCROSS-…
I don't know the numbers, but would be confident in guessing only a small percentage of off-road bikes ever touch a motocross track. At off-road events (Worcs, Desert, Woods, the Red Bull Challenge, etc.), KTM's are all over the place. The article is not clear on whether the numbers are American or International (one sentence reads "American Public", but then other's seem more blanket figures). Clearly it would be easiest to believe, if the numbers are international.
The observation was the 350 "Experiment" was over. That's a blanket statement, not related specifically to American Motocross (believing that's where you would try to turn the arguement).
I don't have any reason to doubt the MXA article & your expert observation doesn't add any inclination for me to do so.
The more wins.. The more demand.. Look at the RC days. He rides Kawi. Everyone rides kawi! He rides honda, everyone rides honda. At the end of 05' everyone was like "Suzuki wtf" (much like you and KTM at the moment) but sure enough. Everyone rode suzuki and it was the best bike.. And so on!!
As KTM are the only company willing to development all the time! And actually spend money to ensure they are #1.
Yamaha have no factory team. Suzuki don't really anymore! Honda are far from the superpower they used to be.. KTM has brought anyone who is worth having. Regardless of the price! They will take over in a few years!
The way I see it..
Cairoli + the 350 have beaten Pourcel (on a Pro circuit 450) this year. Before anyone starts with the "Pourcel is sh*t" remarks. Think back to 09 and 10. If it wasn't for bike trouble in 09, that guy would be US champ. Automatically silencing you're voice! Dungey won 2010, because of morale and confidence. If things had ended the other way round, Pourcel could have taken that and it could have led him to supremacy in the 450 class in 2010.
And the "They are not production bikes." Applies to every factory bike. Hence 'factory bike'. So what's with some goons on here, trying to say that only the factory 350 is different to the one you can buy!! Uhm, yeah. Sorry I forgot you can go to any dealer and pick up a completely factory Kawi!!?
The 350 was developed by Everts! If his track record is anything to go by, the 350 is a good bike. Cairoli has won the last two years on the thing with no development!! Honda have like what, 3/4 years development on their 450 and their championship record with that bike= 0
So whats wrong with it exactly? Mike Alessi blamed it for one year of his failed career?
Instead of laughing, hating the bike. You should scratch your head and go: "Cairoli has beaten all of the US's best, he still continues to win on the 350. The bike obviously isnt a factor..?" Or aplauding KTM for actually being innovative and developing new things! Especially as everyone does when they redevelop their 2 strokes..
Regardless of it's capacity. If a bike had just led you to two championships and you had your employer asking you (bribing? you? $$$$) to ride it instead of the bigger bike, wouldn't you? I can't understand the argument..
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