Wheel lacing question...

DrSweden
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DrSweden
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 10:00am
Will fix some black rims to my CRF (you JT people can sod off LOL), and going to lace them up myself, done this before but wonder if one will save me some time by letting the spokes sit in the hub (by taping over crossing of the spokes), or will that in a way reduce the risk of getting a bad deal out of using old spokes?

Then on the other hand it will be hard polish or paint the hub? Smile

Any input in this matter would be nice to read in the off season vacuum.
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Excracingteam.com 12/20/2011 1:10am
12/20/2011 1:10am
I did just that, and it worked just fine..
Then tighten them by every third and you´ll be golden!.. ehrr, i mean black.. ehrr.. i mean.. ready.. you´ll be ready.. Smile
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 1:37am
12/20/2011 1:37am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
I did just that, and it worked just fine.. Then tighten them by every third and you´ll be golden!.. ehrr, i mean black.. ehrr.. i mean...
I did just that, and it worked just fine..
Then tighten them by every third and you´ll be golden!.. ehrr, i mean black.. ehrr.. i mean.. ready.. you´ll be ready.. Smile
Tighten them by every third? You tight one spoke and skip the two following and continue like that until they are all good? How did you measure if the wheel was true and centered?
Excracingteam.com 12/20/2011 2:06am
12/20/2011 2:06am
i put the wheel axle in a vice (gently) so i could spin the wheel and see if it was straight..

Jag gängade i alla ekrar lite i nippeln, så att hjulet satt ihop igen.. sen spände jag dom lite i taget, alla lika mycket, o i början behöver man inte köra var tredje, bara se till så hjulet håller sig rakt..
På hjulen jag gjort så kunde nippeln täcka nästa hela gängen på ekern innan de började spännas ordentligt..

När sedan alla börjar bli spända så började jag spänna som du sa, spänn 1 hoppa över 2 osv.

du får snurra hjulet måånga gånger o spänn lite i taget.. juh mer tid de tar, desto bättre blir det i slutändan.. bara fråga om du undrar nå mer.. Lycka till!

And thats how the squirrel beat the dragon..
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 2:29am
12/20/2011 2:29am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
i put the wheel axle in a vice (gently) so i could spin the wheel and see if it was straight.. Jag gängade i alla ekrar...
i put the wheel axle in a vice (gently) so i could spin the wheel and see if it was straight..

Jag gängade i alla ekrar lite i nippeln, så att hjulet satt ihop igen.. sen spände jag dom lite i taget, alla lika mycket, o i början behöver man inte köra var tredje, bara se till så hjulet håller sig rakt..
På hjulen jag gjort så kunde nippeln täcka nästa hela gängen på ekern innan de började spännas ordentligt..

När sedan alla börjar bli spända så började jag spänna som du sa, spänn 1 hoppa över 2 osv.

du får snurra hjulet måånga gånger o spänn lite i taget.. juh mer tid de tar, desto bättre blir det i slutändan.. bara fråga om du undrar nå mer.. Lycka till!

And thats how the squirrel beat the dragon..
Cool, tnx! Did you bother to see if the wheel was totally centered? I noticed when I built a previous set a few years ago, that the biggest issue was to make the rim fit in the "middle" and to define what's middle/center really is... The rim should stay in the center of the hub I assume, but that can actually be a bit tricky to figure out if you don't have a perfect set-up in the garage. I assume one easy way to find out was to put the wheel in the forks, or in the swing-arm and measure from one side to the other, meaning going from the beed of the rim to the side of the swing or fork and assuming the other side should be the same. But that means you need to rely adjuster blocks in the rear, that they are tuned in correctly, and the CRs and CRFs wheel axel set up is a bit strange in front with two different spacers...

Well, I'm sure I will figure it out! Smile

The Shop

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Excracingteam.com 12/20/2011 2:34am
12/20/2011 2:34am
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to be straight.. assuming all parts are straight to begin with..
mtl
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mtl 12/20/2011 3:16am
12/20/2011 3:16am
why not get it all together and have a shop true the wheel for you? A qualified mechanic should take no more than 1/2 hour of labor per wheel. Thats probably $70 well spent.

I do all my own stuff, cranks, valves, etc but dont trust myself with getting a wheel true and have a mechanic buddy do it for me.
TeamPropainTurbo38t 12/20/2011 3:20am
12/20/2011 3:20am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to...
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to be straight.. assuming all parts are straight to begin with..
So wrong....even new sokes aren't that consistent....and try being that consistent tightening fine threa 4mm sokes
Excracingteam.com 12/20/2011 3:30am
12/20/2011 3:30am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to...
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to be straight.. assuming all parts are straight to begin with..
TeamPropainTurbo38t wrote:
So wrong....even new sokes aren't that consistent....and try being that consistent tightening fine threa 4mm sokes
The wheels i made was straight enough for a swedish MX championship win, but i guess your right.. my bad..
RaceFace
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RaceFace 12/20/2011 4:21am
12/20/2011 4:21am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
i put the wheel axle in a vice (gently) so i could spin the wheel and see if it was straight.. Jag gängade i alla ekrar...
i put the wheel axle in a vice (gently) so i could spin the wheel and see if it was straight..

Jag gängade i alla ekrar lite i nippeln, så att hjulet satt ihop igen.. sen spände jag dom lite i taget, alla lika mycket, o i början behöver man inte köra var tredje, bara se till så hjulet håller sig rakt..
På hjulen jag gjort så kunde nippeln täcka nästa hela gängen på ekern innan de började spännas ordentligt..

När sedan alla börjar bli spända så började jag spänna som du sa, spänn 1 hoppa över 2 osv.

du får snurra hjulet måånga gånger o spänn lite i taget.. juh mer tid de tar, desto bättre blir det i slutändan.. bara fråga om du undrar nå mer.. Lycka till!

And thats how the squirrel beat the dragon..
DrSweden wrote:
Cool, tnx! Did you bother to see if the wheel was totally centered? I noticed when I built a previous set a few years ago, that...
Cool, tnx! Did you bother to see if the wheel was totally centered? I noticed when I built a previous set a few years ago, that the biggest issue was to make the rim fit in the "middle" and to define what's middle/center really is... The rim should stay in the center of the hub I assume, but that can actually be a bit tricky to figure out if you don't have a perfect set-up in the garage. I assume one easy way to find out was to put the wheel in the forks, or in the swing-arm and measure from one side to the other, meaning going from the beed of the rim to the side of the swing or fork and assuming the other side should be the same. But that means you need to rely adjuster blocks in the rear, that they are tuned in correctly, and the CRs and CRFs wheel axel set up is a bit strange in front with two different spacers...

Well, I'm sure I will figure it out! Smile
I once made a jig out of blocks of wood and plywood with a hole where the axle would sit. The idea of this was to build it so the original wheel sat flush on the blocks both at the rim and hub, with the axle in place in the jig. Then you can undo the spokes and remove the original rim and sit the hub back in the "jig", place the new rim in place, and install all the new (or old?)spokes, gradually tighten and be very close to where it should be and just need some finishing truing touches. It worked pretty good.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 12/20/2011 5:36am
12/20/2011 5:36am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2011 5:57am
You really need to be using a truing stand.

To measure the center, use a long straight edge resting it flat on the surface of the outsides of the hub. You can then use a tape measure to measure from the outside edge of the rim to the straight edge.

If you take your time and pre-tighten the spokes in an even manner as you put the spokes back in, the rim should automatically fall fairly close to the hub's center. However if you do tighten the spokes unevenly, it's going to pull the rim. Then when you go to measure for your center spacing, it's easy to have a wheel that's 1/4" out of true so your center measurement can fluctuate greatly depending on where you take the measurement from.

Taping the spokes at the "x" is a good idea for first timers because it will help you line things back up with the new rim and you won't have to worry about the crossing pattern. Another thing i would recomend is to take some pictures of your spokes before you un-lace the wheel so you have something to refer to about counting the pattern in case something gets messed up after you take the wheel apart.

Lacing is one of those things where it's pretty difficult to do at first, but after you do a bunch of wheels it becomes really easy. Truing is a very tedious process and it can be frusterating. If you don't get it right, you are constantly going to be fighting loose spokes and can even feel vibrations as your wheel spins if the wheels are far enough out of true.

I'm not discouraging you from doing it yourself, but make sure you take the time to do it right. You really need to invest in a truing stand and a spoke torque wrench. You're also going to need a dial indicator gauge and a magnetic base to mount to the truing stand for measuring trueness on the rim edge. I can usually get a wheel set true within + or - 0.010 if the rim is nice and true and i'm working with a nice set of hubs. If you're using used spokes and used rims, it will be tough to get anything better than + or - 0.015. I can't stress the truing stand enough....it will make your job 100x easier.
JOHN CHOATE
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JOHN CHOATE 12/20/2011 5:42am
12/20/2011 5:42am
Just laced and trued my new BLACK rims recently and was pleasantly surprised how easy it was. I found if you just tighten each spoke a little at a time, it will basically true itself. The first set of wheels I did I put the wheel back on the bike (without the tires) and used a crayon to mark any side to side wobbles. After tightening each spoke a little at a time, I only had to fine tune about 4 or 5 spokes to get the rim perfect.

I am really glad I did this myself. It was no big deal and I have actually laced and trued up several friends/customers wheels since.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 5:42am
12/20/2011 5:42am
mtl wrote:
why not get it all together and have a shop true the wheel for you? A qualified mechanic should take no more than 1/2 hour of...
why not get it all together and have a shop true the wheel for you? A qualified mechanic should take no more than 1/2 hour of labor per wheel. Thats probably $70 well spent.

I do all my own stuff, cranks, valves, etc but dont trust myself with getting a wheel true and have a mechanic buddy do it for me.
Partly because I'm underpaid and therefore cheap, but mainly because I like doing stuff myself and consider this challenge as part of this hobby... Smile
Roscoe33
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Roscoe33 12/20/2011 5:48am
12/20/2011 5:48am
listen to this guy ^^^ (this is sounds like real experience.)

"You really need to invest in a truing stand and a spoke torque wrench. I can't stress the truing stand enough....it will make your job 100x easier."

Good Luck !
Excracingteam.com 12/20/2011 5:49am
12/20/2011 5:49am
JOHN CHOATE wrote:
Just laced and trued my new BLACK rims recently and was pleasantly surprised how easy it was. I found if you just tighten each spoke a...
Just laced and trued my new BLACK rims recently and was pleasantly surprised how easy it was. I found if you just tighten each spoke a little at a time, it will basically true itself. The first set of wheels I did I put the wheel back on the bike (without the tires) and used a crayon to mark any side to side wobbles. After tightening each spoke a little at a time, I only had to fine tune about 4 or 5 spokes to get the rim perfect.

I am really glad I did this myself. It was no big deal and I have actually laced and trued up several friends/customers wheels since.
No, im sorry, teampropaneturbo says it doesn´t work that way.. so you too must be wrong.. Smile
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 6:00am
12/20/2011 6:00am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2011 6:02am
mxtech1 wrote:
You really need to be using a truing stand. To measure the center, use a long straight edge resting it flat on the surface of the...
You really need to be using a truing stand.

To measure the center, use a long straight edge resting it flat on the surface of the outsides of the hub. You can then use a tape measure to measure from the outside edge of the rim to the straight edge.

If you take your time and pre-tighten the spokes in an even manner as you put the spokes back in, the rim should automatically fall fairly close to the hub's center. However if you do tighten the spokes unevenly, it's going to pull the rim. Then when you go to measure for your center spacing, it's easy to have a wheel that's 1/4" out of true so your center measurement can fluctuate greatly depending on where you take the measurement from.

Taping the spokes at the "x" is a good idea for first timers because it will help you line things back up with the new rim and you won't have to worry about the crossing pattern. Another thing i would recomend is to take some pictures of your spokes before you un-lace the wheel so you have something to refer to about counting the pattern in case something gets messed up after you take the wheel apart.

Lacing is one of those things where it's pretty difficult to do at first, but after you do a bunch of wheels it becomes really easy. Truing is a very tedious process and it can be frusterating. If you don't get it right, you are constantly going to be fighting loose spokes and can even feel vibrations as your wheel spins if the wheels are far enough out of true.

I'm not discouraging you from doing it yourself, but make sure you take the time to do it right. You really need to invest in a truing stand and a spoke torque wrench. You're also going to need a dial indicator gauge and a magnetic base to mount to the truing stand for measuring trueness on the rim edge. I can usually get a wheel set true within + or - 0.010 if the rim is nice and true and i'm working with a nice set of hubs. If you're using used spokes and used rims, it will be tough to get anything better than + or - 0.015. I can't stress the truing stand enough....it will make your job 100x easier.
Another good answer. I don't have a truing stand, it would help out of course since you then constantly would true and lace without having to take the wheel off all the time to do new measurements. I now remember using a straightedge as well, and managed to find an bolt that was 1/2 the total sum from both rim sides to the straightedge, which helped me checking the right space/distance.

This whole process made me unsure, I started questioning if the hub was symmetrical as they had different shapes on each sides and how I then had to really measure from spoke holes etc. The satisfaction though was when I put the wheels in the bike, and saw that the distance from the swing-arms and the forks where the same. So my calculations paid off!

I don't get how you can lace wrongly? If you get all spokes in, you have done it right no? The only way you can screw up is by using the wrong sides of holes, but that means you get the wheel totally of center and the next 16/18 spokes cant reach their holes?
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 6:04am
12/20/2011 6:04am
RaceFace wrote:
I once made a jig out of blocks of wood and plywood with a hole where the axle would sit. The idea of this was to...
I once made a jig out of blocks of wood and plywood with a hole where the axle would sit. The idea of this was to build it so the original wheel sat flush on the blocks both at the rim and hub, with the axle in place in the jig. Then you can undo the spokes and remove the original rim and sit the hub back in the "jig", place the new rim in place, and install all the new (or old?)spokes, gradually tighten and be very close to where it should be and just need some finishing truing touches. It worked pretty good.
Sounds good, the poor mans version of the truing stand! Me like! Smile
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 6:05am
12/20/2011 6:05am
Excracingteam.com wrote:
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to...
if you go slow, and equally, the spokes will sort that out for you.. if all the spokes are tightened the same amount, it has to be straight.. assuming all parts are straight to begin with..
TeamPropainTurbo38t wrote:
So wrong....even new sokes aren't that consistent....and try being that consistent tightening fine threa 4mm sokes
Excracingteam.com wrote:
The wheels i made was straight enough for a swedish MX championship win, but i guess your right.. my bad..
Smile Tnx for you input mate!
mxtech1
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mxtech1 12/20/2011 6:20am
12/20/2011 6:20am
"Another good answer. I don't have a truing stand, it would help out of course since you then constantly would true and lace without having to take the wheel off all the time to do new measurements. I now remember using a straightedge as well, and managed to find an bolt that was 1/2 the total sum from both rim sides to the straightedge, which helped me checking the right space/distance.

This whole process made me unsure, I started questioning if the hub was symmetrical as they had different shapes on each sides and how I then had to really measure from spoke holes etc. The satisfaction though was when I put the wheels in the bike, and saw that the distance from the swing-arms and the forks where the same. So my calculations paid off!"

You're not quite thinking about it in the right way. BEFORE you pull your old wheel apart, you need to measure it from the hub using the straight edge and tape. Take the sprocket and brake disc off. Measure from each side of the hub and write these numbers down. When you get done with your wheel, it needs to match these measurments. These measurements from each side take place of a centerline measurement through the hub and rim.

Most dirt bikes will have no rim offset, meaning the centerline of the rim usually falls on the centerline of the hub. but if you start doing street bike rims (Harley's) with offset rims, the wheels have certain spokes with different bends that will cause the rim centerline to lie more towards the drive sude of the hub. This is usally done to align the hub drive with the countershaft.

Pit Row

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seth505
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seth505 12/20/2011 6:23am
12/20/2011 6:23am
I don't have a truing stand so I just used my other wheels as reference and mounted the new wheels I was building to the bike as I trued them. You need to go slow/be patient but it worked great.
JOHN CHOATE
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JOHN CHOATE 12/20/2011 6:55am
12/20/2011 6:55am
JOHN CHOATE wrote:
Just laced and trued my new BLACK rims recently and was pleasantly surprised how easy it was. I found if you just tighten each spoke a...
Just laced and trued my new BLACK rims recently and was pleasantly surprised how easy it was. I found if you just tighten each spoke a little at a time, it will basically true itself. The first set of wheels I did I put the wheel back on the bike (without the tires) and used a crayon to mark any side to side wobbles. After tightening each spoke a little at a time, I only had to fine tune about 4 or 5 spokes to get the rim perfect.

I am really glad I did this myself. It was no big deal and I have actually laced and trued up several friends/customers wheels since.
Excracingteam.com wrote:
No, im sorry, teampropaneturbo says it doesn´t work that way.. so you too must be wrong.. Smile
Laughing

On my second set of wheels I actually used a homemade wheel balancer deal made out of pvc tubing. It was a little easier that way. I too like doing things myself and this was definitely worth it.
bogdan912
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bogdan912 12/20/2011 7:04am
12/20/2011 7:04am
I just re laced my back wheel a couple of weeks ago. I've got a truing stand, your best bet without one would be to put the wheel(all spokes in but still loose) in the swingarm and tape crayons to the swingarm pointing at the rim. All wheels are different, but for me I was able to tighten each nipple until each spoke had no threads showing, this was a good starting point and I just trued the wheel from there. It took me an hour start to finish. Some wheels I've done in the past you can't go to the last thread, so I would go to the 3rd thread and then start truing from there.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 7:14am
12/20/2011 7:14am
Cool people. I just figured I will polish my hubs before doing this. So the new thing is to figure that procedure out totally! Smile
Motodrew295
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Motodrew295 12/20/2011 9:38am
12/20/2011 9:38am
I recently did a set of rims on a budget as well. I had a wire wheel on a bench grinder for the hubs and stock spokes I reused. That did well then I used a smaller wheel in a drill to get all the nooks and crannies of the hub. Didn't polish them but shined up the cast aluminum nicely. I watched a video on YouTube of a guy lacing up the rim and it went really fast. maybe 10 mins apiece. I had a mechanic buddy true them up, He said they basically trued themselves...just like some others have said. I just wasn't confident in that area yet, but will probably tackle that next time. I'll just throw the axle and wheel on the bike and use that as my truing stand.
50dippin
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50dippin 12/20/2011 11:35am
12/20/2011 11:35am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2011 11:35am
My truing stand consists of cut zip ties around the swingarm, this method works pretty well for me as long as you cut the zip ties properly and make sure the wheel is evenly tightened down in the swingarm. Torque spoke wrench is key tho.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/20/2011 2:57pm
12/20/2011 2:57pm
mxtech1 wrote:
"Another good answer. I don't have a truing stand, it would help out of course since you then constantly would true and lace without having to...
"Another good answer. I don't have a truing stand, it would help out of course since you then constantly would true and lace without having to take the wheel off all the time to do new measurements. I now remember using a straightedge as well, and managed to find an bolt that was 1/2 the total sum from both rim sides to the straightedge, which helped me checking the right space/distance.

This whole process made me unsure, I started questioning if the hub was symmetrical as they had different shapes on each sides and how I then had to really measure from spoke holes etc. The satisfaction though was when I put the wheels in the bike, and saw that the distance from the swing-arms and the forks where the same. So my calculations paid off!"

You're not quite thinking about it in the right way. BEFORE you pull your old wheel apart, you need to measure it from the hub using the straight edge and tape. Take the sprocket and brake disc off. Measure from each side of the hub and write these numbers down. When you get done with your wheel, it needs to match these measurments. These measurements from each side take place of a centerline measurement through the hub and rim.

Most dirt bikes will have no rim offset, meaning the centerline of the rim usually falls on the centerline of the hub. but if you start doing street bike rims (Harley's) with offset rims, the wheels have certain spokes with different bends that will cause the rim centerline to lie more towards the drive sude of the hub. This is usally done to align the hub drive with the countershaft.
Damn I missed this one before. Good point, the wheels I previously build, I got the hubs only in my hand though, so I couldn't use the previous set to find the correct centerline. In this new case I will use the stock wheels, with the possibility to do what you suggest. I think I managed to find the previous centerline though? Still, since I was forced to buy longer spokes for one side, I probably managed to screw things up anyway. Still, the wheel lined up correctly between the fork tubes? Whatever...

I got myself a second chance! Smile
zookie
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zookie 12/20/2011 8:28pm
12/20/2011 8:28pm
DrSweden wrote:
Will fix some black rims to my CRF (you JT people can sod off LOL), and going to lace them up myself, done this before but...
Will fix some black rims to my CRF (you JT people can sod off LOL), and going to lace them up myself, done this before but wonder if one will save me some time by letting the spokes sit in the hub (by taping over crossing of the spokes), or will that in a way reduce the risk of getting a bad deal out of using old spokes?

Then on the other hand it will be hard polish or paint the hub? Smile

Any input in this matter would be nice to read in the off season vacuum.
Lacing a wheel is easyyy. No need to tape. Spokes will point to the hole the have to go into. If you have to force them, you have it wrong.

Grease spoke threads and the spot where the nipple touches the rim.

Tighten each spoke a couple turns at a time evenly until the wheel is just slightly, barely, slightly snug and stops moving

True wheel.

Go around one lap tightening each spoke quarter turn.

True again.

Go around one lap and tighten each spoke quarter turn again.

True again.

After a few laps tension will be close to perfect and the wheel will be perfectly straight.

I have probably built well over 200 wheels this way. Takes me half an hour or less to breakdown, lace, and true.

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